Was the term "daraba" sneakily turned to "beating" by hypocrites?

Mazhar

I have glanced through excellent discussion on the question whether or not Allah, the most merciful, has allowed beating one?s wife but it seems that the matter is scattered at other places. Therefore the points towards which I am going to draw attention of friends may or may not have been discussed earlier. If these have been elaborated, I may be excused and told about the reference of those contacts.

In the verse, the apprehension, fear is merely about ?Noshoozohunna?. Similarly wives can fear ?Nashoozan? or even husband?s indifference. Such a situation can be caused even by very trivial matters/difference of opinion.

Husbands are advised to tactfully handle the situation

1- fa'izu_hunna ?When it so happens (Fa), advise them with love and affection. (if it yielded no result then)

2- wahjuru_hunna- move/separate them away (hijr)- where they are made to go/part/separate? Hijrat always involves physical separation.

3- fil mada_ji Inside your bedroom-
Here permission is to separate them inside the bedroom, not separating her to some other place in the house (ba it). Bedroom is the place where husband and wife meet (it is for them majma al bahrain-meeting point of two rivers) and so long they live in their bedroom all members of the family in that house know that they enjoy good matrimonial relationship. At this point things should be kept between wife and husband to resolve the problem themselves.
Even after this, the situation does not improve; natural next step would be to separate her from the bedroom (wahjuru hunna an il mada ji) into the house so that everyone in the house/family comes to know about existing bad relations between this couple.

4- wadribu_hunna.
Immediately after ?wahjuru_hunna- fil mada_ji? was there any need to add words ?min or an il madaji? after wadribu_hunna??

There is no denying that the word ?Zarb? is used, 9 or 10 times out of perhaps 58 times, with reference to physical striking, 4-5 times with reference to Asa of Musa a.s. I cant? understand why an Arab would always immediately take it for beating only ignoring its major use (48 times) in the Quran Majeed for other purpose.

?Zarb? is used going out, the end result is separation/segregation from family.
?Zarb? is to create demarcation/separation (Hadd-e-Fasil)
?faduriba bainahum bisu_r?
? A partition/separation (duriba) shall be made between them with a wall? (Refer 5713)

?Zarb? makes things distinct/separate. Missal is ?yazrebo? because Missal makes things distinct and clear.

During the discussion a friend also referred 482. If we insist that wadribu_hunna is beating the wives, how could it be reconciled?
Ya_ ay yuhal lazina a_manu_ in na min azwa_jikum wa aula_dikum aduw wal lakum
O ye who believe! truly among your WIVES and your children are some that are your ENIMIES

Friends will agree that a wife ?guilty? of Noshooz is much less a ?criminal? than the other wife who is Enemy. If the ?punishment? for Noshooz is beating, the enemy wife should be liable to much harsher punishment. Let us have different perception and understanding about our conduct about wives because Allah has directed
fahzaru_hum wa in tafu_ wa tasfahu_ wa tagfiru_
so beware of them! But if ye forgive and overlook and cover up (their faults)
{I lament this translation does not depict the beauty of words used in ayah-someone may try to give us translation that nearly match the depth of the words used}
This is the only place in the whole of Quran Majeed where these three words have been used jointly.

In the presence of this direction how wadribu_hunna could be translated and understood as beating wives. Beating is not allowed even to that husband who is 100 percent sure in his doubt about the bad character of his wife. As compared to that Noshoozhunna is too small a thing.

After the husband has separated his wife from the bedroom into the house, it is like beating the drum that matrimonial relations of this couple are at stake. This will create the fear of their permanent separation. In such a situation, further advice to handle the deteriorating matters is given 435. If every thing fails, the natural result will be divorce and end result again final separation ?Farqoohunna?.

May Allah bless everyone.

Samia

Salaam mazhar

Good job!

As I understand it

Talk to her
Keep away from her in the bed room
(so far, the matter is kept private)
Take the matter to a different level declare it by seperation (or just declaration as in "daraba masalan" by telling other family members/friends) which will logically lead to
case being discussed by members of the two families.

Mazhar

Thanks sister,
Thanks for giving a scholar's summary. Easy way to explain in short time.

ILisa

Greetings Samia and Mazhar---

Many thanks and blessings to you both for clearing this issue up once and for all; showing us how God's law does indeed = rationality which, in the end, always prevails! bravo

siki

Dear brother Mazhar

welcome aboard. What i understand of your post is , First separate in the bedroom , but remain in the bedroom so that people do not know it , then you just separate, so people get to know it.

which people in the house one is trying to show this situation ? most of the families only consist of you ,and your children ,are you trying to show it to your children? and if there are some close relatives around (mother father , brothers etc) , do you think that they would not know/sense it when the situation has reached to this level that you have deserted her in the bed/bedroom?

wahjuru_hunna- fil mada_ji This simply means , what we know in english as " we are no more sleeping together" weather you still share the double bed, or the room ,or not , doesn't matter. God is describing in a decent language to the husband that , stop being physical with the wife.

Moving away could mean, that one could be moving out to a different room or house , but yet one can come back or get physical pleasure when he desires.

Brother this step recommends, that husband should withhold physical intimacy. Using this as an argument to make room for "another step, which is ("darab as separation" to make people aware of your estranged relationship&quot is incorrect in my judgment.

However i am willing to discuss in detail about the use of "Darabuhunna" in this ayah and grammatical implications of different meanings in context with this situation.

The ayah 4-82 mentioned by you is incorrect.

peace

siki

Mazhar

Brother siki, Salam.

482 was referred to highlight the question of consistency and equity. If a husband has two wives, one is ?guilty? of Nashooz and the other wife happens to fall in the category ?enemy?, then is the Law Book prescribing physical ?punishment? for a lighter ?crime? and showing mercy for a bigger crime by ignoring it and even directing that even don?t point it out to your wife about her ?guilt?. Who would accept this sort of law rulings?

It is accepted principal that while reading any book, the reader has to restrict himself to the words used. We may perceive anything, but reader can?t say that such and such thing was in the mind of author and he wanted to say such and such thing. Words indicate the intention of the author. ?Wahjroohunna fil madaiji? will certainly result in the breaking of ?physical contact?. But we need not say nakedly ?stop having intercourse with that wife? since this message is built in the words used. It in itself clarifies that ?wadriboohunna? does not mean beating. Had negation of ?Basheroohunna? used here instead of ?Wahjroohunna fil madaiji? only then one could insist that Idriboo means physical beating and not separation. Viewed from any angle, the ayah does not suggest or allow beating. Beating or hurting somebody is not the prerogative of an individual. This is the job of the society, not individual husband. All translators and Muffasserin after saying that it means ?physical beating? don?t. forget adding, apologetically, that it should be very light, flowery beating. My sympathies.
Quran e Majeed is for all mankind. Many people live with their families, not only wife and children. That is why Allah has advised putting restriction on all small and adult members of the family including servants not to disturb the privacy of husband and wife during three times. Matrimonial relation is private and personal affair but the whole world knows when a man and women enter into marriage that they will perform it. This is the perception of marriage but we don?t say that marriage is for that purpose. If they are not performing, no other member of the family can come to know about it unless the wife is removed from the bed room into other area of the house which would immediately reflect that ?that connection? is broken. Breaking of that ?connection? is always perturbing for other members of the family who otherwise little care about exchange of harsh words/skirmishes between husband and wife. Breaking of that connection is always reflected in subtle manner and words.

peace4life

Salam,

The theme of the verse in question is really this If you don't trust your wife, then leave her temporarily. Otherwise there will be disasters. It's really about the male psychology and Allah knows best.

I've never read Hadith. I don't believe that anyone has the right to elaborate on Allah's words. Allah doesn't run out of words and His book is clear and perfect for sincere believers.

Please download the document attached. You might be surprised! sun

I strongly advise those who know Arabic to pay careful attention to the language used in the Quran. I also advise those who don't know Arabic to cross-reference and understand Allah's values because these do not change.

PEACE

siki

4-34 , and 4-128 both deal in case of Nashooz by either spouse. lets analyse these ayahs

Nashooz is, illtreatment, to look down upon, to care two hoots about, thinking of other person not worthy of ones status,having a damn care attitude,persisting with a humiliating attitude and hence creating a situation for other party where he/she is unable to carry on in a healthy relationship.

4-34 deals with Nashooz of wife and 4-128 handles the husband's Nashooz as well as desertion

In both, situation is same by either of the spouse , but Modus operandi recommended by HIM is quite different, why? Because they both are different(or in a different position) and that is why recommendations are not the same.

In case of 4-34 ,

First she is being advised / admonished to correct her behaviour,

If this fails she is being deserted in bed

Then she is,,,,,,,,,,,?

And finally if every thing has failed , matter is being refereed to the elders or arbitrators to intervene , counsel , and if that fails to improve the situation, they may recommend to terminate the liaison(4-35).

In case of (4-12 husband's Nashooz or /and desertion of the wife, she is not being told to

Advise or admonish the husband.

Neither she is being told to withhold sex.

Nor it is recommended to "Darraba".

The matter is straight way being refereed to elders for counselling.

please ask yourself this question why this drastic difference in recommendations , where as the situation is similar?

peace

siki

siki

Brother Mazhar

peace

So you agree with me that wahjuru_hunna- fil mada_ji means to desert her in bed chamber , or to stop having physical/sexual relations. so how else you wanna separate from her ? because further separation would amount to leaving that house and moving out by the husband.

How do you wanna implement this separation, "daarrabu hunna" , leaving the house hold and kids at the mercy of ,,,,,neighbours, i suppose,,? just to give a message to the close ones that your relationship has reached a breaking point, so have mercy, and intervene? If those people have to be made aware off , aren't there some easier methods ? In todays society how much is the percentage who live in a joint family?

I am more than willing to accept this as any thing, other than striking here in this verse , but then you have to be very logical and convincing, so for, this theory is a NO NO,

siki

siki

Dear peace4life

greetings

So you mean the "English" picked the "ON STRIKE" meaning of having a temporary break for the black mail purpose, from Arabic, and that also from Quranic Arabic of this Aya ?

OH ya ! if that is true ,and you can prove it , well , we have hit a jack pot.

siki

peace4life

Salam,

Yes, the word is definately strike. But has nothing to do with hitting. It means to leave something temporarily with strong determination or provide something (with strong determination). As when Moses left his stick temporarily and Allah provides examples.

I don't know where hitting comes from. Definately a strike. It's the only thing that can solve R/Ship problems. Deep analysis of the language in the verse proves this.

If otherwise, then Allah would say something like "aathuhunna" (hurt them).

PEACE.

Elke

Peace all

Rida thank you for your strike document !

Siki, i wouldn't call it "black mail purpose" but cool down period.

lk

peace4life

Salam Siki,

Yes it seems like the English may have taken the "Strike" Action from Arabs.

The strike tactic has a very long history. Towards the end of the 20th dynasty, under Pharaoh Ramses III in ancient Egypt in the 12th century BCE, the workers of the royal necropolis organized the first known strike or workers' uprising in history.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action

All that doesn't matter. If you understand Allah and what He values / doesn't value ... you'd know what He means automatically. Think about how it works practically too to give you a life of peace. (remember there are no linguistic barriers for sincere believers).

Thank you for reading my article. sun

Salam.

el-Aziz

The arabic word "D-r-b" word is exactly equivalent to...

A. the english word "beat".

where "...to beat upon someone" means
I. leaving someone, abandoning someone
II. hitting someone

B. english "hit"

...which has the exact same meaning as A

When push comes to shove it's a matter of what fits the context best. I know what I see it as.

Mazhar

Brother siki.

Somewhere you had said earlier, that a place should be shown where this word has been used in the meaning of separation. I had mentioned
?faduriba bainahum bisu_r?
? A partition/separation (duriba) shall be made between them with {b}) a wall? (Refer 5713)

May I also invite to another point that
fa qulnadrib bi 'asa_kal hajar(a),{Refer 260}
Traditional translation is like this "Strike the rock with thy staff."
Flow of water of spring remains stopped because of a rock lying on its exit point. If the rock is pushed aside, removed to create a separation between the spring point and rock, water will gush out. Is it not more proper to translate it like this ?Push aside/away the rock/stone with your stick?.

What Musa a.s actually did when Bani Israel had to cross red sea.?

adhrib lahum thariqan filbahri yabasa (Ref 2077)
Its traditional translation ?and strike a dry path for them through the sea?

The true meaning of ?adhrib? could be ascertained from what had actually happened.

Fa auhaina_ ila_ mu_sa_ anidrib biasa_kal bar fanfalaqa fa ka_na kul lu firwin kat taudil azim Then We told Moses by inspiration "Separate the sea with thy stick." So it separated and each separate part became like the huge firm mass of a mountain. {And in between a dry passage was created as a sequel} (Ref 2663)

Here ?Falq? has been used. This fact of separation is also explained in different words?

Wa iz faraqna bikumul bahra {Ref 250}
Can it be denied that faraqna is to separate? If Allah says I did ?faraqna?, then why what was told to Musa a.s. should be considered different from it. Would it not be creating ?Farq? between Allah and his Rasul? A thing prohibited.

siki

Brother Mazhar

Greetings

lets first sort out all the side issues, and then we will thrash this Darab,(Zarb in urdu) in detail.

Dear elke

peace sis

when i used this word strike for black mail, actually i was using the definition what peace4life had written in the document explaining the "on strike " term by some union.

And oh yes ! this cooling off period is important, and had i been dishing out the instructions , i would have definitely written , " kick her out of the house HUNNA" and if she does not have a place to go, MOve your own butt out" because it certainly works, but i am more interested in finding out the correct meaning of the word " Darabuhunna" in this ayah.

peace4life,salam

word by word translation of an idiomatic phrase, from one language to another( with retension of its original meaning) , is a very rare occurrence .

peace

siki

peace4life

Salam Siki,

I did not explain strikes by unions. You can strike against anything work, food, friends, family, anything. It just means to LEAVE something or give up something with strong determination as to achieve results. (As when Allah LEAVES us examples with strong determination). It also means to SEPARATE.

Back in prophet's days, the word does not seem to mean Hit at all. Aathuhuma (hurt/punish them) is the word that I see most likely to mean Hit back then. As in

416 If two among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.

I don't see anything idiomatic about the verses (434-35). You FEAR something from the wife (she may or may not be doing something wrong) you tell her what's going on and you avoid sexual contact and you threaten her with leaving. If she responds (gives you attention and security) you seek no path against her, if she doesn't you leave and send judges to represent both parties.

There is no point of a R/ship where a man is insecure/has fear from his wife that's why action has to be taken. I don't see any steps! I don't know why they made up steps. Allah doesn't say thumma (next), He says AND.

((Next = thumma - as in 176 and 955))

But what's really interesting is this A mad is insecure... He will threaten with LEAVING!
But when a woman is insecure she is to actually try and get CLOSER to the man. Sobhan Allah (the opposite action here).

If a woman senses oppression or desertion from her husband, the couple shall try to reconcile their differences, for conciliation is best for them. Selfishness is a human trait, and if you do good and lead a righteous life, GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do. (note the verse after this discourages polygamy)

These are both hypothetical situations (if you fear this...)

So what I see is this (as the underlying message)

Men have insecurity = give her less attention
Women have insecurity = give him more attention (with the help of the man - 2 way action)

These, plus breaks if worse comes to worse, seem to be the strategies to solve R/Ship problems. They are designed to give positive responses from the partner. They will not work for everyone surely, because couples may have other priorities (money, greed, etc.). Couples can also have lots of other complicated issues (problems with in-laws, feeling oppression, etc.)

But to Allah belongs everything in the Heavens and Earth and no one can own anyone else (see values in 4130 - 4134).

Think deeply about these things in a practical sense and see if they give you a life of peace.

Salam peace

siki

Salam Siki,

I don't see anything idiomatic about the verses (434-35).
I don't see any steps! I don't know why they made up steps. Allah doesn't say thumma (next), He says AND.

Dear peace4life

salam

I agree whole heartedly with your recommendations regarding rescuing a derailed marriage. I am quite certain that hitting her would most likely deteriorate the situation further, but sister i am interested in finding out the correct meaning of this word here in this ayah.

Of course there is nothing idiomatic about the verses 4-34 an 35, what i meant was that you are pasting the idiomatic meaning of English word ON STRIKE back in to Arabic , and that also the classical Arabic of Qurran, this methodology never works between any two languages.

I am quite surprised that you do not see/find any steps in 4-34 ??? which are not there in case of husbands Nashooz. Even if it is not NEXT and is And ,it does not make a difference. God is leaving it for the husband to use either, or all of these in any given situation/for a certain type of woman.

peace

siki

peace4life

Salam

I agree whole heartedly with your recommendations regarding rescuing a derailed marriage.

They're not my recommendations. They're Allah's - straight from the book! Whatever He says goes.

you are pasting the idiomatic meaning of English word ON STRIKE back in to Arabic

Pay attention to the verse If she responds then seek NO PATH (sabeela) against her. If she doesn't then obviously you do the opposite! that's why the meaning is clear in context, no matter how much people try to mess with it. You leave her temporarily with strong determination, unless she responds.

If seeking a path/way (sabeela) against her is metaphorical then you're doing that by avoiding her, avoiding sex etc. But it looks literal because Allah says SEND judges (so it looks like edhrebhunna straight away means take a temporary break away from her with determination).

Let's assume that we misunderstand Allah and think that seeking a path (sabeela) against her is metaphorical and means "be her enemy, be against her, hit her!" ... does that sound like Allah to you? is that one of His values? and most importantly, would this actually solve problems? He says that between couples there is "affection and mercy".

God is leaving it for the husband to use either, or all of these in any given situation

You want the wife to respond and give you some kind of comfort/security/respect. How can you have that if you don't do ALL that Allah said. Can you choose to leave her temporarily, but still come back every now and then for sex? what's that going to solve? can you try negotiating with her in order to achieve results but be distracted with sex?

They are not necessarily so-called STEPS. The people who made up this STEPS business did it because they wanted to prove that hitting a woman is ok as a last resort. I see that you actually do them all one by one ... most importantly see if wife responds if man tells her he's going to leave her.

By the way, the husband's Nashooz is a different story. If a woman tries to avoid sex with him or try leaving him then disasters will happen. She is thus advised to negotiate with him.

As I said before, if you understand what Allah means then His strategies should work practically to give couples a peaceful marriage. I know it is an important issue for people with marital problems. That's why I'm asking all to think deeply about how these verses would actually work for you or other couples.

The biggest misunderstandings are that the verses about Nashuz are really about men and women's insecurities, and they're hypothetical situations for "IF they FEAR" something. No crimes have actually been committed.

peace

kassana

Sometimes there is a need for a shock-therapy by beating her lightly and she comes to her senses

Yes, that makes sense, the good old days when a irrational woman incapable of stringing together a sentence because of her heightened emotions - turns out all she needed was a good slap. In return she would thank the man whilst fluttering in his manly gaze. The good old days. P