Who built the kaaba that is in Mecca?
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warner
I like to inform you that I am not influenced by Aymans theory on this subject and do not accept it
Ok! good.
Warner
But most of Aymans refutations on the ?almost cubic stone structure? in Mecca S.A. and the pilgrimage practices around that place are correct since none of that has any support from the Quraan. I hope you open your eyes to the Quraan.
dear; if you have read my posts, you will clearly find out that I kept on repeating "After time of Abraham the piligrimage practices around Makkah were corrupted which were corrected by Muhammad and now again 1500 years have been passed and there are some corruptions or some sort of idol worship emerging and we should keep them pointing out" but that does not mean at all we start changing the House of Allah to place about which we ourselves donot know.
The number of real followers some Messengers had could be counted with fingers. I believe just as every follower of tradition, hearsay hadeeth , tafsirs and other man made books you are deluded away in these false propaganda. Because nothing you say has any support in the Quraan. You boast about numbers, established following, popularity, majority rule concepts. These are the exact arguments disbelievers threw at every Messenger. Just as the Jews and the Christians are deluded about the Temple in Jerusalem and Sinai the tradition followers are lost in their own falsehood and on what the shaitan has thrown in.
Come on ayman is'nt any messanger.
Warner
Since Britannica says Mecca is Bakkah, it has to be. Great argument. Why don?t you forward the Quraan to these world bodies and get their opinion that it is Gods words. Look up in Britannica for Abraham, Jesus, crucifixion and other numerous issues and you will know how good their research is. Britannica even gives you the place of Jesus? crucifixion. Britannica is not a research organization to verify scientific and archeological facts. Your blind following of books other than the Quraan has made you believe in Britannica without question. It is sad you chose Britannica to explain the Quran.
I think you donot study a lot, or if you do; you dont not the works of those who are well researched and have some ratings in the eyes of Scholars and masses.
No one is saying that Encyclopedia britannica or anyother research is error free and no one has claimed that but they have a reputation not for unattainable perfection but for strong scholarship,sound judgment, and disciplined editorial review. These practices are the foundation of any reliablereference work. Britannica undergoes continuous revision and fact checking. Their editors work unceasingly to reviseand improve the encyclopedia and to publish the results in a timely way. They work with thousandsof contributors and advisers around the world?scholars and experts all?and maintain a brisk cor-respondence with their readers as well. If they investigate any claims of error that come to their atten-tion, and when one is valid, they fix the error.
That is why I RECOMMENDED TO YOU AND AYMAN OR ANY WHO THINKS THAT MAKKAH IS NOT BAKKAH provide them the evidence and they will change it.
Remember the editors of encyclopedia are not Osama or Mullah Umer!It is sad that some of our viewrs donot know the importance of research work, you being one of them.
Now you giving me url of INFIDELS for your support just tells the story. It is similar to some one asking Bush regarding Osama's biography.
Haram is forbidden or restricted. How did it become Sacred.
I do not have a problem anyone expanding their mosque but my question is do we have to
Face this mosque when we do salat?Brother you are at very intial stage.
Therefore I asked you how will you translate it?Warner
Also Abraham and Ismael did not build a House or a Kaaba they ?raised the foundation from the House?.
Please read previous posts regarding this.
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Warner
Who grew Balsam in the uncultivable valley ?
ayman
But none of the people of the book interpret the term "bakka" as the town named Mecca. Some interpret it as a location near Jerusalem but most of them interpret it not as a physical place at all but as a metaphor for deep sorrow.
According to Classical Arabic dictionaries the word "bakka" in Arabic means competition and crowding.
The Anchor Bible Dictionary quotes
Baca, The Valley Of (PLACE) , The valley of Baca (Psalms 841) is either a historical place name or a symbolical expression for "deep sorrow". The first part of Psalms 846 seems to mean that by "passing through the experience of deep sorrow, righteous ones can make it the source of life." The Septuagint translated the phrase into Greek as "the valley of weeping". The word 'emeq "valley" has the root meaning of "deep", so the expression may mean "deep sorrow".
However, some have considered it as the "valley of the balsam tree" from the same word in plural form found in 2 Samuel 524. This is based on the assumption that baka may be a "gum-exuding tree". Another possibility is that the word beka'im (plural of baka) may mean "weeping wall-rocks" in the valley of Rephaim on whose tops David and his troops were waiting for the coming of the Philistine army passing through the valley below (2 Samuel 524). It seems safe to seek the meaning of baka in relation to the dripping water, since we often find this word in the names related to rivers and wadis, such as Wadi al-Baka in the Sinaitic district and Baca on the wadi in the central Galilee area, W of Meroth. It is also possible to understand beka'im as the place of "weepings" of the Philistine army for their defeat by David. After all these considerations, the expression of "valley of baka" can best be taken as a symbolic expression "weeping" or "deep sorrow" which fits well in the context of Psalms 846
The Jewish Encylopedia states
Baca, The Valley Of A valley mentioned in Psalms LXXXIV7. Since it is there said that pilgrims transform the valley into a land of wells, an old translators gave to Baca, the meaning of a "valley of weeping"; but it signifies rather any valley lacking water. Support for this latter view is to be found in II Samuel V23 et seq.; I Chronicles XIV14 et seq., in which the plural form of the same word designates a tree similar to the balsam tree; and it was supposed that a dry valley could be named after this tree. Konig takes Baca from the Arabian Baka'a, and translates it "lack of streams". The Psalmist apparently has in mind a particular valley whose natural condition led him to adopt its name.
Some say that because "Bakkah" is a word often found in names related to rivers and wadis, such as Wadi al-Bakkah in the Sinai, and Bakkah on the wadi in the central Galilee area, west of Meroth, the use of "Bakkah" could mean any similar area. This does little, however, to explain the use of the Bakkah when the verse is in context.
So ayman what is your stance upon the issue do you think it is a Metaphor? I guess this is your stance, then we will be heading towards the discussion held with ARNOLD YASEEN, where I asked him to please establish first or draw a clear cut line between Metaphoric and Literal Quran.
Further more all the other verses I mentioned before lead us towards it being a Physical place.
and even these tell us that some thing PHSYICAL is going on"So turn thy face toward the Sacred Mosque, and (O Muslims), wheresoever ye may be, turn your faces toward it."- (HOLY QURAN 2144).
"Now when Daniel...went into his house; and his window being open in his chamber towards Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and thanks before his God, as he did aforetime."-(DANIEL 610).
"And he (Jesus) went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed..."-(MATTHEW 2639).
"And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship..."-(JOSHUA 514).
"And he (Elijah) cast himself down upon the earth, and put his face between his knees."-(1 KINGS 1842).
"And they (Moses and Aaron) fell upon their faces..."-(NUMBERS 206).
"And Abraham fell on his face..."-(GENESIS 173).Islam is a Physical and Practical DEEN and not just a Illusion.
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Samia
I suggest that the "Next" should be to show that Bacca is Mecca. If this is proven, then the location of the house in Jerusalem will automatically be refuted.I found it "strange" for a group of people dare to change the name of a location "BACCA"/"BACCATA" into "MECCA".
While it is written in their Holy Scripture..Since the Hagg ritual should not be a "new ritual" for people of the book.
I found it also "strange" for the Jews in Canaan to anually travel > 1000 KM over the hostile desert into this place called "Mecca", leaving their home unguarded.
It took 1.5 month walk to reach that place and same amount of time to get back.
Thus 3/12 amount of their time is spent just to perform this supposedly "Hagg" ritual.
Take a peek on Google Earth, and count the distance between Canaan region to Mekka..It really "dazzle" me to imagine Jewish people like Jesus, John, David, Solomon/Sulayman, Zakariya, Isaiah circling a black stone 7 times and then kiss the stone.
And FYI, The "Hagg" word in Hebrew is supposedly means "Festival" or "Thanksgiving To God Festival" to be exact.
Annually they have 4 month of (main) Hagg.. (Confirmed by the Quran).Surely the number of months with Allah is twelve months in Allah's ordinance since the day when He created the heavens and the earth, of these four being sacred; that is the right reckoning; therefore be not unjust to yourselves regarding them, and fight the polytheists all together as they fight you all together; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
Salam
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Samia
I suggest that the "Next" should be to show that Bacca is Mecca. If this is proven, then the location of the house in Jerusalem will automatically be refuted.Thank you for being with us this long! and showing patience; just a bit more!
You're welcome!
In fact I can't wait to see that it gets the fate of mecca=faarraan , i.e in the trash of claims without sound evidence.
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Ok! so before I start my respond to ayman, let us see what Samia ha this time
SamiaI found it "strange" for a group of people dare to change the name of a location "BACCA"/"BACCATA" into "MECCA".
While it is written in their Holy Scripture..Since the Hagg ritual should not be a "new ritual" for people of the book.
I found it also "strange" for the Jews in Canaan to anually travel > 1000 KM over the hostile desert into this place called "Mecca", leaving their home unguarded.
It took 1.5 month walk to reach that place and same amount of time to get back.
Thus 3/12 amount of their time is spent just to perform this supposedly "Hagg" ritual.
Take a peek on Google Earth, and count the distance between Canaan region to Mekka..Dumb logic as usual; see when you are supporting falsehood, you end up with posts similar to it.
Even few hundred years back it took months to reach Mecca by many going for Hajj from Sub-continent, but supposedly you cannot understand this, nor any who has no respect for Allah's orders. Distance has never been a problem for the people who are faith full no matter how hostile it is.
Abraham the father of nations travelled a lot and it took him years.Between the Islamic Middle Ages until the 19th century, pilgrims travelled by foot, camel, caravan and ship for months, years and even decades to fulfil a lifetime obligation. Short of money en-route, poorer pilgrims sometimes interrupted their journeys to earn more before continuing on their way. The road to Mecca was littered with peril and adventure. Thieves, tricksters, greedy border agents, enslavement, financial ruin, political upheaval, prejudice, disease and foul play were just some of the obstacles faced by pilgrims.
The journey to Mecca became as much a test of one's faith as the pilgrimage itself.In one of the earliest Hajj travelogues, the Persian poet Naser-e Khosraw wrote in 1050...
By chance, the leader of the Arabs with whom we had travelled, the Banu Sawad, came to Jaz', and we took him as our khafir. His name was Abu Ghanem Abs son of al-Ba'ir, and we set out under his protection. A group of Arabs, thinking they had found 'prey' (as they call all strangers), came headed towards us; but since their leader was with us, they passed without saying anything. Had he not been with us, they most certainly would have destroyed us.
It is only recently with the help of Aeroplanes and faster ships that Journey has been shortened.Some times I realy cannot understand that is it because of lack of knowldge or just to test that these type of posts are posted.
salaam samia.
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ayman
I look forward to your fair response and perhaps your agreement.
Peace,
Ayman
I will try, there are two main obstacles in doing so
- Lack of time
- English
anyway they are no excuses.
A part of your post was responded in respnse to Warner's post. For the rest
Peace Rajah,
Quote from Raj-ah on June 13, 2007, 052354 AM
First we will take the claim of those who say House of Allah can be anywhere!
Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near unto Thy holy House, our Lord! that they may establish proper worship; so incline some hearts of men that they may yearn toward them, and provide Thou them with fruits in order that they may be thankful.
This verse clearly tells us settling of Ismail in an Uncultivable Land near Allah's house, and offcourse that cannot be JUST ANY WHERE.No, it doesn't tell us what you propose. The translation that you quoted is false. Please see Classical Arabic dictionaries and the use of the term "zar3" in 1247, 5664, 4829, 6141, 1611, 134, 1437, 1832, 3227, 3921, 26148, and 4426. You can see that "zar3" involves an act of human cultivation. This doesn't mean that the valley was barren, i.e., without naturally occurring plants. So the passage is certainly talking about an "uncultivated valley" not an "uncultivable valley". This is also confirmed by the fact that the people of the prophet were engaged in agriculture activities as per passages such as 5664, etc.
Now why does 1437 simply tell us "an uncultivated valley"? Why doesn't the god tell us in 1437 or in any other passage in the great reading the name of that valley? For example, he could have easily said the valley of Mecca or the valley of so and so. If you believe that the god does everything for a reason then the only logical conclusion is that the name of the valley and its exact location are not important
You seem to have habit of negating any argument by just calling it false, not correct, and then not providing any evidence?
Why is the translation which I choose FALSE?I have 7 translations Urdu/English before me of the Scholars who have been recognized, and none of them supports you.
If you translate it as "Uncultivated Valley" (so at those times lot of the land was uncultivated which was later cultivated) then there is no NEED to mention that Abraham settled part of his family in an uncultivated valley, near thy house, specifically in that verse, it is of no importance. The only importance comes in when we are talking about some thing distinict like settling in a valley that is uncultivable.One Thousand Roads to Mecca Ten Centuries of Travelers Writing about the Muslim Pilgrimage By Michael Wolfe
Mecca owes its existence to ZAM ZAM Well, the sole water source in the barren valley surrounded by rugged treeless peaks (see figure 3 and 4). Its usual climate has been decsribed as a combination of suffocating heats, deadly winds and clouds of flies. No crops seem ever to be grown there.....
Then turning that uncultivable valley into the hub of prosperity and business and almsot every thing, according to the prayer of Abraham and his son.
These clearly indicate towards the present day MECCA.However in both the cases if the Valley is uncultivated or Uncultivable your claim that house of ALLAH can be anywhere is REFUTED by yourself.
Allah tells us in 5664
Did you grow them, or did we?"The people of Prophet were engaged in agriculture activities" so what does this Ayat has to do with the above mentioned Ayat?
When prophet migrated to Madina Yes the people were engaged in agricultural activities.
In Madina Prophet encouraged the Sahabah to cultivate the land and make gardens. He told them that any one who will cultivate any land that was dead, would own it. Many people started working and cultivating and soon there was enough food for every one.Mecca's Food Supplies and Muhammad's Boycott
Fred McGraw Donner
Mecca was unable to raise its own food and depended partly on foodstuffs of ...So this is clearly identified that the verse you are talking about is most likely for the people of MADINA or others near to Makkah.
Prophet and Sahaba, when people from different places arrived at MEcca to pay their piligrimage, offered and recited to them verses of Quran so they can understand Quran and Islam, the word of Allah was definitly not only for meccans but for Mank kind all over, there were people among them who were agriculturist and these verses were addressed to them.ayman
Now why does 1437 simply tell us "an uncultivated valley"? Why doesn't the god tell us in 1437 or in any other passage in the great reading the name of that valley? For example, he could have easily said the valley of Mecca or the valley of so and so. If you believe that the god does everything for a reason then the only logical conclusion is that the name of the valley and its exact location are not important
No! no!! no!!! it does not simply tells us that Abraham settled part of his family in "Uncultivable" valley near his house, but different ayats in Quran shed more light on it.
Recall that Abraham said, "My Lord, make this a peaceful land, and protect me and my children from worshiping idols
That valley is asked by Abraham to be peaceful, he is not asking the whole Earth to be peaceful but that specific land to be peaceful, therefore THAT HOUSE CANNOT BE JUST ANY WHERE it has an specific location according to Quran.
Prayer of Abraham while builting the foundations of KAABA
"Our Lord, and raise among them a messenger to recite to them Your revelations, teach them the scripture and wisdom, and purify them. You are the Almighty, Most WiseVery important!
The last "GREAT READING" is in ARABIC and the Prophet on whom it was revealed was an ARABIC therefore it is very Clear, crystal clear that hosue of Allah CAN'T BE JUST ANYWHERE!
the HOUSE which was built by Abraham had a specific location according to the prayers of Abraham and his son.Our Lord, and send amongst them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite to them Your revelations and teach them the scripture and the wisdom, and purify them. You are the Noble, the Wise."
Not all the world is Arab, right and nor do we have "The last great Reading" revealed in all the places on Prophets in all the places of earth, therefore YOU are REFUTED.
House of ALLAH can't be JUST ANY WHERE.
"Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a qiblah which you shall like; turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever you are, turn your face towards it." (Holy Qur'an 2144)
Not only Quran but BIBLE also gives tells us about HOUSE OF ALLAH being in a specific location.
In Bible
Psalm 1382
I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word.Genesis 2816-18
16 When Jacob awoke from his sleep, he thought, "Surely the LORD is in this place, and I was not aware of it."
17 He was afraid and said, "How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God; this is the gate of heaven."Judges 2018
18 The Israelites went up to Bethel (the House of GOD in Hebrew) and inquired of God. They said, "Who of us shall go first to fight against the Benjamites?" The LORD replied, "Judah shall go first."And Know most important the following verse of Quran tells us the specific location of house of ALLAH
And call out to mankind with the Pilgrimage, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure
Now if the House of Allah can be established ANYWHERE, why Allah tells us that they will come to him walking and on every transport from furthest places? Please see the reality.
Wait for the next.
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ayman
Are you implying that the god is lying when he told us the location of the house in 2226?
Allah told us the location very clearly, and surely it is not ANYWHERE.
If you want to close your eyes to it then it is up to you!Are you implying that the god neglected to tell us the name of the town in passages such as 902 and 953?
Allah in the verse is talking to Muhammad; and Swears to the city in which Muhammad dwells, and Muhammad Lived in MEcca and therefore Allah tells us that the city where Muhammad lives is of importance.
The city is Makka, the sacred House of Allah which was the first temple ever to be erected on this earth as a place of peace where people put down their weapons and forget their quarrels. They meet inside in peace; each is sacred to all. Even the plants, the birds and all creatures that happen to be in this House enjoy full and complete security. It is the House built by Abraham, the father of Ishmail, who is the grandfather of all the Arabs and the Muslims.
The classical commentators give to the term balad the connotation of "city", and maintain that the phrase hadha 'l-balad ("this city" signifies Mecca, and that the pronoun "thou" in the second verse refers to Muhammad.Now only way you can take in other sense is hadha 'l-balad denote "this land of man", i.e., the earth Consequently, the "thou" in verse 2 relating to man in general, and that which is "called to witness" is his earthly environment.
Now this again is METAPHORICAL reading of Quran.AND I WILL NOT TAKE THIS EXPLANATION BY YOU, unless and until YOU draw a CLEAR CUT line between METPHORIC AND LITERAL QURAN, that's just too much, whenever you like the CULTIVATION becomes Physical and whenever you like haha 'i-balad becomes "this land of MAN" from "This CITY".
Before I continue let me clear some points
The Kaba or Kaaba (the black cube building in Saudi Arabia) is basically the symbolic point on earth (His House) that GOD Almighty Chose to have all of His True Believers meet Him through bowing down their faces in humility down to the ground before Him, The actual bricks and cement that make up the Kaaba are not holy.
While it is true that many ignorant and illiterate Muslims might incline toward idol worship and do consider the actual Kaaba as a very sacred thing to a point where they would go as far as rubbing their bodies against it to get "blessings", but these people are not representing the True picture of Islam. If a person worships the Kaaba itself, then he/she becomes an idol worshiperThe direction of the Kaaba unifies the Muslims as if they were ONE CLOSE COMMUNITY.
If every one starts making his own KAABA at every place then this will be situation may be only YOU brother ayman can enjoy.
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Salaams all,
(This is just a one off- post.)
its a strange thing when people don't open up to a new dawn taking in the light of the lord God but rather stay closed to it like.............so many here.
The direction of the Kaaba unifies the Muslims as if they were ONE CLOSE COMMUNITY.
Why do Muslims need to be united?
There are Muslims who are thieves, cut throats, murderes, wrongdoers, thugs and all them other nasty things you can name.
Saying all that there certainly are the good Muslims as well but how can you tell who they are ? by looking at their name tag (Muslims) , the direction they take for their prayer or by looking at there manners and their actions.
The direction we are to take is only one ? towards all that is good and nothing besides.
002.148
YUSUFALI To each is a goal to which Allah turns him; then strive together (as in a race) towards all that is good. Whosesoever ye are, Allah will bring you together. For Allah hath power over all things.
023.060
And those who dispense their charity with their hearts full of fear, because they will return to their Lord; -
023.061
It is these who hasten in every good work, and these who are foremost in them.
056.010
And the foremost in the race, will be the foremostGod Bless All.
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Why do Muslims need to be united?
Oh! dear brother, what a question??
Have you ever tried answer it? I guess No! otherwise you would have not asked this question.
"Hawas ne tukre tukre kar diya hay na?u insan ko
ukhuwwat ka bayan ho ja mohabbat ki zaban ho ja
ye Hindi, wo Khurasani, ye Afghani, wo Turani
tu ay sharmindayeh sahil uchhal kar bekaraan ho ja"I think brother Agentxxx can translate it for you.
Muslims need to be united becuase Quran says So
Be not among the Mushrikun i.e., those who create differences in Deen (Isalm) and become sects. Each (sectarian) party quite content with itself (that it is following the correct path)." (3032)
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peace Rajah
That verse isn't telling us to agree with each other. It's telling us to consider every point of view and not be content with what you already believe, which I think you are.
Your guidance is a matter between you and God. You cannot go against verified truths to agree with others, especially if the majority is being mislead.
If everyone verifies their beliefs, then everyone will pretty much agree, since there is only one truth.
So the goal is not agreement, it is the truth. -
Ok! so before I start my respond to ayman, let us see what Samia ha this time
SamiaI found it "strange" for a group of people dare to change the name of a location "BACCA"/"BACCATA" into "MECCA".
While it is written in their Holy Scripture..Since the Hagg ritual should not be a "new ritual" for people of the book.
I found it also "strange" for the Jews in Canaan to anually travel > 1000 KM over the hostile desert into this place called "Mecca", leaving their home unguarded.
It took 1.5 month walk to reach that place and same amount of time to get back.
Thus 3/12 amount of their time is spent just to perform this supposedly "Hagg" ritual.
Take a peek on Google Earth, and count the distance between Canaan region to Mekka..Dumb logic as usual; see when you are supporting falsehood, you end up with posts similar to it.
salaam samia.
Did I write this? confused
Am I always in your mind or haunting you?
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Oh! dear brother, what a question??
Have you ever tried answer it? I guess No! otherwise you would have not asked this question.
"Hawas ne tukre tukre kar diya hay nau insan ko
ukhuwwat ka bayan ho ja mohabbat ki zaban ho ja
ye Hindi, wo Khurasani, ye Afghani, wo Turani
tu ay sharmindayeh sahil uchhal kar bekaraan ho ja"I think brother Agentxxx can translate it for you.
Muslims need to be united becuase Quran says So
Be not among the Mushrikun i.e., those who create differences in Deen (Isalm) and become sects. Each (sectarian) party quite content with itself (that it is following the correct path)." (3032)
No. That verse signifies nothing towards your point that unity is imperative - though it is.
However
SHAKIR But We will this day deliver you with your body that you may be a sign to those after you, and most surely the majority of the people are heedless to Our communications.
Case closed.
The Quran does not hate disunity (though it is favourable) but it hates discord and enmity. The only good way to take out that discord and enmity is... to be united.
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"Hawas ne tukre tukre kar diya hay na?u insan ko
ukhuwwat ka bayan ho ja mohabbat ki zaban ho ja
ye Hindi, wo Khurasani, ye Afghani, wo Turani
tu ay sharmindayeh sahil uchhal kar bekaraan ho ja"I think brother Agentxxx can translate it for you.
Muslims need to be united becuase Quran says So
Peace Rajah sahib...http//i73.photobucket.com/albums/i231/nabpeace/gif%20files/salute.gif SIR.
I could not have translated it myself as I am not well versed in English.... luckily I have some of Allama's poetry saved on my computer with English translation including this stanza."Hawas ne tukre tukre kar diya hay na?u insan ko
ukhuwwat ka bayan ho ja mohabbat ki zaban ho ja
ye Hindi, wo Khurasani, ye Afghani, wo Turani
tu ay sharmindayeh sahil uchhal kar bekaraan ho ja""Greed has torn apart humankind. You (Muslims), become role models of love and brotherhood. Get beyond the narrow boundaries of nationalities (like Indian, Khurasani, Afghani, and Turkish) and jump into the limitless ocean (of Islam)."
sorry to bug you again but this UNITED needs to be defined.......even the prophets had their differences because they had to guard the interest of their own respective tribes
A united Muslim ummah is an allusion, The ground reality is it never existed, the events after the death of the prophet...the battle of camel....battle of nirvan...the event of Karbala....the Ottoman turks and Arabs...Iran Iraq War...Talaban and Northern Alliance...Shia extremists vs Wahabi extremist in Iraq/other places...Hamas and Alfatah etc are the proof.
In my humble opinion more Muslims have died by the hands of Muslims rather then by the hands of those whom we call kafir.......first we have to stop killing each other and learn to live in peace regardless of our differences in beliefs/interests..... if people learn to live in peace with each other, unity will automatically, slowly but steadily takes it's roots in the society/nations/world.
peace
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Peace Rajah,
In one of the earliest Hajj travelogues, the Persian poet Naser-e Khosraw wrote in 1050...
I think that the fact that the earliest evidence that you have for the pagan ritual that you call Hajj comes from a period that is over 400 years after the prophet's time speaks volumes. How come none of the people of the book did this ritual in the many thousands of years prior? In fact, the only time we hear about this ritual is from 4th century CE manuscripts where the people of the book describe pagan Nabataean rituals for the idol Allat.
A part of your post was responded in respnse to Warner's post. For the rest
Nothing in your response to Warner addresses any of the points in my post.
You seem to have habit of negating any argument by just calling it false, not correct, and then not providing any evidence?
Why is the translation which I choose FALSE?I provided THREE evidences
- The passages of the great reading where the word "zar3" is mentioned and they clearly show that "zar3" is a human act of cultivation NOT naturally occuring plants.
- I told you to look in Classical Arabic dictionaries where you will see that the word certainly means human cultivation.
- I showed you passages such as 5664 where it is clearly said that the people of the prophet were involved in agriculture activities.
Here is what I said again, in case you couldn't read it properly the first time
No, it doesn't tell us what you propose. The translation that you quoted is false. Please see Classical Arabic dictionaries and the use of the term "zar3" in 1247, 5664, 4829, 6141, 1611, 134, 1437, 1832, 3227, 3921, 26148, and 4426. You can see that "zar3" involves an act of human cultivation. This doesn't mean that the valley was barren, i.e., without naturally occurring plants. So the passage is certainly talking about an "uncultivated valley" not an "uncultivable valley". This is also confirmed by the fact that the people of the prophet were engaged in agriculture activities as per passages such as 5664, etc.
I have 7 translations Urdu/English before me of the Scholars who have been recognized, and none of them supports you.
If you translate it as "Uncultivated Valley" (so at those times lot of the land was uncultivated which was later cultivated) then there is no NEED to mention that Abraham settled part of his family in an uncultivated valley, near thy house, specifically in that verse, it is of no importance. The only importance comes in when we are talking about some thing distinict like settling in a valley that is uncultivable.There are also many vast areas all around the world that are uncultivable. The god decides what is important and what is not. I am sure that the god knew that you and I would be having this conversation. He gave us enough info to discredit your pagan shrine in Mecca but no info to find a specific location because the location is not important.
One Thousand Roads to Mecca Ten Centuries of Travelers Writing about the Muslim Pilgrimage By Michael Wolfe
Mecca owes its existence to ZAM ZAM Well, the sole water source in the barren valley surrounded by rugged treeless peaks (see figure 3 and 4). Its usual climate has been decsribed as a combination of suffocating heats, deadly winds and clouds of flies. No crops seem ever to be grown there.....
Then turning that uncultivable valley into the hub of prosperity and business and almsot every thing, according to the prayer of Abraham and his son.
These clearly indicate towards the present day MECCA.If you dig deep enough anwhere on earth, you will find water. Zamzam is not a naturally occuring spring as your pagan mythology proposes. Zamzam water is actually pumped from underground storage tanks. Such "eternal springs" can also be found next to pagan fertility goddesses' temples. Pagan sites in India therefore, are usually associated with eternal springs and lakes and the water is considered to be sacred and to have healing powers. Sounds familiar? Of course it does, because your temple in Mecca is in reality a pagan temple for the Arab fertility goddess Allat.
However in both the cases if the Valley is uncultivated or Uncultivable your claim that house of ALLAH can be anywhere is REFUTED by yourself.
As I said, the god gave us enough info to discredit your pagan shrine in Mecca but no info to find a specific location because the location is not important.
Allah tells us in 5664
Did you grow them, or did we?
"The people of Prophet were engaged in agriculture activities" so what does this Ayat has to do with the above mentioned Ayat?
When prophet migrated to Madina Yes the people were engaged in agricultural activities.
In Madina Prophet encouraged the Sahabah to cultivate the land and make gardens. He told them that any one who will cultivate any land that was dead, would own it. Many people started working and cultivating and soon there was enough food for every one.
Mecca's Food Supplies and Muhammad's Boycott Fred McGraw Donner
Mecca was unable to raise its own food and depended partly on foodstuffs of ...
So this is clearly identified that the verse you are talking about is most likely for the people of MADINA or others near to Makkah.
Prophet and Sahaba, when people from different places arrived at MEcca to pay their piligrimage, offered and recited to them verses of Quran so they can understand Quran and Islam, the word of Allah was definitly not only for meccans but for Mank kind all over, there were people among them who were agriculturist and these verses were addressed to them.5664 is addressing the people of the prophet not the people in another town or country. Besides, it is not the only passage, other passages such as 6136 and 6138 confirm this. Are you going to claim that 6136 and 6138 is addressing the so-called Sahabah?
No! no!! no!!! it does not simply tells us that Abraham settled part of his family in "Uncultivable" valley near his house, but different ayats in Quran shed more light on it.
Recall that Abraham said, "My Lord, make this a peaceful land, and protect me and my children from worshiping idols
That valley is asked by Abraham to be peaceful, he is not asking the whole Earth to be peaceful but that specific land to be peaceful, therefore THAT HOUSE CANNOT BE JUST ANY WHERE it has an specific location according to Quran.There are many valleys that are far more peaceful than the one in Mecca. In fact, Mecca is one of the least peaceful places on earth. People there push one another and trample over old ladies so that they can kiss some stones. It is not a surprise that many people die almost every year while performing the pagan rituals that you named Hajj and stoning the devil's three obelisks (in pagan mythology, the obelisk symbolizes male power so naturally it is despised by those who worship female goddesses such as Allat). If you and I were having this public conversation in Mecca we would surely be arrested and tortured. If anyone in Mecca speaks against injustices committed by the Saudi royals, they would suffer the same fate or worse. So in reality, Mecca is one of the least peaceful places on earth. Countries like Switzerland are certainly far more peaceful.
Prayer of Abraham while builting the foundations of KAABA
"Our Lord, and raise among them a messenger to recite to them Your revelations, teach them the scripture and wisdom, and purify them. You are the Almighty, Most Wise
Very important!
The last "GREAT READING" is in ARABIC and the Prophet on whom it was revealed was an ARABIC therefore it is very Clear, crystal clear that hosue of Allah CAN'T BE JUST ANYWHERE!
the HOUSE which was built by Abraham had a specific location according to the prayers of Abraham and his son.
Our Lord, and send amongst them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite to them Your revelations and teach them the scripture and the wisdom, and purify them. You are the Noble, the Wise."
Not all the world is Arab, right and nor do we have "The last great Reading" revealed in all the places on Prophets in all the places of earth, therefore YOU are REFUTED.
House of ALLAH can't be JUST ANY WHERE.Again you are easily refuted by 2226 which tells us in no ambiguous terms about the location. Can you show me where in 2226 it says that the location must be in Arabia?
The house of the god can be in any location where partners are not setup with him. Of course, that location where no partners are set is a specific location by virtue of no partners being set not by virtue of being at a certain coordinate on the map.
At some point, the house was in Arabia. It doesn't mean that it must always be there even when the location violates 2226.
Also, there are many locations in Arabia why select the city called Mecca?
You have committed a logical fallacy that goes something like this
The great reading was descended in Arabia.
Mecca is in Arabia.
So the great reading was descended in Mecca.This is the same like saying
All the people who spoke French lived in France.
Paris is in France.
So all the people who spoke French lived in Paris."Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a qiblah which you shall like; turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever you are, turn your face towards it." (Holy Qur'an 2144)
How can you turn your face wherever you are towards any place? Are you not somewhere now of those "wherever" places while you are reading this? Are you facing Mecca? Probably not! So certainly "al-masjid al-haram" cannot be primarily a physical place. In fact, we are told in the following passages in chapter 2 that "al-masjid al-haram" is none other than the truth from your lord. You can see this even in Shakir's biased translation
- And from whatsoever place you come forth, turn your face towards the Sacred Mosque; and surely it is the very truth from your Lord, and Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.
Besides, since Mecca is below the horizon and the earth is rotating, by attempting to face it you are still turning your face in the heaven. This is what the prophet was not satisfied with.
Not only Quran but BIBLE also gives tells us about HOUSE OF ALLAH being in a specific location.
In Bible
Psalm 1382
I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word.
Genesis 2816-18
16 When Jacob awoke from his sleep, he thought, "Surely the LORD is in this place, and I was not aware of it."
17 He was afraid and said, "How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God; this is the gate of heaven."
Judges 2018
18 The Israelites went up to Bethel (the House of GOD in Hebrew) and inquired of God. They said, "Who of us shall go first to fight against the Benjamites?" The LORD replied, "Judah shall go first."The Jews took Jerusalem as the location of their temple so you are actually undermining your own argument for Mecca. This is what all misguided people do. They focus on a physical shrine and not on the truth.
And Know most important the following verse of Quran tells us the specific location of house of ALLAH
And call out to mankind with the Pilgrimage, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure
Now if the House of Allah can be established ANYWHERE, why Allah tells us that they will come to him walking and on every transport from furthest places? Please see the reality.If a house of the god where no partners are setup besides him is established in Pakistan and you call humankind with the feast/"haj" then they will come. Notice that the passage says "with" and not "to" so the feast/"hajj" is a tool for attracting people.
Wait for the next.
Based on the weakness of your current response, I doubt that you can answer the rest of my previous post that you left out.
Peace,
Ayman
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Ok! so before I start my respond to ayman, let us see what Samia ha this time
Samia
Dumb logic as usual; see when you are supporting falsehood, you end up with posts similar to it.It's me not Samia.. and do you always start a discussion with this "insult first, argument later" style?
Abraham the father of nations travelled a lot and it took him years.
Yeah, it also proves that Abraham cannot possibly performing this version of Hagg ANNUALLY..
Between the Islamic Middle Ages until the 19th century, pilgrims travelled by foot, camel, caravan and ship for months, years and even decades to fulfil a lifetime obligation. Short of money en-route, poorer pilgrims sometimes interrupted their journeys to earn more before continuing on their way. The road to Mecca was littered with peril and adventure. Thieves, tricksters, greedy border agents, enslavement, financial ruin, political upheaval, prejudice, disease and foul play were just some of the obstacles faced by pilgrims.
And is there any records of this "pilgrimage to the desert Mecca" before 7th century?
There are no records of pious persons such as Jesus, John, David, Solomon, Moses, Jacob, Joseph performing this Hagg To Mecca things..
And imagining them doing pagan ritual of circling a stone seven times and then kiss the stone... really makes me sick... yuckEven the "Gossips" (readHadith) of Muhammad Ibnu Abdullah performing this pagan ritual is debatable.
Honestly I really do not believes that Muhammad Ibnu Abdullah order his "people" to circle the stone seven times...This "Circling" thing is very much Pagan rituals, you can find the Indians (Native Americans) circling a totem before they go to war..
In Paganism this circling something ritual is often regarded as a ritual to ask for Gods/Godesses help on war...The journey to Mecca became as much a test of one's faith as the pilgrimage itself.
I think we have a disagreement on what the meanings of Hagg..
Your "Hagg" seems similar to the Catholic concept of "Pilgrimage" or a "Crusade".. a test of one's faith to the CHURCH thus to its DOGMA thus to GOD because GOD=CHURCH... It is "understandable" since Catholicism and Sunniism people is rooted from strong Paganism culture.In Jewish culture; Hagg = Thanksgiving..
From the Bible, there are records of Jesus and his disciples "performing" the Pessakh Hagg..
They share their food on one table and altogether have a thanksgiving supper on Pessakh Hagg day..You also can find many Thanksgiving culture in many other part of the world.. although "the place to gather and have a thanksgiving festival" is varied on each culture.
The Eskimos offers "Fish" as their "Korban".. The Jews Sheep or Ox for their "Korvan", The Vietnamese; rice..., The European Americans; turkey (the huge chicken not the country Turkiye D) And usually they share their "Korban"/"Korvan"/"Offerings" and have a huge feast...Salam / Peace
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Salaam Rajah
Rajah I kept on repeating "After time of Abraham the piligrimage practices around Makkah were corrupted which were corrected by Muhammad and now again 1500 years have been passed and there are some corruptions or some sort of idol worship emerging and we should keep them pointing out" but that does not mean at all we start changing the House of Allah to place about which we ourselves donot know.
Since you accept there are idol worshipping happening in modern day mecca can you name them.
After Abraham there were quite a number of Messengers were they not interested in correcting these idol worship or at least visit the place.
Rajah I think you do not study a lot, or if you do; you dont not the works of those who are well researched and have some ratings in the eyes of Scholars and masses.
No one is saying that Encyclopedia britannica or anyother research is error free and no one has claimed that but they have a reputation not for unattainable perfection but for strong scholarship,sound judgment, and disciplined editorial review. These practices are the foundation of any reliablereference work. Britannica undergoes continuous revision and fact checking. Their editors work unceasingly to reviseand improve the encyclopedia and to publish the results in a timely way. They work with thousandsof contributors and advisers around the world?scholars and experts all?and maintain a brisk cor-respondence with their readers as well. If they investigate any claims of error that come to their atten-tion, and when one is valid, they fix the error.I do not dilute what I study in the Book of Allah with man made books and fabrications. It depends on what you study. I thank Allah for giving me the wisdom to study what is relevant and not waste time with trash. According to you hadeeth is well researched and has got scholars and masses approval and also got the approval from Britannica. For those who are blind and led astray by the shaitan they can not see or understand the book of Allah. They will defend their falsehood using Britannica or any source. And devil will help them and protect their sources and Allah will protect His message. I do not see the nonsense you propagate as studying a lot but as a waste of time. The viewers here give importance to research work than any tradition follower would ever.
There are so many bakka/baqaa in Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan and in the surrounding region even mentioned in Britannica. If the Saudis name the city of mecca as Bakka again Britannica will follow suit.There is no single research to prove that mecca is bakkah. Does the Britannica say the valley of bakka in the Psalm is mecca ?
I do not qualify the Quran using the Britannica or other books it?s the other way around.
Rajah Now you giving me url of INFIDELS for your support just tells the story.
To a person of certain faith the rest are infidels. I think the example is quite appropriate in your case.
Rajah It is similar to some one asking Bush regarding Osama's biography.
It?s better than asking Bukhari about Muhammad?s biography.
Rajah Brother you are at very intial stage.
Therefore I asked you how will you translate it?
I am glad to be in the initial stage of understanding the message from my Lord but sadly you have not even opened the Quraan and even if you did you are completely blind to it since you are drowned by lies and fabrications.
I did not translate it. You translated it as sacred mosque. From when did Haram become sacred?
Also Abraham and Ismael did not build a House or a Kaaba they ?raised the foundation from the House?.
Rajah Please read previous posts regarding this.
This topic has 29 pages; it?s difficult for me to find your answer to my question in this thread. Can you kindly post the answer here?
Also do I have to face in the direction of al masjid al haram when I am doing salat?
Your biblical sources do not place baca in mecca. S.A. According to the sources the House of God is in modern day Palestine/Israel. The valley mentioned in psalm maybe referring to The beqaa valley in modern day Lebanon. Check the Britannica they would have got it right this time.
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Lobster
peace Rajah
That verse isn't telling us to agree with each other. It's telling us to consider every point of view and not be content with what you already believe, which I think you are.
Your guidance is a matter between you and God. You cannot go against verified truths to agree with others, especially if the majority is being mislead.
If everyone verifies their beliefs, then everyone will pretty much agree, since there is only one truth.
So the goal is not agreement, it is the truthThere is lot of difference between agreeing and being United even if we disagree on lot of questions but as a Muslim we shall be United as I will show it you according to Quran.
Yes you are correct we should consider every point of view and No you are wrong telling me that I am content with what I already believe. If that had been the case I would never be involved in the discussions.
Yes! as you said the goal is not agreement, but it is not only the truth also, It is agreement on the truth.No. That verse signifies nothing towards your point that unity is imperative - though it is.
However
Quote
SHAKIR But We will this day deliver you with your body that you may be a sign to those after you, and most surely the majority of the people are heedless to Our communications.Case closed.
The Quran does not hate disunity (though it is favourable) but it hates discord and enmity. The only good way to take out that discord and enmity is... to be united.
Yes to be United! is a good way! why because Quran says it, regarding the verse I quoted, according to my understanding clearly tells us not to be disunited, if you don't think so it is up to you
Those who split up their Religion, and become (mere) Sects,- each party rejoicing in that which is with itself!
As most of you are doing, or according to them I am doing. They think every thing traditional has to be changed and every thing traditional is wrong! this is a pathetic approach.
Anyway Allah tells us in Quran further
" And hold fast all together by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you) and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favor on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love so that by His grace ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of fire and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make his signs clear to you that ye may be guided".
Allah please open their eyes and minds so they can read your message.
The conflicting Muslim parties fight against each other in the name of Allah. The reason is clear. In all conflicts if we review the conditions of compromise/ unity, we will find that our friends, leaders, Imams, scholars, governments and Islamic organizations want to unite Muslims based upon their "own" principles and beliefs. Although, there is no dispute in Qur'an but nowadays every sect / organization / government / Imam / leader has it's own interpretation of Qur'an and Hadith. Every sect / organization / government / Imam / leader is struggling for control and power in order to implement their own sectarian beliefs and policies. This certainly includes you the latest sect, who think that every thing traditional is wrong, weather it has wiehtage or not, in this regard many have gone so far that they even try to degrade the person about whom quran says "Mercy for all the Worlds"
Please be rational and think for a while that do we follow following principals
Whenever we discuss a disputed matter we must be civilized, open minded and kind to other Muslims.
Whenever we discuss a disputed matter we should acquire in-depth knowledge of both side's point of view.
We should be positive and respectful towards other Muslims regardless of difference in opinions.
We must be preaching and spreading Islam not our own sectarian beliefs.I don't think so!
Agentxxx
Peace Rajah sahib... SIR.
Salaam
agentxxx
sorry to bug you again but this UNITED needs to be defined.......even the prophets had their differences because they had to guard the interest of their own respective tribes
Sorry to disappoint you, triple X , as pointed out above there is a difference between having a difference and being United as a UMMAH. Ibraham and Lot may had differences but they were UNITED in the mission of Allah.
Agentxxx
A united Muslim ummah is an allusion, The ground reality is it never existed, the events after the death of the prophet...the battle of camel....battle of nirvan...the event of Karbala....the Ottoman turks and Arabs...Iran Iraq War...Talaban and Northern Alliance...Shia extremists vs Wahabi extremist in Iraq/other places...Hamas and Alfatah etc are the proof.
Quite astonishing to hear it from a person who has based his religous beliefs on illusions.
The matter of the fact is Battle of camel was of personal differences
Karbala was regarding personal conflicts
The war of Turks, ARabs were due to Nationalism
IRAN, IRAQ, FATEH, HAMAS, SHIA, SUNNI have lot of differences, and as mentioned above these differences are in within greater frame work, NONE of the ABOVE says THERe is NO ALLAH and these differences are natrual, what I am talking about is KAABA being a symbol of unity for Muslims similarly when I read your posts I find "PEACE" written on the start of every post this is also a symbol of UNITY among Muslims.