"We" vs God Alone
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Peace,
angels couldn't possibly be commanding themselves
what about the creation of the human being?
Why not? Why not certain angels commanding all angels and then following suit?
Zenje,
As far as forgiving, if there is a We there we have to consider it. However, if we are looking at the root &afaa, like thumma &afawnaa &ankum, &afaa is literally to pardon (like to give amnesty, to clear the slate) not to forgive (ghafara).
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace to all,
I have wondered about the We and Us in the Quran for a long time, if you notice, even the old testament uses the same terminology, whether the entire bible is correct or not is another matter, however, in reference to the we and us issue, its pretty clear that the old testament use of us and we is in reference to God talking to his angels. Here are a few verses that clearly show what is meant.
These verses give us a picture of God talking to his heavenly host and in particular a select group of angels. The use of the word "us" in these verses do not indicate other Gods being present whom the one God was talking to. Thus, we can see that the first attempt of the trinitarians to get the pagan doctrine of the trinity into the Bible by false and misleading interpretation of words, segmentalism, meets the criteria of heresy and error.
In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. 2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew?Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying "Whom shall I send, And who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I! Send me" (Isaiah 81, .
Obviously, "who will go for us" is God talking to his heavenly angels. Seeing this vision, Isaiah does not give the angels time to respond, he cries out to the one God upon the throne "Here am I, send me."Isaiah said "Here am I" not "Here I am". To say "Here I am" indicates location, whereas to say "Here am I" is a statement of availability to do the will of God.
It is the will of God that you believe in One God. Will you go for the Lord God to all nations or to a friend and tell them there is one Lord, one Faith, and one religion for all mankind?
Kurt
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Peace,
Kurt I have noticed this in some of the Old testament verses as well. However, for now I'd rather stick the Classical Arabic and the Quranic usage. There could be a number of explanations for this We in the Bible logically and as it relates to the linguistics of Hebrew and Aramaic. However, we are not at a vantage point when it comes to discussing Hebrew and Aramaic linguistics here nor should we assume that these Hebrew and Aramaic linguistics also apply to the Quran.
I can come up with reasons for why God would say We in other contexts outside the Quran like if he asked His loyalists after they have been attacked 'Who will avenge us?' However in the Quran there are obvious contexts where the We cannot be God.
Al-faatiha is one and 'I am servant of the Lord of this land' is another.Godbless,
Anwar -
what about 234?
234 And We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam," so they submitted except for Satan, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters.
angels couldn't possibly be commanding themselves
what about the creation of the human being?
2312 We have created mankind from a structure derived from mud.
3871 For your Lord said to the angels "I am creating a human being from clay."
3872 "So when I have evolved him, and breathed into him from My spirit, then you shall yield to him."
3873 The angels yielded, all of them,Intersting find Bro , gives us an important clue regarding "entities" other than angel angel and >D, who are part of the system, and probably were/are responsible for handling angel angel, now or were in the previous/parallal/hidden universe.
siki
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Zenje,
As far as forgiving, if there is a We there we have to consider it. However, if we are looking at the root &afaa, like thumma &afawnaa &ankum, &afaa is literally to pardon (like to give amnesty, to clear the slate) not to forgive (ghafara).
Godbless,
AnwarYou are right, the word used in 252 is afawnaa and not ghafara, but even so, I feel this is not for other than the God in that situation.
- And We appointed a meeting time for Moses of forty nights, but then you took the calf after him while you were wicked.
- Then We forgave you after that, perhaps you would be thankful.
IMHO even if you used 'pardon', it still seems an awesome feet for Gabriel and company to do, considering downright idolatory that was done by the people. But, I'm not dismissing it yet, I'll look into it further and see if I come up with something else. Thanks for the interesting insight. )
Peace
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If we take this stance, then it becomes clearer. The Quran is a narrative made by entities who call themselves "We" (hehe) seeking to guide mankind and uphold God. If you notice, "We" is very very very close to nature and humans in general
002.060
YUSUFALI And remember Moses prayed for water for his people; We said "Strike the rock with thy staff." Then gushed forth therefrom twelve springs. Each group knew its own place for water. So eat and drink of the sustenance provided by Allah, and do no evil nor mischief on the (face of the) earth.002.056
YUSUFALI Then We raised you up after your death Ye had the chance to be grateful.
PICKTHAL Then We revived you after your extinction, that ye might give thanks.
SHAKIR Then We raised you up after your death that you may give thanks.002.057
YUSUFALI And We gave you the shade of clouds and sent down to you Manna and quails, saying "Eat of the good things We have provided for you" (But they rebelled); to us they did no harm, but they harmed their own souls.002.058
YUSUFALI And remember We said "Enter this town, and eat of the plenty therein as ye wish; but enter the gate with humility, in posture and in words, and We shall forgive you your faults and increase (the portion of) those who do good."Whereas God is relatively distant from humans.
Clearly, "We" is responsible for the closer guardianship of man and whatnot.
002.049
YUSUFALI And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.002.050
YUSUFALI And remember We divided the sea for you and saved you and drowned Pharaoh's people within your very sight.But conversely
008.017
YUSUFALI It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself for Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things).The whole surah, aside from this verse supports this viewpoint. Would it make sense if I wrote "Obey OPF and his messengers"? Or would it make more sense to say "Obey me and my messengers"?
But this is clearly from God
002.040
YUSUFALI O Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and fulfil your covenant with Me as I fulfil My Covenant with you, and fear none but Me.
PICKTHAL O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you, and fulfil your (part of the) covenant, I shall fulfil My (part of the) covenant, and fear Me.
SHAKIR O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and be faithful to (your) covenant with Me, I will fulfill (My) covenant with you; and of Me, Me alone, should you be afraid.002.041
YUSUFALI And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.
PICKTHAL And believe in that which I reveal, confirming that which ye possess already (of the Scripture), and be not first to disbelieve therein, and part not with My revelations for a trifling price, and keep your duty unto Me.
SHAKIR And believe in what I have revealed, verifying that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My communications; and Me, Me alone should you fear.002.042
YUSUFALI And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).
PICKTHAL Confound not truth with falsehood, nor knowingly conceal the truth.
SHAKIR And do not mix up the truth with the falsehood, nor hide the truth while you know (it).002.043
YUSUFALI And be steadfast in prayer; practise regular charity; and bow down your heads with those who bow down (in worship).
PICKTHAL Establish worship, pay the poor-due, and bow your heads with those who bow (in worship).
SHAKIR And keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and bow down with those who bow down.002.044
YUSUFALI Do ye enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget (To practise it) yourselves, and yet ye study the Scripture? Will ye not understand?
PICKTHAL Enjoin ye righteousness upon mankind while ye yourselves forget (to practise it)? And ye are readers of the Scripture! Have ye then no sense?
SHAKIR What! do you enjoin men to be good and neglect your own souls while you read the Book; have you then no sense?002.045
YUSUFALI Nay, seek (Allah's) help with patient perseverance and prayer It is indeed hard, except to those who bring a lowly spirit,-
PICKTHAL Seek help in patience and prayer; and truly it is hard save for the humble-minded,
SHAKIR And seek assistance through patience and prayer, and most surely it is a hard thing except for the humble ones,002.046
YUSUFALI Who bear in mind the certainty that they are to meet their Lord, and that they are to return to Him.
PICKTHAL Who know that they will have to meet their Lord, and that unto Him they are returning.
SHAKIR Who know that they shall meet their Lord and that they shall return to Him.002.047
YUSUFALI Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other (for My Message).
PICKTHAL O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you and how I preferred you to (all) creatures.
SHAKIR O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations.You are right, the word used in 252 is afawnaa and not ghafara, but even so, I feel this is not for other than the God in that situation.
- And We appointed a meeting time for Moses of forty nights, but then you took the calf after him while you were wicked.
- Then We forgave you after that, perhaps you would be thankful.
IMHO even if you used 'pardon', it still seems an awesome feet for Gabriel and company to do, considering downright idolatory that was done by the people. But, I'm not dismissing it yet, I'll look into it further and see if I come up with something else. Thanks for the interesting insight. )
Peace
Whoever "We" is, "We" has the power to pardon. Humans also have the power to pardon, remember that. Maybe "We" pardoned them but God didn't
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opf
Nice work bro, suggest you work on it , and enlighten us all.
siki
With all due respect, it's Progod's work P
The way I see this, considering that "We" is very close to nature, we might be able to verify the Quran once and for all!
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How about this article?
http//free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/doom.htm
That sheds light also. It shows that God is also close to nature - but as you see therein, far more powerful acts are described when God is mentioned as opposed to "We".
But again, God is not referred to as "I" but as "Your lord". Would me referencing myself as "Your fellow OPF" make any sense?
But here http//www.submission.org/quran/protect.html
We see that the Quran is
...A revelation from the Lord of the universe.
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Peace,
Let me say a few things
- I believe the angels are forces/energies in nature that are designed to drive it, having their specific roles.
- I am also of the opinion that when We is mentioned in the Quran it can include God or disclude God. For instance if God forgives a people and tells Gabriel and the angels to erase the negative impressions of their evil deeds then when Gabriel says We pardoned them that means that God and the angels are in that act. The same goes for revelation. However, when it is said 'Lord it is You we worship' then here only the angels involved with the Quran can be included in the We.
Thanks OPF for trying to elaborate on this issue and to everyone for being open minded enough to discuss this.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
In these verses, God is spoken of as "he" rather then "we". The "we" seem to be some other group seperate from the angels too.
And We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam." So they submitted except for Satan, he said "Shall I submit to one you have created from mud!"
He said "Shall I show You this one whom You have preferred over me, that if You respite me until the Day of Resurrection, I will seize his progeny, except for a few."
He said "Go, and whoever follows you from them. Hell shall be the reward to you all, a reward well deserved."
"And entice whoever you can of them with your voice, and mobilize all your forces and men against them, and you may share with them in their money and children, and promise them." But the devil promises nothing but deceit.
"As for My servants, you will have no power over them." And your Lord suffices as a Caretaker.
And We created you, then We shaped you, then We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam;" so they submitted except for Satan, he was not of those who submitted.
He said "What has prevented you from submitting when I have ordered you?" He said "I am far better than him, You created me from fire and created him from clay!"
He said "Descend from it, it is not for you to be arrogant here; depart, for you are disgraced."
He said "Grant me respite until the Day they are resurrected?"
He said "You are granted."
He said "For that which You have caused me to be misled, I will stalk for them on Your Straight Path."
"Then I will come to them from between their hands, and from behind them, and from their right, and from their left; You will find most of them are unappreciative."
He said "Get out from this, you are despised and banished. As for those of them who follow you, I will fill Hell with you all!"
In the end of the day it probably is not important. We should just strive to do good and believe in one God.
Ali
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And We created you, then We shaped you, then We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam;" so they submitted except for Satan, he was not of those who submitted.
In these verses, God is spoken of as "he" rather then "we". The "we" seem to be some other group seperate from the angels too.
And We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam." So they submitted except for Satan, he said "Shall I submit to one you have created from mud!"
Peace,
With all due respect this does not disclude the Angels from being We. If a group of us create something novel and then we speak to Mankind about the importance of our message or tell all mankind to pay us attention does that mean that we cannot be included within 'mankind.'
Godbless,
Anwar -
Anwar!
Assalamu Alakum Brother
you have a point there, but some how i think, That Angels angel were not included in the "Entities" , who took active part in the process of human creation , off course they are being used as tools to control this Test Bed. jedi
siki
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Game over.
013.015
YUSUFALI Whatever beings there are in the heavens and the earth do prostrate themselves to Allah (Acknowledging subjection),- with good-will or in spite of themselves so do their shadows in the morning and evenings.
PICKTHAL And unto Allah falleth prostrate whosoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, as do their shadows in the morning and the evening hours.
SHAKIR And whoever is in the heavens and the earth makes obeisance to Allah only, willingly and unwillingly, and their shadows too at morn and eve.013.016
YUSUFALI Say "Who is the Lord and Sustainer of the heavens and the earth?" Say "(It is) Allah." Say "Do ye then take (for worship) protectors other than Him, such as have no power either for good or for harm to themselves?" Say "Are the blind equal with those who see? Or the depths of darkness equal with light?" Or do they assign to Allah partners who have created (anything) as He has created, so that the creation seemed to them similar? Say "Allah is the Creator of all things He is the One, the Supreme and Irresistible."Royal "We" it is.
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Now I am definitely confused.
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When someone speaks of himself in the third person, this is a royal he I believe.
There are three instances from what I understand
- I - as in Ud3uuni, astajib lakum, or
- We - Laqad khalaqna al-insaan
- He/That/Your - Hu Allahu al Lazhi laa ilaaha illaa hu, or Sub7aanahu, or Sabbi7isma Rabbik
The "I" is used in very specific terms, for when God's own speech is there, OR (read on for another theory)... the We denotes, in my opinion, a manifestation of God and His Laws (expressed as multiple voices)... And if it is multiple voices, that makes perfect sense in terms of Chapter "The Pen" among other instances
6844 Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this narration; We will entice them from where they do not perceive.
6845 And I will lead them on; for My scheming is formidable.Within two consecutive verses, It seems there are two distinct tones... the collective is enticing while one voice says it will lead mankind for its scheming is formidable.
I think that Quran is a "multiple input/voice" message; it is coherent and it isfrom one entity, but not in terms of what we normally understand as "coherence", "unity" and "origin" ... One more riddle in my mind -[
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I'll post it again because I had some mistakes.
Peace,
Sorry OPF but you should study the word shareek. A shareek is a peer, i.e. one on an equal level. No partner in the sense of helper. This is what Ishraak is (making someone equal to another). Again there a parts in the Quran where the I and the we cannot be God.
Godbless,
Anwar