I'm Debating with Sunni muslims in a forum
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The general view is that obeying God AND his rasool means obeying precisely what we have verifiable of their legacy. As you see, the hadith do not stand up to scrutiny, so the legacy is, and effectively always was the Quran only.
Oh, and here
"When you read the Quran, we place between you and those who do not believe in the Hereafter an invisible barrier. We place shields around their minds, to prevent them from understanding it, and deafness in their ears. And when you preach your Lord, using the Quran alone, they run away in aversion." (1745-46)
045.006
YUSUFALI Such are the Signs of Allah, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what exposition (hadith) will they believe after (rejecting) Allah and His Signs? -
Salam bro OPF and Bro Nadeem
Okey, i see OPF. This sunni dude in the forum he claims that we must follow Muhammed because several verses in the quran tells us he is an example for humanity/muslims. But i told him that by following Quran we follow the example of muhammed because Muhammeds personality and beliefs and actions was based on Quran.
I've read some articles at free-minds that tell us that abraham was an example for the humanity. I don't remember which articles it were, or which verses in the quran that tells Abraham was an example, do anyone at the forum know which verses that tells us abraham was an example for us muslims?
Peace David
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As salamu alaykum wr wb,
Respectfully, sisters and brothers.If you want to debate them then first seek refuge in God from satan the rejected and then give them this 7221 where The Exalted God Almighty, The Most Wise tells Muhammad to .... Say "I have no power to cause you harm nor to show you what is right."
Notice how Muhammad cannot go around and talk what he wants from Islam, Muhammad is told by The Exalted God Most Wise what to tell them and he has to tell them that he, because he is a human being, cannot tell them what is right because he has no such power.
Right here we can see Muhammad as a human being who has no power to show what is right and therefore he is portrayed as a human being, as a messenger and nothing else.
As salamu alaykum wr wb.
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Salam Alen.
The sunni guy keep telling me that we need hadtih, because Muhammed has explained Quran through hadith etc..
Do you have any arguments i can use against the claim above?
But isn't abraham an example for us too? and where is the verses that tells us abraham is an example?
Peace D
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Peace David,
God tells us the Quran has been made easy (5417). So, either God is not telling us the truth (heaven forbid), or this person you are debating with is confused and has been taught wrongly that the Quran was made difficult and needs explaining!
Also, on the issue of
obey the messengerI would like to know how the Quran was revealed to mankind? Was it not revealed through the messenger? Therefore, if a person wanted to carryout the partobey God, can the messenger be removed from the equation?Obey God and obey the messenger are integral because the Quran came to us through the medium of that messenger...If the verse simply said
obey Godthen the polytheists would deny the Quran because it came through the messenger (they will claim there must be something directly revealed by God for them to follow)...For the polythesits this is a catch 22, you can never show them the way. -
Salam Alen.
The sunni guy keep telling me that we need hadtih, because Muhammed has explained Quran through hadith etc..
Do you have any arguments i can use against the claim above?
But isn't abraham an example for us too? and where is the verses that tells us abraham is an example?
Peace D
6101 => 6106 (not completely relevant)
6114 => 6116 (relevant)
75016 => 7520 (relevant)
1746
Many more. If we take Progod's stance which seems to be most likely - that the Quran is a narrative from "angels", i.e. malikah, then 75016 => 75020 becomes far clearer.
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But isn't abraham an example for us too? and where is the verses that tells us abraham is an example?
yes he is !
604 There has been a good example set for you by Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people "We are innocent from you and what you serve besides God. We have rejected you, and it appears that there shall be animosity and hatred between us and you until you believe in God alone." Except for the saying of Abraham to his father "I will ask forgiveness for you, but I do not possess any power to protect you from God." "Our Lord, we have put our trust in You, and we turn to You, and to You is the final destiny."
605 "Our Lord, do not let us become a test for those who rejected, and forgive us. Our Lord, You are the Noble, the Wise."
606 Certainly, a good example has been set by them for those who seek God and the Last Day. And whosoever turns away, then God is the Rich, the Praiseworthy. -
Salaam
Many messengers mentioned in the Quraan asked their people to obey them. Chapter 26 has many examples of this. (Check verses 108,110, 126,131,144,150, 179, 163 in Chapter 26) Moses asks Pharaoh to obey him. Moses was requesting pharaoh to release the Children of Israel to which he did not obey. None of these prophets and messengers are asking the people to follow or obey hadeeth or bukhari.
In 4038 the man who believed among the people of Pharaoh tells people to follow him.
If the Quraan does not command people to obey the messenger why should the people march out against an enemy, donate their wealth and risk their lives fighting along with the messenger on his instructions?
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Peace,
Below is what I posted from a previous thread
God has made mention of many "good examples" in the Quran, so there is no support here to follow any actions of Muhammad.
Actually, the examples that are really important are already mentioned in the Quran. (see 3927)
4359 - Jesus was a good example
604 - Abraham was a good example
606 - Those who seek God and the last day are a good exampleIn short, all true believers are a good example.
God bless,
dotty
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The point of obeying the Messenger was in obeying him when he delegated his first cousin and son in law to the office of Imam. He also named the other eleven Imams by NAME that muslims are to follow.
Sunnis will not tell you this and in fact, many of them do not understand what they follow when they call themselves Sunnis. Basically, the five or six (depending on who you talk to) sects of Sunni Islam are all based on the leadership of those who refused to accept the Messenger's legacy and last will.
Those who do not follow that line of thinking are ALL Shi?. They follow the Ahlul Bayt and you will not find many Sunnis who are either capable or willing to explain this issue to you They will usually pose it to you as a multiple choice question when in fact it is a true or false. Either the first three Caliphs were utterly in violation of the Will of Allah or they weren't. Case closed.
All muslims were told to love Ali abi Taleb (the first Imam) and the problem is...you cannot love hiim and the Ahlul Bayt without loving what he said. What he said was entirely against the first three Caliphs. It was clear and it was harsh.
but it was absolutely true. The Quran backs this up but the Sunnis will not teach you that you are free to read the Quran under these conditions i.e. with particular attention paid to applying the Aya to the Sahaba themselves. The Sunni elevated their forefathers when in fact, their forefathers were foremost in neglect to Allah and the Messenger.
Hope this helps.
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Salam Alen.
The sunni guy keep telling me that we need hadtih, because Muhammed has explained Quran through hadith etc..
Do you have any arguments i can use against the claim above?
But isn't abraham an example for us too? and where is the verses that tells us abraham is an example?I was a Sunni, and my way out of Suniism blind faith is due to "fallacy" on their "Shahadah" dogma..
So how do you expect Muhammad Ibnu Abdullah proclaim his Shahada?
"I bear Witness that I am the messenger of God?"
What a useless testimony...And the so-called Shahada can only be found on the Gossip err Hadith..
In case of Abraham, the case could be funnier..
Since Abraham is a muslim and muslim have to proclaim the shahada (or else he/she'll became an infidel)Abraham "should" say
"I bear witness that Muhammad is a messenger of God"
"but err.... who is this Muhammad? I've never met him, so how could I bear witness? I never knew this Muhammad guy! I'll be guilty of false testimony!"Salam
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Abraham "should" say
"I bear witness that Muhammad is a messenger of God"
"but err.... who is this Muhammad? I've never met him, so how could I bear witness? I never knew this Muhammad guy! I'll be guilty of false testimony!"thank you ! i feel the exact same way !
;D
or did muhammad say his own name?
what did jesus say?
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The point of obeying the Messenger was in obeying him when he delegated his first cousin and son in law to the office of Imam. He also named the other eleven Imams by NAME that muslims are to follow.
Sunnis will not tell you this and in fact, many of them do not understand what they follow when they call themselves Sunnis. Basically, the five or six (depending on who you talk to) sects of Sunni Islam are all based on the leadership of those who refused to accept the Messenger's legacy and last will.
Those who do not follow that line of thinking are ALL Shi?. They follow the Ahlul Bayt and you will not find many Sunnis who are either capable or willing to explain this issue to you They will usually pose it to you as a multiple choice question when in fact it is a true or false. Either the first three Caliphs were utterly in violation of the Will of Allah or they weren't. Case closed.
All muslims were told to love Ali abi Taleb (the first Imam) and the problem is...you cannot love hiim and the Ahlul Bayt without loving what he said. What he said was entirely against the first three Caliphs. It was clear and it was harsh.
but it was absolutely true. The Quran backs this up but the Sunnis will not teach you that you are free to read the Quran under these conditions i.e. with particular attention paid to applying the Aya to the Sahaba themselves. The Sunni elevated their forefathers when in fact, their forefathers were foremost in neglect to Allah and the Messenger.
Hope this helps.
The Quran says nothing about this ridiculously irrelevant yet centuries old, violent and backwards dispute between two groups of people who spend more time worshipping their heroes from the 6th century than God. It says nothing to support either doctrine and everything to the contrary.
And if I remember correctly, it specifically advises against calling yourselves "shia" rotfl
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Salam to all my brothers and sisters
Thanks for all your answears. This helped a lot and i really appreciate it.
I was searching in the internett a week ago and i found a blog-site that has an article
about Prophet Muhammed in The Quran.The sunni guy i am debating with seems really ignorant, he tells me There almost no ayaaat about
Muhammed in the quran, so i wanna show him this article.But there is a problem; I don't remember the name of this internett site/blog. Do any of you got the name of the site?
I know that the brother that is writing this articles in his blog is a Muslim that follows quran alone, and i think he is a member in
free-minds. Do any of you know the name of the site as i mentioned above, or the name of this member?I want to give a link to his page to the sunni's so that they can read about prophet muhammed according to the
verses of Quran onlyPeace and Much love..
David
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I'm debating with these sunnies right now.
I was searching in the internett a week ago and i found a blog-site that has an article
about Prophet Muhammed in The Quranic verses only.The sunni guy tells me There almost no ayaaat about
Muhammed in the quran, so i wanna show him this article.But there is a problem; I don't remember the name of this internett site/blog. Do any of you got the name of the site?
I know that the brother that is writing this articles in his blog is a Muslim that follows quran alone, and i think he is a member in
free-minds. Do any of you know the name of the site as i mentioned above, or the name of this member?I'm repeting this questions one more time, because no one answeared. i need help bro's..
And he also asked me this question; why does God tell in quran that we should obey those among us with autorithy?
by leaders and stuff..do you have any good arguments i can use against this question?
Peace David
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And he also asked me this question; why does God tell in quran that we should obey those among us with autorithy?
by leaders and stuff..this is ridiculous the quran never says this ! quiet the contrary!
the quran doesn't even want you to follow your own parents
2170 And if they are told "Follow what God has sent down," they say "No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!" What if their fathers did not understand anything and were not guided?
5104 And if they are told "Come to what God has sent down, and to the messenger;" they say "We are content with what we found our fathers doing." What if their fathers did not know anything nor were guided?
728 And if they commit evil acts, they say "We found our fathers doing such, and God ordered us to it." Say "God does not order evil! Do you say about God what you do not know?"
770 They said "Have you come to us to serve God alone and abandon what our fathers had served? Bring us what you promise if you are of the truthful ones!"
1240 "What you serve besides Him are nothing but names which you have created you and your fathers, God did not send down any authority for such. The judgment is for none but God. He ordered that none be served but He. That is the true system, but most of the people do not know." (this is prophet joseph)
4322 The fact is, they have said "We found our fathers following a certain way, and we are following in their footsteps."
5323 These are but names that you made up, you and your forefathers. God never authorized such. They only follow conjecture, and personal desire, while the guidance has come to them from their Lord.
the 'followers' in fact blame the leaders on Judgement day
3367 And they will say "Our Lord, we have obeyed our leaders and our learned ones, but they misled us from the path."
ask the people you are debating with if they are on the right path, why will muhammad complain about them on Judgement day
2530 And the messenger said "My Lord, my people have deserted this Qur'an."
the only 'leaders' the quran asks us to obey are the messengers (who are all in the quran) otherwise how am i supposed to obey saleh, lot, abraham, joseph, moses, jesus etc... by following in their footsteps
check out these articles about 'the messenger'
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/themessenger/messenger.htm
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/themessenger/obeygod.htm
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/themessenger/obey.htm
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/themessenger/salatala.htm
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/themessenger/mohammed.htm
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DArgento is correct.
Verses pertaining to authority
4153
40056
247
459 (the verse your sunni friend cited) - Note the latter portion that states that you should refer matters to the Quran.The only verse I could find about Muhammad mentioning him directly is 3341. The messenger is not important - the message is.
