"We" vs God Alone
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Peace,
In these verses, God is spoken of as "he" rather then "we". The "we" seem to be some other group seperate from the angels too.
And We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam." So they submitted except for Satan, he said "Shall I submit to one you have created from mud!"
He said "Shall I show You this one whom You have preferred over me, that if You respite me until the Day of Resurrection, I will seize his progeny, except for a few."
He said "Go, and whoever follows you from them. Hell shall be the reward to you all, a reward well deserved."
"And entice whoever you can of them with your voice, and mobilize all your forces and men against them, and you may share with them in their money and children, and promise them." But the devil promises nothing but deceit.
"As for My servants, you will have no power over them." And your Lord suffices as a Caretaker.
And We created you, then We shaped you, then We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam;" so they submitted except for Satan, he was not of those who submitted.
He said "What has prevented you from submitting when I have ordered you?" He said "I am far better than him, You created me from fire and created him from clay!"
He said "Descend from it, it is not for you to be arrogant here; depart, for you are disgraced."
He said "Grant me respite until the Day they are resurrected?"
He said "You are granted."
He said "For that which You have caused me to be misled, I will stalk for them on Your Straight Path."
"Then I will come to them from between their hands, and from behind them, and from their right, and from their left; You will find most of them are unappreciative."
He said "Get out from this, you are despised and banished. As for those of them who follow you, I will fill Hell with you all!"
In the end of the day it probably is not important. We should just strive to do good and believe in one God.
Ali
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And We created you, then We shaped you, then We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam;" so they submitted except for Satan, he was not of those who submitted.
In these verses, God is spoken of as "he" rather then "we". The "we" seem to be some other group seperate from the angels too.
And We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam." So they submitted except for Satan, he said "Shall I submit to one you have created from mud!"
Peace,
With all due respect this does not disclude the Angels from being We. If a group of us create something novel and then we speak to Mankind about the importance of our message or tell all mankind to pay us attention does that mean that we cannot be included within 'mankind.'
Godbless,
Anwar -
Anwar!
Assalamu Alakum Brother
you have a point there, but some how i think, That Angels angel were not included in the "Entities" , who took active part in the process of human creation , off course they are being used as tools to control this Test Bed. jedi
siki
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Game over.
013.015
YUSUFALI Whatever beings there are in the heavens and the earth do prostrate themselves to Allah (Acknowledging subjection),- with good-will or in spite of themselves so do their shadows in the morning and evenings.
PICKTHAL And unto Allah falleth prostrate whosoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, as do their shadows in the morning and the evening hours.
SHAKIR And whoever is in the heavens and the earth makes obeisance to Allah only, willingly and unwillingly, and their shadows too at morn and eve.013.016
YUSUFALI Say "Who is the Lord and Sustainer of the heavens and the earth?" Say "(It is) Allah." Say "Do ye then take (for worship) protectors other than Him, such as have no power either for good or for harm to themselves?" Say "Are the blind equal with those who see? Or the depths of darkness equal with light?" Or do they assign to Allah partners who have created (anything) as He has created, so that the creation seemed to them similar? Say "Allah is the Creator of all things He is the One, the Supreme and Irresistible."Royal "We" it is.
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Now I am definitely confused.
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When someone speaks of himself in the third person, this is a royal he I believe.
There are three instances from what I understand
- I - as in Ud3uuni, astajib lakum, or
- We - Laqad khalaqna al-insaan
- He/That/Your - Hu Allahu al Lazhi laa ilaaha illaa hu, or Sub7aanahu, or Sabbi7isma Rabbik
The "I" is used in very specific terms, for when God's own speech is there, OR (read on for another theory)... the We denotes, in my opinion, a manifestation of God and His Laws (expressed as multiple voices)... And if it is multiple voices, that makes perfect sense in terms of Chapter "The Pen" among other instances
6844 Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this narration; We will entice them from where they do not perceive.
6845 And I will lead them on; for My scheming is formidable.Within two consecutive verses, It seems there are two distinct tones... the collective is enticing while one voice says it will lead mankind for its scheming is formidable.
I think that Quran is a "multiple input/voice" message; it is coherent and it isfrom one entity, but not in terms of what we normally understand as "coherence", "unity" and "origin" ... One more riddle in my mind -[
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I'll post it again because I had some mistakes.
Peace,
Sorry OPF but you should study the word shareek. A shareek is a peer, i.e. one on an equal level. No partner in the sense of helper. This is what Ishraak is (making someone equal to another). Again there a parts in the Quran where the I and the we cannot be God.
Godbless,
Anwar -
I'll post it again because I had some mistakes.
Peace,
Sorry OPF but you should study the word shareek. A shareek is a peer, i.e. one on an equal level. No partner in the sense of helper. This is what Ishraak is (making someone equal to another). Again there a parts in the Quran where the I and the we cannot be God.
Godbless,
AnwarI always thought that word to mean any form of associate. The translations didn't help either
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Does one form of an Arabic root relate to another? For instance
009.031
YUSUFALI They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him). -
The English word partner doesn't do full justice to the word, though it does do relative justice. Shareek literally means an equal partner, one who has an equal share or a peer. A partner in a company is one on the same level. For instance the word companions or associates are people on the same level, i.e. peers. The angels are his servants, not his associates or his partners. They are what God uses to enact his will with many things. If a kings deputy exonerates you, isn't always in the name of the king, because the king forgives you? Well the angels are his deputies and He is their king. So Ishraak(Quranicallly this is the correct form of the word) is not saying that someone can do what God does or act in his behalf it is saying that someone or something is an equal partner with God, that includes treating them as such also. Ishraakullaahi is making equals with God, not saying that He doesn't work alone.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Whenever the term "we" is use in the Koran, it refer to any entity used by GOD to accomplished anything (living or non living). There is no such thing as a royal We. GOD in the Koran uses the the term 'we' as it should be used. Therefore, whenever GOD mention "we" it means GOD did something with the participation of other entities. Here is one example;
2851
We have delivered the message (the quran) to them, that they may take heed.GOD use other entities to deliever the Koran to mankind, therefore he mentions that fact. As with the Koran delivery, the Holy Spirit (Gabriel) helped deliever the Koran (16102). GOD being Appreciative (215 mention this fact by using the term WE.
Also, GOD may say 'we' in the Koran, and at times say 'He' when mentioning the creation of the heaven and earth (117). Why? Because he initiated it (679). Therefore he actually created it. But other entities participated within the creation. An analogy will be a person who created a movie. Surely he didn't do it by himself (write the script, shot the action, cast the actors), but he is credit as the creator of the movie simply because the original concept and idea was his. Although GOD need nothing, he is appreciative (215.
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Whenever the term "we" is use in the Koran, it refer to any entity used by GOD to accomplished anything (living or non living). There is no such thing as a royal We. GOD in the Koran uses the the term 'we' as it should be used. Therefore, whenever GOD mention "we" it means GOD did something with the participation of other entities. Here is one example;
2851
We have delivered the message (the quran) to them, that they may take heed.GOD use other entities to deliever the Koran to mankind, therefore he mentions that fact. As with the Koran delivery, the Holy Spirit (Gabriel) helped deliever the Koran (16102). GOD being Appreciative (215 mention this fact by using the term WE.
Also, GOD may say 'we' in the Koran, and at times say 'He' when mentioning the creation of the heaven and earth (117). Why? Because he initiated it (679). Therefore he actually created it. But other entities participated within the creation. An analogy will be a person who created a movie. Surely he didn't do it by himself (write the script, shot the action, cast the actors), but he is credit as the creator of the movie simply because the original concept and idea was his. Although GOD need nothing, he is appreciative (215.
Very good post )
I agree with SHM
There is NO possibility of a Royal WE, the royal we does not exist in certain languages. Are we bringing God down to human level, saying that he needs an ego boost by raising himself to "a royal we" ?
siki
Yes, he just attributes 99 names to himself rotfl
Come on, we're talking about a, the God here, God does as God pleases.
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The greater issue is not the misconception of a royal 'we' but that GOD acknowledges that other entities are employed to achieve His goal. This goes against many who argue "quran alone" extremely.
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Very good post
Yes, he just attributes 99 names to himself rotfl
Come on, we're talking about a, the God here, God does as God pleases.
Hi OPF
In the above post, as well as in all my previous ones I wrote exactly what SHM wrote. You remark Very Good post for him, and mock what i typed.
Brother! i am a little confused, confused because i fail to understand '( the reasons, as to what tickled your funny bone?
siki
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Yes, he just attributes 99 names to himself rotfl
Come on, we're talking about a, the God here, God does as God pleases.
OPF
you cant be serious , wow Do you really mean that when God lists his attributes in Quran for his creation, He is getting an Ego Boost? o
siki