My case for treating them as fictional...
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peace everyone
By "them" I mean the prophets. Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc.
The thing is, in the quran, god asks us for PROOF again and again ("...bring forth your proof if you are truthful...". But regarding these people, it gives us no proof of their existence.
To me, that means that the quran isn't trying to prove these people as actual people from history, and so we can safely assume that whether they existed or not is unimportant and irrelevant to the message of the quran.
So we have to look at them as characters in a fiction book. Everything they do, and everything that is mentioned about them, is for a reason. Everything is there for the underlying message.
Let's discuss.sincerely,
Kafir bound to hell and a clear cut enemy of Allah.
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Why do you need proof that these historical figures actually existed (there is plenty of proof by the way)? If you believe Abraham Lincoln existed, than why can't you believe Prophet Muhammad and Jesus Christ (Alaihum salaam) existed?
And also, the Holy Quran clearly says these Prophets existed, unless you are trying to say that Allah Taala is deceiving us. I hope you can see the very ice slippery slope you are dangerously treading with regard to your faith, a very serious matter. So I would like to ask you, why do you consider yourself a Muslim and why do accept the Holy Quran in the first place?
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Peace to all,
Yusha, I dont think Lobster considers himself a muslim, he used to be a traditional practicing one i think. I also disagree with Lobsters idea of treating them as fictional, why would they need to be Lobster,, if they are meant to teach us certain moral messages cant that happen if they actually lived and existed? Can we only learn from fiction and not facts? I believe they existed ,,as Yusha said , is God deceiving us by saying they were, didnt they find the Egyptian Pharoah of the Old Testament and dated him to the same time as the historical captivity of the Jews,, wasnt he dtermined to have died by drowning, just like the Quran says he would be preserved? How can the majority of Historians agree that these events actually happened, and many of the historical buildings, writings, artifacts, burial tombs, have all been found that fit into these biblical narratives, but somehow the main characters of Prophets didnt really exist, so the known history coincides with the religious stories we hear but the Prophets that played the crucial role in this proven history didnt really exist,, did history and all the historical figures revolve around a fictional fantasy,,, I dont understand Lobster.
LObster, I do think your a good person but be careful with too much questioning it becomes doubt,, a little scepticism is good but can lead to blind bias against any truth.
Kurt
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Salaam Lobster
Is your only case that you have no proof of their existence? Do you mean it is impossible that they existed or there is a possibility, just there is no proof? We need proof for something that is logically difficult to accept. What's so special about them that they defy the logic and cannot be real humans? They were pious people, and the qur'aan told us about other pious people who were not messengers. Do you believe that those other people really existed or not? What's the value of the message if there were no real people who did abide with it? I think we learn better from real life than from fiction.
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peace all,
Yusha,
can you please show me the verse where it says they existed? thank you.Kurt and Samia,
My point is this If the quran says that they existed, it should provide us with proof. It doesn't. It is us who go out and look for it, but the quran doesn't give us anything. When proof is such a big deal, you'd expect more...And I'm not saying that there weren't actual people called Jesus and Moses or whatever. I'm not arguing that. I'm not saying they didn't exist. I'm just saying that the issue of their existence is irrelevant.
We go by what the quran has given us. We don't try to fit what we know into it. What people are doing is taking the Abraham of history, and trying to match him with the Abraham of the quran. Well, it'll never work.
There may be proof of their existence in other places, but what the quran (and only the quran) has given us is conjecture. So if you're going to believe that Moses actually turned a stick into a snake, or that Abraham looked up at the sky and studied it, then you are believing in conjecture.
Samia said,Do you believe that those other people really existed or not? What's the value of the message if there were no real people who did abide with it? I think we learn better from real life than from fiction.
I like to read fiction. I've read many novels. And I always find that although the characters in the stories aren't real, or at least we are told they aren't real, what happens to them and what they do is definitely related to real life.
If we look at the prophets as just characters. If we don't do any outside research into them. If we just go by what the quran has given us for once, we will find that there's a message to their story. They are symbols, just like in a fictional novel. Even though they are fake, they are real.
And fiction is much much better suited to teaching a lesson than real life, simply because everything in a fictional setting can be manipulated to fit the message and to emphasize it.
Now, I wouldn't be saying this if the quran had given us a thorough list of proofs of their existence, or at least gave us their last names, or gave us proof that they literally performed those miracles.And another thing, the belief in the quran's truthfulness or that it's been authored by God has to be a conclusion (going by quranic principles), not an assumption. We don't read a book with the preconception that it's evil or good or divine, we reach that conclusion after we have read it and studied it. So look at it like you would look at any other book, because that's how the author expected people to read it, and that's how I bet he wanted us to read it.
And Kurt, I know I am a good person.
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You know Lobster, since you like fiction, I recommend to you Naguib Ma7fouz's Novel "Boys of our Alley" known in English as "Children of Gebelawi", which earned him Nobel Prize and almost cost him his head in Egypt. Each of the boys has a story analogical to the story of one of the messengers. His idea is that every body is capable of being like these great men if they want, and make a difference in the life of the people around them.
It will not answer your question, but I always think of it when such a subject is discussed.
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peace everyone
By "them" I mean the prophets. Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc.
The thing is, in the quran, god asks us for PROOF again and again ("...bring forth your proof if you are truthful...". But regarding these people, it gives us no proof of their existence.
To me, that means that the quran isn't trying to prove these people as actual people from history, and so we can safely assume that whether they existed or not is unimportant and irrelevant to the message of the quran.
So we have to look at them as characters in a fiction book. Everything they do, and everything that is mentioned about them, is for a reason. Everything is there for the underlying message.
Let's discuss.sincerely,
Kafir bound to hell and a clear cut enemy of Allah.
peacebravo
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LObster, I do think your a good person but be careful with too much questioning it becomes doubt,, a little scepticism is good but can lead to blind bias against any truth.
I also read his introduction on the wall of shame. He is CCEOA....Alhamdulillah
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Lobby,why wouldnt 'god' tell folks lessons from real people in history?I personally find a real lesson form real people carries more weight than fiction,and surely god had all the examples in mans long history to choose from to make his underlying message apparent? If we say the quran is metaphorical or teaches by fiction then i would have to say is 'god' the author of confusion? I mean,metaphors/fictions can be interpreted to mean anything by anyone,and thus the objectivity and criterion status of the book disappears......
Also,this insistence on verification/evidence (which i agree with of course.) is counterproductive to the book because most folks cannot bring real evidence or verification for one god,never mind the quran.......This is where the 19 ers have a point (though only theoretical.) in that there should be some kind of protected infallible code to back up/verify the quran somewhat....
At least kyle only follows the parts of the book which he can verify....
Finally,if the quran wants us not to follow anything unless verified (1736.) then how can we have faith in the whole book(which is a requirement of the quran.) when it has not all beeen verified,and probably never will. (and thats without going into the parts which can be verified as wrong...)
Why would god give us intellect,heart and understanding,ask us to use them,and then doom us to hell/suffering when we use those faculties but come to a different conclusion....... ???
ps; being a good person has nothing to do with being religious....... -
(and thats without going into the parts which can be verified as wrong...)
Really? Start a thread on that, and list all these parts that are verified to be wrong.
I understand Lobster's point - though they may have existed, these people are relatively irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
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What,start a thread so you guys can give your subjective apologetics on every verse? For every verse you have 5 opinions,have you seen a stick turn into a snake by the way,or the verified benefits of lashing 'fornicators'?
Do you know the difference between 'faith' and verification? -
Lobby,why wouldnt 'god' tell folks lessons from real people in history?I personally find a real lesson form real people carries more weight than fiction,and surely god had all the examples in mans long history to choose from to make his underlying message apparent?
peace Enquirer, well first you have to ask the question, "did god write the quran?" The answer may very well be no.
And maybe the people are real. Maybe the author, whoever it was, searched through history for examples. But two things- even if we are supposed to believe these people are real, it is not an important part of the message. Actually, it's not part of the message at all. And the belief in these people is not belief in their existence, but belief in their example.
Stephen Colbert once said "I believe in America....I believe it exists." He is a comedian and that was a joke. - the quran puts so much emphasis on proof, but doesn't give us any. which only means that we don't need any proof to understand what it's saying. So obvisouly we don't have to believe in their existence.
Also,this insistence on verification/evidence (which i agree with of course.) is counterproductive to the book because most folks cannot bring real evidence or verification for one god,never mind the quran.......This is where the 19 ers have a point (though only theoretical.) in that there should be some kind of protected infallible code to back up/verify the quran somewhat....
Well, the quran says that god is the ultimate truth. So if we keep learning more and more through verification, we'll get there.
The 19ers don't have any point because even if there is a miraculous code (there isn't, and the fact that they have to take out verses to make it fit is pretty good proof of that, although there's more), even if that code proves that the quran is from a higher intelligence than human beings, we still don't know if it's true or not. Maybe that higher intelligence is an alien life form? maybe it's a god who is lying to us? Who knows? The only way to know if the quran is true is by verification. Period.Finally,if the quran wants us not to follow anything unless verified (1736.) then how can we have faith in the whole book(which is a requirement of the quran.) when it has not all beeen verified,and probably never will. (and thats without going into the parts which can be verified as wrong...)
I don't think it's a requirement. But like Kyle, I will only follow what I know is true from this book. There are things in the quran that, at least if taken literally, that I think just don't work. That doesn't mean I can't follow the other stuff or we can't try to learn from the rest of the book. If we have a source, we should take all we can from it.
ps; being a good person has nothing to do with being religious.......
I don't know.
OPF, I don't know if that was actually my point.
And thanks for the recommmendation Samia. Could you spell his name without using numbers? And I think I agree with him. We can all be like those great men. That's why they're mentioned.
- even if we are supposed to believe these people are real, it is not an important part of the message. Actually, it's not part of the message at all. And the belief in these people is not belief in their existence, but belief in their example.
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As normal lobby,your views are not concordant with those of any quran following fellow,except for kyle.....No wonder ahmed got upset..... ;D
However,i do feel you are stuck on the quran,i mean you seem to be trying everything to make it a decent book,even saying things which really are against the principles of the book,such as saying maybe god didnt author it,or such as only believing those part you verify,this contradicts having faith in the whole book(which the quran also seems to be suggesting in 1736,but this seems an internal contradiction so its not your fault!)....But anyway,i know you are a genuine seeker and an open-minded bloke.... -
peace enquirer,
I don't think I'm "stuck" with the quran, and if there's something that I know is wrong, I won't try to make it seem decent. But the thing is, I think the quran is saying something other than what some people believe, or at least it could be saying that, so I have to do whatever it is that I'm doing right now. I don't think what I said contradicts any of the quran's principles or ideas. The thing is, the quran tells us to believe in the truth, and it CLAIMS to be true, to have been inspired by god. So we have to test that claim.
thanks. -
Fair enough lobby,i did go through this phase myself for some time on this forum,i just dont want you to go round in circles or be scared of 'letting go'......It helped me to study theology and verify if that made sense,also do you still feel the quran can be objective and how would you go about finding its objective message.....?
Remeber,we can read what we want on to the book.....I do also feel you do go away from the general message of what most say the quran is saying...Maybe your a quranic mystic like kyle?
ps; i know we all need to go through our own research and journey,just feel i will give you some food on the journey... -
Peace Lobster,
while I agree that whether the stories are true or not is irrelevant but if you check the QXP translation Shabir quotes many examples to try and prove that the quran contains accurate history.
Whether he is going to be biased >D or >D misleading is something i don't know. I remember reading about the Egyption pyramids and historians say that slaves did not build them, but according to the Judeo-Christian tradition they were built by slaves, that's why so many people believe that they were built by slaves even though they actually won't.
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attributes are proven through their embodiment
Explain, please.
Angel,
while I agree that whether the stories are true or not is irrelevant but if you check the QXP translation Shabir quotes many examples to try and prove that the quran contains accurate history.
QXP says a lot of things that the quran doesn't say. I like QXP, but a lot of times it stops being a translation and becomes an interpretation/explanation, and the angle that's taken by Shabbir (and Arnold) I just don't agree with.
I think everyone's biased, at least a little bit.
The quran's like poetry. TO actually understand what the author was trying to say, we have to read it carefully, concentrating on each word individually and try (we can only try) to understand what the words meant to the author, not what they mean to others or to ourselves. It's really hard to do that, and with a book as old as the quran, I'd say nearly impossible. And even if one does read it without any biases or preconceptions, different interpretations are still possible. But as far as the quran being a moral guide goes, I don't think it matters what the quran is actually saying, as long as we believe in the right things.