Who are the true believers? please vote.Thanks.

phoenix1

peace Ijaz,
I disagree. Sort of.
When we "set up partners with god", and follow falsehood, we can't do good anymore. We need to know the truth to know what's truly right or wrong.
And idolatory is not just believing that Jesus is the son of god, it's about following your desires and ego instead of god. Everything bad that people do is because they put themselves higher than god. When you do that, you believe what you want to believe, you do whatever you can to serve yourself, even if it means stealing, killing, hurting people etc.
That's why it's the unforgivable sin. You can never stop doing bad things unless you get rid of your ego and start controlling your emotions and desires.

But the thing is that no one is black or white. Everyone is gray. And we're always moving from one state to another.
One moment we are believers, the next we are rejectors. Sometimes we are able to see the truth, at other times we find it hard to open our eyes.
Sometimes we do good and other times we do bad.
We're always in this cycle. We have to stop it. We have to ALWAYS focus on the truth. And we always have to remain peaceful. The quran says do not die except as muslim.

So, a Christian might be a believer in some ways and not a believer in other ways. And the same goes for everyone else, with the exception of a few people who always follow the truth and do the right thing.

ijaz

Salaam Lobster,

I agree with you ego is included as an idol, so is Hadith, money, property, land etc..

What I gave was a brief synopsis of what I considered as idols..

peace Ijaz,
I disagree. Sort of.

So, a Christian might be a believer in some ways and not a believer in other ways. And the same goes for everyone else, with the exception of a few people who always follow the truth and do the right thing.

What do you think of a Christain who believes Jesus is son of God??

Regards

Ijaz

phoenix1

peace ijaz,

I agree with you ego is included as an idol, so is Hadith, money, property, land etc..

Yes, but the reason I mentioned it was because your ego is your "original" idol. Every other idol that you believe in stems from that. I think. whatever falsehood you believe in, it's because you want to believe in it.

What do you think of a Christain who believes Jesus is son of God??

Well, in that respect that person is not a believer, obviously.
but the thing is, that person may also believe that killing an innocent person is wrong, that lying and cheating and stealing is wrong. Those are not false or bad beliefs.
I would say more, but it's just so hard to put into words. Maybe it's not clear in my own mind yet.

But I don't believe that belief in God and doing good works are independent. They're both connected.

unknownuser

Salaam salgan,

To me idol would be someone who you love more then or equal to God, or someone who you think can ultimately give you paradise when you die, the most popular examples are Muhammad and Jesus, the Sunni's believe Muhammad can do all the above and some Christians believe the Jesus is God..

Regards

Ijaz

When did Sunnis believe that? Seriously. Sunni-ism still has a broad spectrum of differing opinions.

donya

Well, in that respect that person is not a believer, obviously.
but the thing is, that person may also believe that killing an innocent person is wrong, that lying and cheating and stealing is wrong. Those are not false or bad beliefs.
I would say more, but it's just so hard to put into words. Maybe it's not clear in my own mind yet.

But I don't believe that belief in God and doing good works are independent. They're both connected.

But what if that Christian person is a model human being in every other sense and did more good for humanity than most people ever alive? I.e. someone like Mother Theresa? What category is this person in - do you believe in either believer or kafir, or in different grades, i.e. believer, submitter/peaceful, criminal, kafir, hypocrite? And finally, is it a person's fault for believing that Jesus is the son of God if they've been lied to by some corrupt ruler who changed the face of Christianity in this respect ages and ages ago?
And most Christians today, fyi, believe that Jesus IS God...that Jesus was a representation of God. So it's somewhat confusing, and I don't know if I would definitely classify that as an "idol"

phoenix1

peace Donya,
This is how I see it
We are...
kafir, when we follow whatever we want, either knowingly rejecting the truth or not bothering to take ourselves out of our "comfort zone" to find out what the truth really is.

believer, when we believe in the truth and base our actions on it.

I've noticed that sometimes it is easier for me to accept something as true, and other times it's not so easy. Maybe the signs are clearer sometimes, I dunno. There are scientists who's job is to test every claim and prove everything before following it, yet they want to "have faith" in something like god or miracles or something. Sometimes, they are determined to find the truth, and other times they are content with what they already believe.

What happens is that if we believe in something without knowing its truthfulness, we put ourselves in danger of being misguided, and making the wrong decisions.
Abraham almost killed his son because he wrongly believed that god wanted him to sacrifice his son.

The key to being a believer is peace. When we are at peace, we are free from emotions and desires that sway us in different directions and we are able to see the true reality.

The christian who does good could be doing it for two reasons

out of fear, which means that she is only good because others are telling her to be, and if they tell her otherwise, she'll do that because she don't wanna burn in hell or whatever. it's not really her belief.
people can have the wrong idea of what "good" actually is. Osama thinks killing infidels is a great thing.
she actually does believe that doing good.
if you really believe in doing good, then no matter what you else you believe, you will not go against that belief.
If someone tells you that god wants you to kill your family, you won't do that because you know it is wrong to kill people.
Okay, I have no idea what I'm saying anymore so I'll stop until I can sort out my thoughts. Sorry if the above makes no sense.

ijaz

Salaam donya,

But what if that Christian person is a model human being in every other sense and did more good for humanity than most people ever alive? I.e. someone like Mother Theresa? What category is this person in - do you believe in either believer or kafir, or in different grades, i.e. believer, submitter/peaceful, criminal, kafir, hypocrite? And finally, is it a person's fault for believing that Jesus is the son of God if they've been lied to by some corrupt ruler who changed the face of Christianity in this respect ages and ages ago?
And most Christians today, fyi, believe that Jesus IS God...that Jesus was a representation of God. So it's somewhat confusing, and I don't know if I would definitely classify that as an "idol"

As I quoted the verses from Quran earlier that the biggest sin in the Quran is idol worship, no matter how good one is.

Look at it this way, idolworshippers are the ones who reveare things or humans, while God is the one who created him/her, God is the one who provides for him/her, why would you then reveare some one else and thank some one else for what God has given you. Hence the idolatry is big BIG sin.

God send messengers to remind us of who our God is if the humans do not heed them, it is their responsibility. A human need to investigate the religions and come to the right decision, that is their responsibility..

However, God knows who is believer and who is not, and He does guide the righteous..

In your example that person will end up in Hell, no matter how good he was, because he idol worshipped..

Regards

Ijaz

ijaz

Salaam Lobster,

peace Donya,
This is how I see it
We are...
kafir, when we follow whatever we want, either knowingly rejecting the truth or not bothering to take ourselves out of our "comfort zone" to find out what the truth really is.

believer, when we believe in the truth and base our actions on it.

I've noticed that sometimes it is easier for me to accept something as true, and other times it's not so easy. Maybe the signs are clearer sometimes, I dunno. There are scientists who's job is to test every claim and prove everything before following it, yet they want to "have faith" in something like god or miracles or something. Sometimes, they are determined to find the truth, and other times they are content with what they already believe.

What happens is that if we believe in something without knowing its truthfulness, we put ourselves in danger of being misguided, and making the wrong decisions.
Abraham almost killed his son because he wrongly believed that god wanted him to sacrifice his son.

The key to being a believer is peace. When we are at peace, we are free from emotions and desires that sway us in different directions and we are able to see the true reality.

The christian who does good could be doing it for two reasons

out of fear, which means that she is only good because others are telling her to be, and if they tell her otherwise, she'll do that because she don't wanna burn in hell or whatever. it's not really her belief.
people can have the wrong idea of what "good" actually is. Osama thinks killing infidels is a great thing.
she actually does believe that doing good.
if you really believe in doing good, then no matter what you else you believe, you will not go against that belief.
If someone tells you that god wants you to kill your family, you won't do that because you know it is wrong to kill people.
Okay, I have no idea what I'm saying anymore so I'll stop until I can sort out my thoughts. Sorry if the above makes no sense.

****You forgot the most important aspect, THE DISBELIEVER WILL GIVE TO CHARITY FOR HIS IDOLS AND BELIEVER WILL GIVE TO CHARITY FOR GOD ALONE..

Regards

Ijaz

donya

Salaam donya,

As I quoted the verses from Quran earlier that the biggest sin in the Quran is idol worship, no matter how good one is.

Look at it this way, idolworshippers are the ones who reveare things or humans, while God is the one who created him/her, God is the one who provides for him/her, why would you then reveare some one else and thank some one else for what God has given you. Hence the idolatry is big BIG sin.

However, God knows who is believer and who is not, and He does guide the righteous..

In your example that person will end up in Hell, no matter how good he was, because he idol worshipped..

Regards

Ijaz

Caring about humanity and philanthropy is idol worship? hmm, interesting. So this makes it seem that our only purpose is to worship, and doing good to others is just an afterthought.

I was under the impression that "idols" are things which are man-made. Doing good to others and the will to do good, as evinced in the Quran, is supposed to be intrinsic to our nature, a God-given instinct, so I don't think that in itself would classify as idolatry.

God send messengers to remind us of who our God is if the humans do not heed them, it is their responsibility. A human need to investigate the religions and come to the right decision, that is their responsibility..

How are people supposed to know that it is their RESPONSIBILITY to investigate religions and come to the "right decision"? Is this an instinct? If you look at the people in the world, for most people religion is an INHERITED thing...they were graciously blessed with the opportunity to learn about religion by being introduced by their families. Otherwise, today especially, religion can seem like somewhat of a silly thing. Religion is not necessary for the lay person of the modern world, unlike back then. Something to think about.

Best,

mz

Salaams,

here is some info;

036.046
YUSUFALI Not a Sign comes to them from among the Signs of their Lord, but they turn away therefrom.

they don't want to do anything worthwhile for humanity.

036.047
YUSUFALI And when they are told, "Spend ye of (the bounties) with which Allah has provided you," the Unbelievers say to those who believe "Shall we then feed those whom, if Allah had so willed, He would have fed, (Himself)?- Ye are in nothing but manifest error."

I think unbelievers believe in kismet- that everything is pre-ordained.

And also disbelievers don't give - i think.

Gods Bless all.

donya

Salaams,

here is some info;

036.046
YUSUFALI Not a Sign comes to them from among the Signs of their Lord, but they turn away therefrom.

they don't want to do anything worthwhile for humanity.

036.047
YUSUFALI And when they are told, "Spend ye of (the bounties) with which Allah has provided you," the Unbelievers say to those who believe "Shall we then feed those whom, if Allah had so willed, He would have fed, (Himself)?- Ye are in nothing but manifest error."

I think unbelievers believe in kismet- that everything is pre-ordained.

And also disbelievers don't give - i think.

Gods Bless all.

Salaam mz,

I agree with you. I wrote a little about who I think the "unbelievers" are in this thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14656.0
Given the historical context and the context of the verses, it appears that God was directly addressing the ruling Meccan elite who refused to follow Mohammad and submit to God for fear of losing their wealth and power...so it makes most sense in the context of many of the verses addressing the kafir that it most directly speaks of these oppressive people, and those similar to them throughout time. Now, I'm sure there are different grades of disbelief, but this seems to be most deserving of the punishment for it, according to the Quran.

Best,

ijaz

Salaam donya,

Caring about humanity and philanthropy is idol worship? hmm, interesting. So this makes it seem that our only purpose is to worship, and doing good to others is just an afterthought.

No please do not be awkward, I explained clearly what makes idolworship .i.e. in this case calling Jesus son of God..

I was under the impression that "idols" are things which are man-made. Doing good to others and the will to do good, as evinced in the Quran, is supposed to be intrinsic to our nature, a God-given instinct, so I don't think that in itself would classify as idolatry.

Once again you going of the point, there is nothing wrong with doing good, but there is giganticaly wrong with calling Jesus son of God, this sin wipes away all the good one has done..

How are people supposed to know that it is their RESPONSIBILITY to investigate religions and come to the "right decision"? Is this an instinct? If you look at the people in the world, for most people religion is an INHERITED thing...they were graciously blessed with the opportunity to learn about religion by being introduced by their families. Otherwise, today especially, religion can seem like somewhat of a silly thing. Religion is not necessary for the lay person of the modern world, unlike back then. Something to think about.

Best,

Christian read bible and Muslims read Quran, but majority do not even grasp the bare essentials, that is why you are different from Sunnis. Tell me where does it say the Jesus is son of God in the bible, but some christians believe that.

God with His immense mercy has left signs every where to contemplate and reflect, if people do not do that then its their own responsibility..

Let me give you some basics of God's Mercy on man kind.

God with His Almighty Grace gave us three chances to redeem ourselves, this world is our third and last chance, so please do not say that God is unfair, let me go through each case with quotes from the Quran;

First chance;
The Great Feud

Say, "Here is awesome news.

"That you are totally oblivious to.

"I had no knowledge previously, about the feud in the High Society.*

This is description of the great fued, before which we were all angels, we humans rebelled and wanted not to be part of Gods creation, ie idolised Satan, we should have been banished, however, God categoriesed us as humans.

Second Chance;
Freedom of Choice

We have offered the responsibility (freedom of choice) to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were afraid of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.

God gave us another chance where we were offered freedom of choice, the animals and all other creatures refused but we accepted it.

Third;
He thus duped them with lies. As soon as they tasted the tree, their bodies became visible to them, and they tried to cover themselves with the leaves of Paradise. Their Lord called upon them "Did I not enjoin you from that tree, and warn you that the devil is your most ardent enemy?"

They said, "Our Lord, we have wronged our souls, and unless You forgive us and have mercy on us, we will be losers."

He said, "Go down as enemies of one another. On earth shall be your habitation and provision for awhile."

The earth was created and we were sent down..

Now you would say that is enough, however, God has given fourty years to each human to observe, reflect and decide who their God is. The age of responsibility is 40.

That should be enough don't you think..

40 The Age of Decision

We enjoined the human being to honor his parents. His mother bore him arduously, gave birth to him arduously, and took intimate care of him for thirty months. When he reaches maturity, and reaches the age of forty,* he should say, "My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do the righteous works that please You. Let my children be righteous as well. I have repented to You; I am a submitter."

Regards

Ijaz

ijaz

Salaam mz,

Salaams,

here is some info;

they don't want to do anything worthwhile for humanity.

036.047
YUSUFALI And when they are told, "Spend ye of (the bounties) with which Allah has provided you," the Unbelievers say to those who believe "Shall we then feed those whom, if Allah had so willed, He would have fed, (Himself)?- Ye are in nothing but manifest error."

I think unbelievers believe in kismet- that everything is pre-ordained.

And also disbelievers don't give - i think.

Gods Bless all.

I am sure you are mislead that disbelievers don't give, let me give you an example would you say Tony Blair or President Bush are believers, I am sure you will say that they are not, however they do give to charity, and there are many more examples..

Regards

Ijaz

mz

Salaams All,

i don't think anybody can serve someone who is not present in life, can you? i don't think so Br.

But if you say it isn't serving but worshipping then you will be sending Jesus to hell according to 2198 - i think.

and i do think 575 is an example for us all not to serve others then Allah, and do think it is in the past tense Br.

They did blaspheme who said "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ "O Children of Israel! serve Allah my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah - Allah will forbid him the garden and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrongdoers be no one to help..
-- Sura 575

Surely you and what you serve besides Allah
are the firewood of hell; to it you shall come.
-- Sura 2198

can anyone explain all this.

Thanks All.

ijaz

Salaam mz,

Salaams All,

i don't think anybody can serve someone who is not present in life, can you? i don't think so Br.

I agree with you on above no one can serve anyone who is dead!!

But if you say it isn't serving but worshipping then you will be sending Jesus to hell according to 2198 - i think.

No I don't beleive that Jesus will go to Hell, because we know he was not an Idol and that he worshipped God alone. 2198 is an example of Idols who are Idols such as Sadaam Hussain, and so called saints who say they can do miracles for people like giving them sons besides daughters, these are the idols which are addressed in 2198. These idols also say that if you believe in what we believe you will go to heaven etc, these are evil people.

When Jesus died he did not know that he will be set up as an idol, he is made into idol by people he did not wanted to be an idol..

and i do think 575 is an example for us all not to serve others then Allah, and do think it is in the past tense Br.

They did blaspheme who said "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ "O Children of Israel! serve Allah my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah - Allah will forbid him the garden and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrongdoers be no one to help..
-- Sura 575

Surely you and what you serve besides Allah
are the firewood of hell; to it you shall come.
-- Sura 2198

can anyone explain all this.

Thanks All.

Yes we should ultimately serve God, but it does not mean if your Boss asks you to do something for him, you should decline, because you can only serve God. You can serve God by serving people as well.. I think the word you are looking for is worship, and it is true that one should worship God Alone, using Quran Alone.

Regards

Ijaz

mz

Salamms ijaz,

but it does not mean if your Boss asks you to do something for him, you should decline, because you can only serve God. You can serve God by serving people as well...

I think Br. you can only serve God by serving humanity , by applying His attributes- there isn't another way, is there?

Tony Blair and President Bush are believers...

Unless they ever contradict any of Gods attributes at any time then they would be mushriks- i think.

certainly they do blaspheme when they say Jesus is God - but saying that out of a programmed belief doesn't make you a non believer unless you go against any of the attributes of God - i think.

i think most of us are mushriks some of the time, or do you apply the attributes 100% of the time yourself?

ijaz

Salaam mz,

Salamms ijaz,

I think Br. you can only serve God by serving humanity , by applying His attributes- there isn't another way, is there?

Yes there is by following Quran and doing the salat, fasting, Hajj, proclaiming Shahada that there is no God accept the one God, all these things have no one involved accept you and your God.. And these are the real serving..where you build yourself as a true believer..

Unless they ever contradict any of Gods attributes at any time then they would be mushriks- i think.

I know Tony Blair and Bush both believe that Jesus is son of God and that is enough for me to know that they are disbelievers. Its up to you what you believe..

certainly they do blaspheme when they say Jesus is God - but saying that out of a programmed belief doesn't make you a non believer unless you go against any of the attributes of God - i think.

What about going to church and worshipping to Jesus, is that not a sin, I have seen Tony Blair going to church..

i think most of us are mushriks some of the time, or do you apply the attributes 100% of the time yourself?

I hope I am not mushrik at any time, because God tells us the shirk wipes away all the good one has done.. So brother do not include me in your group, thank you, I believe in one God and He guides me when ever I lose path..

Regards

Ijaz

mz

Salaams Ijaz,

I hope I am not mushrik at any time, because God tells us the shirk wipes away all the good one has done.. So brother do not include me in your group, thank you, I believe in one God and He guides me when ever I lose path..

hoping doesn't accomplish as much as doing the right...
shirk wipes away all good one has done ........and where does it say so..please tell me as it is a gigentic statement.
and my brother in islam how do you know you are being guided .....

Thanks Br.

phoenix1

Ijaz, you are right that disbelievers will do good only for themselves, and the believers will do good for the right reason. But that doesn't mean a person who calls themselves Christian and believes in Jesus is doing it JUST BECAUSE Jesus said so. Maybe it's independent of that. In that case, it doesn't matter.
But false beliefs are a problem if we take our actions solely based on those false beliefs.
If we have a false concept of god, then, like Abraham, we might do something bad because we thought that's what god wanted us to do.

And I agree with mz, serving god is all about bringing it's attributes to this world. Anyone who is kind, generous, merciful, even for a moment, is truly god's servant for that moment.

ijaz

Salaam mz,

Salaams Ijaz,

hoping doesn't accomplish as much as doing the right...

In fact I am sure that I never idol worshipped besides God since I got the message!!

shirk wipes away all good one has done ........and where does it say so..please tell me as it is a gigentic statement.

Here is the verse where it says that idol worship wipes away any good one has done;

Such is GOD's guidance, with which He guides whomever He chooses from among His servants. Had any of them fallen into idolatry, their works would have been nullified.

and my brother in islam how do you know you are being guided .....

The answer is simple I check in Quran what I am about to do, and I use mathematical miracle of 19 a lot to reduce the chance of doubt. 7431..

Kind Regards

Ijaz