Mohsannat? A new understanding(very imp)
-
Peace,
I'll made this short as I see many have commented and i have not read everyone's comment.
Muhsanaat is from husn (a fort)
Muhsanaat means Fortified or deeply and strongly settled
So looking at Muhsanaat means looking at the concept of woman who are fortified or strongly settled. That can mean older women, free-women(as opposed to servantude), and pious i.e. chaste woman.
It is a general concept that can refer to different kinds of woman but it's root is in this woman having deep and strong roots religiously, in society, in age etc.
Godbless,
Anwarpeace anwar
it is nice to have you on this thread brother, i strongly recommend that you go through my replies starting from 77, to 98 on page no 6 of this thread.
God bless you
siki
-
Dear siki
Thanks. I had glanced discussion on MME. I have again gone through it, and also downloaded for detailed study.
The discussion on MME still not explicitly clarify. I wanted to study step by step to come to some conclusion whether or not sex out side Nikah could be considered permissibe as has been advocated for centruies by many, to pave and give way to debauch rich segments of muslim society.Some treat it "contradiction" if at one place Mohsanat is translated as "protected women" and at other "married woman". But that is not the case. The basic meaning of the root would always prevail in whatever manner a word made from that root is used. And Hasn basically gives concept of protection. So long a woman belonging to independent (not slave) family is not married she is amongst Mohsanat since she is protected (in society in the fort "Hasn" of her family). And this particular woman and all other women whether slaves/servants become Mohsanat when enter into Nikah since men are allowed only to look for women as MOHISINEENA, i.e. one who make her amongst Mohsanat. Asad's interpretation/perception of "or" does not solve the problem. We cant' assign our own meanings to words and statements of Quran e Majeed.
Mazhar -
Peace,
Samia, I agree with you in the MSA sense, but muhassan in the MSA sense also means immunized. In Old Arabic (and even in the dialects and standard Arabic to a great degree) muhsan has a synonymous meaning with muhassan. Like awsaa and wassaa. Remember Old Arabic usually has much wider meanings than Standard Arabic meanings. It would seem that Wehr's dictionary disagrees with you. But I don't as I now that these two forms can be used interchangeably. Muhsaan & Muhassan in the sense of immune is fortification of the body. Like hasaawnatun/Ihsaawn.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Can you explain this in more detail so I can understand better? (?m7San? and ?M7aS-San? I thought they are from the same root)
Salaam warner
They are from the same root, but not the same verb form
mu7San <------ verb A7Sana (form IV)
mu7aSSan <----- verb 7aSSana (Fom II)A7Sana is the same verb used in verse 2191. It is not "protected/preserved) as there is another verb used in the qur'aan for this meaning 7afatha "wal 7aafithuuna furuujahum wal 7aafithaat".
Immune from not wanting/can't or unable to have sex. Mary did not want to mary, but she was made to change her mind and go against the traditions of her people, that's why God says "she immuned her private parts from not wanting to have legal sex/ a7Sanat farajaha"
-
Peace,
Samia, I agree with you in the MSA sense,
Godbless,
AnwarThis is not MSA sense. It follows strict rules of derivatives, which are respected by the qur'aan AND the spoken language. a7Sana and 7aSSana have different meanings, and these ar the two verbs from which the two active participles are derived. Why should they have the same meaning? God used the word "Mu7aSSana" in 5914. He definitely knows there is a difference because there is.
-
Peace Samia,
Well than tell me why in Chapter 2 (249 and 250) where the Quran says najjainaakum min aali fir&awna (II form) and then uses the fourth form anjainaakum in the next passage to mean exactly the same thing. Like I said these two forms have one connotation that they share in common which makes them synonymous in this sense. This is the same with awhsana and hawssana. In Wehr's you will have hassana as immunize and awhsana as to make chase. And I've experienced personally how form 2 and 4 can be used interchangeable especially in different colloquial Arabics. (alot of time form 4 will get regularized into a from one). And many times you can see it in the dictionary that form 2 and form 4 are used with the same meaning like najjaa and anjaa, and the difference in the two versions of the quran one having wassaa and the other awsaa. Let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill here. Form two and form four have synonymous meanings and distinct connotations. Hawssana and awhsana and najjaa and anjaa are examples of these synonymous meanings. I guess you guys in Sudan use ihsaawn for immunization, but I'm sure I can ask a Levatine or Gulf Arab and they'll tell me its tahseen and swear by God it is not Ihsaawn. So let's just understand as we can see with thousands of words that form 2 and from 4 can mean the same thing.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Salaam warner
Immune from not wanting/can't or unable to have sex. Mary did not want to mary, but she was made to change her mind and go against the traditions of her people, that's why God says "she immuned her private parts from not wanting to have legal sex/ a7Sanat farajaha"
can't we use a better word to describe the red sentence?
if you protect your sexual parts , or kind of lock them , from use( all kind weather legal or illegal) what are you? A virgin , i guess...and when you are desirous of protecting yourself from the illegal usage of related organs, one is trying to be chaste.
siki
-
Peace Samia,
Well than tell me why in Chapter 2 (249 and 250) where the Quran says najjainaakum min aali fir&awna (II form) and then uses the fourth form anjainaakum in the next passage to mean exactly the same thing.
Salaam Anwar
Form II "f33l" indicates repitition or intensity, example kasara to break, kas-sara to smash. Same goes with naj-jaa and anjaa (the second is form IV which makes an intransitive form I transitive).The first of the two verses says explicitly how God repeatedly saved them from the killing by the Pharaoh and his clan. This torture continued for years, and those who are living and being addressed have definitely been saved many times through their fathers (saved) and the fathers of their fathers (saved) and them (saved) and their children (saved). It was an ongoing process of saving generation after generation.
The second verse speaks of one incident parting the sea, hence the usage of "anjainaakum".Hope this helps.
-
Salaam Samia
Thanks for the explanation.
592 and 5914 with the meaning of fort/fortified are they of the same form?
Salaam warner
7uSuun is plural of 7iSn, from which comes the root 7Sn; mu7aSSan is the derived participle of the verb 7aSSana, (/fortify)
Did I answer your querry? -
Salaam progod
There is no Law book before the qur'aan that we can refer to as to how verbs and derivatives were used, to support what I think or to support what you think. All we have are different forms of verbs/words derived from the same root. No root has got all 10 verb forms derived from it. But knowing how languages develop, it inconceivable that a language would invent a word or derive a verb that it did not need because it already had the meaning expressed by an already existing word/verb. This is why linguists reject the notion of the perfect synonym. In a book of Law authored by God, we should understand even more that different forms of words/ verbs are not chosen arbitrarily but for a purpose.
-
Peace,
I'd like to know more about those linguists ideas, in particular rejecting perfect synonyms. I think this is the opinion of some linguists not all linguist. Furthermore, I don't know why you are mentioning Law book when we are talking about grammar rules. If you want to talk about the law we follow that is one thing, but if you are talking about the usage of language and verb usage we cannot really get this from the Quran we can only get clues. Can you tell me the difference between najjaa and anjaa for instance?
These verbs don't form in all 15 of the patterns because sometimes there is no need for them. However, a verb could be applied in all those patterns if we take the connotations and mean them. We are not talking about standard language here but fluid langauge that uses its own forms(remember dialects and msa are derivatives of this original Classical Arabic). Someone can say kaddhaba and istakdhaba and they could mean the same thing, but we also know that these forms have meanings that they don't share as well. Kadh-dhaba could mean to falsify as well as to think something is false and istakdhaba could mean to look for the falseness in something (to undermine) as well as to think that something is false.
I know that najjaa and anjaa could have some difference (najjaa could mean to save alot of people and over and over again) and anjaa just a one time save. Najjaa could also mean to declare something safe, it could also be connected to najwaa(secret/closed meeting). However here najjaa and anjaa are synonymous in their meaning. I don't want to argue linguistic theories here as there are too many to count. However, I think my point is proven with najjaa and anjaa in the Chapter 2. Do you see a difference between these two usages in meaning?
Godbless,
Anwar -
I don't want to argue linguistic theories here as there are too many to count.
Salaam
Sorry, but you can't avoid linguistic theories if you want to understand the meaning of a word that is going on for 10 pages now. If you have a better way, we are all eager to know.Do you see a difference between these two usages in meaning?
Do you have any problem with this expalnation
Form II "f33l" indicates repitition or intensity
The first of the two verses says explicitly how God repeatedly saved them from the killing by the Pharaoh and his clan. This torture continued for years, and those who are living and being addressed have definitely been saved many times through their fathers (saved) and the fathers of their fathers (saved) and them (saved) and their children (saved). It was an ongoing process of saving generation after generation.
The second verse speaks of one incident parting the sea, hence the usage of "anjainaakum"
-
Peace,
I actually posted that before yesterday and it only showed up just today. I agree with your assessment on form II. However, I do know that these two forms CAN be synonymous and I will research some more to prove this to you. But this is a good assessment of what najjaa CAN mean.
As for the linguistic theories. Listen there are many, many linguistic theories out there. I took linguistics clasess myself. To point to one linguistic theory doesn't mean that there is not a similar linguistic theory to go to its contrary. We know of many cases in our spoken language where we use a word to mean the same thing and know it means the same thing. Sometimes the only difference between two synonyms is the status of the word (is it preferred because it sounds more proper, more patriotic, or because we identify with the word more because the word has some sort of history with our region, religion or people) For instance take 'to mean' and 'to signify' there is nothing you can say to make me think that these aren't perfect synonyms. The only difference is that one comes from latin and the other is a native English word. Latin as a language of education, gives this word more social status but they mean exactly the same thing.
When we talk about synonyms we have to take in mind that sometimes the only differences between synonyms have to do with status, or regionality and has nothing to do with meaning.
Godbless,
Anwar -
So far you did not present any discussion as for the difference between najjaa and anjaina , as I showed to you from the usage of verses you provided.
If you see that "signify" signifies "mean", which signifies that we can use them interchangeably, I better just stop here in my dicussion, becuase all this is "signifcantless".
Do you get what I signify? -
LOL! ;D
You got me on that one. What I signify and what I mean are not exactly the same, as you say perfect synonyms. I stand corrected here (though be sure that if I find one I will post it). But if I say 'this word signifies' and 'this word means' you know that these two USES are perfectly synonymous. So I can use two different words to mean/signify the same thing. Although they might not be 100% synonymous in every usage. I'll be thinking hard to find two perfectly synonymous words.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Salaam alaikum.
Can you please tell us what "bighaa" means in 2433 ? It cannot mean marriage as "marriage" is not "seeking to exceed lawful limits", but would actually be opposite of "bighaa" because it is remaining within lawful limits.
The law on marriage is that it should be consentual and not a forced marriage. Hence, a forced marriage indeed falls under "seeking to exceed the lawful limits".
It is not speaking about the men doing al-bighaa("seeking to exceed the lawful limits", but about forcing the fatayat upon it. If al-bighaa meant "forced marriage", what lawful limits would the fatayat be seeking to exceed?
Also, it doesn't make sense saying "do not force your fatayat upon al-bighaa" if al-bighaa meant forced marriage. It would read "do not force your fatayat upon forced marriage". Force is already mentioned. Therefore al-bighaa should have a meaning of its own, independent of the force already mentioned. And you know that the word "nikah" is more proper at conveying the meaning of "marriage". Therefore it cannot mean marriage either.
-
Salaam alaikum.
The law on marriage is that it should be consentual and not a forced marriage. Hence, a forced marriage indeed falls under "seeking to exceed the lawful limits".
It is not speaking about the men doing al-bighaa("seeking to exceed the lawful limits", but about forcing the fatayat upon it. If al-bighaa meant "forced marriage", what lawful limits would the fatayat be seeking to exceed?
Also, it doesn't make sense saying "do not force your fatayat upon al-bighaa" if al-bighaa meant forced marriage. It would read "do not force your fatayat upon forced marriage". Force is already mentioned. Therefore al-bighaa should have a meaning of its own, independent of the force already mentioned. And you know that the word "nikah" is more proper at conveying the meaning of "marriage". Therefore it cannot mean marriage either.
correct, these meaning were suggested by Ayman and supported by Arnold yasin , but we sorted that out in an old thread, Below you would find my relevent answers from the subject thread.
lately we thrashed the word mohsinnat and HSN in detail , there is no doubt that it is Chastity. and as "Bighaa" is used in contrast with " hsn " so in the context of the relevent verse , it definitely is prostitution, And prostitution only , it does not convey a broader meaning as described by Arnold yasin and Ayman in a previous thread.
Ahmad's arguments in the recommended thread were on correct line,
please go through the thread "Mohsinnats , a new understanding " in the same section.
However Fatayat is any young girl , she could be your MMA, (slave girl, which your right hand posses) servant, daughter, sister , niece etc, Any young girl who could be under an individual's(man or a woman) influence to be compelled into committing such an act.
In the subject verse though, initially the subject of address are MMA (slaves) however in the later part the use of the word Fatayat was not bounded/followed by MMa ( unlike the verse 4-25). as such opening up its application in general for all categories of young women.
another one
I do not agree with Ayman's view. please look at the following verses about Mariam,
19-20 She said When shall I have a boy and no mortal has yet touched me, nor have I been unchaste? (baghia)
19-28 O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot (baghia)
Context is very important in picking up the correct meaning of a word in a certain sentence, use of BGH when the subject is woman's sexuality, will be fornication/ lewdness/ unchastity etc, and in 24-33 when somebody/Guardian forces a young girl to commit such an act, would most likely press her to obtain some material benifit for himself. And we have word for it "Prostitution"
sikipeace
siki