Is Maryam from the NCRI/MEK a Quran only leader/Imam?
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peace Layth,
Thanks for the reply. I never said wearing of a headscarf was mandatory.
There are a few interesting issues which come to mind about this point
Both 56 and 443 address men. We have assumed it has referred to both. Is this assumption valid?
It would be interesting to see if there were other examples in AQ similar to 56 and 443 in which it MUST refer to both but only addresses men. I have not researched this point.
AQ does say as-salat is for both men & women, e.g. 971
I am not aware of any regular/timed slw examples given in AQ involving women. I know bro mh or zlatan felt that the regular/timed slw command was only upon men. I never really researched this point but I cannot see any reason why this would be the case.
If there was a communal/group example of slw in AQ involving women, then that would disprove covering of the head as mandatory.
Has the word "khimaar" been used in any other sense in a Classical Arabic dictionary when referring to women other than a "headcover"? -
Peace bro Wakas, all,
The call to connection on the day of gathering in 629 starts with "yaa ayyuhallazeena aamanoo", which obviously includes both believing men and women, so women can congregate with men for salaat.
Similarly, 2153 and 2277 address both believing men and women.
As for the other points that have been brought up regarding "khimaar", they were covered in a recent heated discussion involving me at the following thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14453.0
My participation started with reply #121 on page 9.
Two points
- "Khimaar" also covers the lower face in addition to head according to Lane's, when used in the sense of a head cover. Thus it would be a "head and lower face cover", and not just "head cover".
The full definition of "khimaar" according to Lane's Lexicon pertaining to "head cover"
Khimaar
- Khumur is the plural of "khimaar" and "khimirr", both of which also mean "ANY COVERING of a thing" or "ANYTHING by which a thing is veiled, or covered" according to Lane's Lexicon (Book 1, page 809, also see under the root Kh-M-R in Project Root List, LL Volume 2, page 445)
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peace Layth,
There are a few interesting issues which come to mind about this point
Both 56 and 443 address men. We have assumed it has referred to both. Is this assumption valid?
It would be interesting to see if there were other examples in AQ similar to 56 and 443 in which it MUST refer to both but only addresses men.Salaam Wakas
In fact, the whole qur'aan is addressing both genders in the generic male form, except when it is addressing specific females (e.g wives of the prophet; mariam..). In other words, it addresses the generic male, exceptionally gendered male and gendered female.
However, I think I understand what you mean. Is verse 55; 629 something you are looking for?
Has the word "khimaar" been used in any other sense in a Classical Arabic dictionary when referring to women other than a "headcover"?
Men headcover.
Lisaanul3arab says under "khimaar"
For men cover of the head; for women it is called "naSeef".
Looking up "naSeef"
It is said that it is the head cover, but the famous poet Annaabighal Thubiaani used it to mean something like a "sarong". Another linguist says it is an "overall", worn over all the woman's clothes.It seems that lisaanul3arab does not have a clear cut meaning for "head cover for women", it just says "it is said that..". However, it is used in hadeeth literature as head cover for men (specifically mentioned in relation to the prophet) according to lisaanul3arab
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peace,
Thanks for the extra info.
Bro. Tanveer, are you sure Lane says "khimaar" can mean "ANY COVERING of a thing" or "ANYTHING by which a thing is veiled, or covered". In Lane this description follows "khimirr".
629 is a possibility.
Sis. Samia, 55 refers to dowries, which makes it more male-specific. I understand AQ primarily addresses men (or as you said the generic male) but I know from experience AQ's word choice is always precise so when things are specific I like to take this into account.
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Sis. Samia, 55 refers to dowries, which makes it more male-specific. I understand AQ primarily addresses men (or as you said the generic male) but I know from experience AQ's word choice is always precise so when things are specific I like to take this into account.
Salaam Wakas
Simple. Just as you change the address to the feminine, the related "mu7Sanaat" becomes "mu7Saneen", remove the dowery part (if it is irrelevant) for women. More logical than shifting the address in the middle of the verse for no reason from the generic to the gendered masculine, not even after a coma; or making the food of the "ahlul kitaab" '7alaal' to men only.
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Peace bro Wakas,
Bro. Tanveer, are you sure Lane says "khimaar" can mean "ANY COVERING of a thing" or "ANYTHING by which a thing is veiled, or covered". In Lane this description follows "khimirr".
It gives definitions of "khimaar" and then says as also "khimirr"; does that not make them synonymous ?
Anyway, the word used in the Qur'aan is "khumur" which is also the plural of "khimirr", and can thus mean "any coverings".
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Salaam
In 2460 elderly women are allowed to do away with their dresses/thiyab/ thawb without displaying their beauty/attraction. Can someone give an analysis of this verse.
Can this imply an outer garment although the word used is ?thiyab??
If thiyab means dress/garment why no mention of as separate veil if the veil is necessary?
What is the clear definition of zeenat according to this verse ?
Is it possible to take of the thawb and still conceal the beauty? -
Salaam Warner,
According to Lane Lexicon, "thiyaab" is plural of "thawb" (th-w-b)
Thawb = A garment that is worn by men, composed of linen, cotton, wool, fur, silk, or the like; but not what is cut out of several pieces, such as the shirt, and trousers, or drawers etc.
Thus it appears that "thiyaab" in the context of 2460, refers to the loose outer garment worn by women over their regular clothes (similar to the "jilbaab" in 3359).
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peace all,
More logical than shifting the address in the middle of the verse for no reason from the generic to the gendered masculine, not even after a coma; or making the food of the "ahlul kitaab" '7alaal' to men only.
You will know more about features of Arabic prose more so than me so I cant really comment if a shift would be logical or not. I think the example you provided will work because as far as I can recall AQ does not state anywhere else that food of "ahlul kitaab" is lawful. I dont have my resources with me so cant check.
It gives definitions of "khimaar" and then says as also "khimirr"; does that not make them synonymous ?
I was not sure, hence asking. It followed NaSeeF, so it may refer to that.
Anyway, the word used in the Qur'aan is "khumur" which is also the plural of "khimirr", and can thus mean "any coverings".
Did you get this from Lane? If not, where? As I said above I dont have my resources with me, so cant check.
Can 971 imply group and regular salat for women?
It does not imply group to me, nor the regular/timed slw, hence asking for examples of this in AQ. 629 is a possibility.
The point about "thiyaab" is interesting, but I have not studied this. I tend to study things applicable to me first, and obviously women's clothing does not apply to me... despite what you may have heard.
*yes, that last comment was a joke.
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Salaam all,
Did you get this from Lane? If not, where? As I said above I dont have my resources with me, so cant check.
Please look up Kha-Miim-Ra in Project Root List, LL, V2, page 445, middle bottom and top right columns.
Dose this mean the rest of the women are instructed in the Quraan to wear an outer garment.
3359 O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they should lengthen upon themselves their outer garments (jalaabeebihinna). That is better so that they will be recognized and not harmed. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
"Jalabeeb" is the plural of "jilbaab" which is a loose outer garment, like a gown or cloak.
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peace Tanveer,
Is it the following you are referring to (first two Arabic words, bottom line of pic)? I never found anything in the middle and bottom part of right column.
http//img2.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?a0ab376d34.jpg
Perhaps Samia can clarify.
It is definitely making "khimaar" equivalent (i.q.) to "naSeef", but then does it make "naSeef" also as "khimirr" or "khimaar" as well? Also if the plural of "khimirr" is "khumur". -
peace Tanveer,
http//img2.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?a0ab376d34.jpg
It is definitely making "khimaar" equivalent (i.q.) to "naSeef", but then does it make "naSeef" also as "khimirr" or "khimaar" as well? Also if the plural of "khimirr" is "khumur".
Salaam all
This is what I understood from this link
What is clear from this paragraph is that the word "khimaar" does not show!!
khumur; khumr and akhmira are all plurals of the word khimir, which is another word for naSeef. NaSeef is pertaining to women, whereas khimir pertains to both men and women.naSeef is a khimir, but khimir is not a naSeef.
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peace Samia,
Thanks for the clarification. So "khumur" is used in 2431 and since this can be the plural of "khimir" (which can mean any covering) then in terms of Classical Arabic and grammar, it is perfectly acceptable to translate it as a general covering/veil and NOT a headcover.
Yes I know "khimaar" does not appear in the pic, I was referring to what came previously (found at the bottom of the middle column in Lane, page 445 in PRL)
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume2/00000445.pdfI guess I could have been clearer.
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peace all,
You will know more about features of Arabic prose more so than me so I cant really comment if a shift would be logical or not.
Salaam Wakas
In fact this feature is not specific to arabic, but is universal in all languages. Try to make a sentence in English addressing a group, then shift the address to a different group in the middle of the sentence (without any extra word to allude to the second group).
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However, I think I understand what you mean. Is verse 55; 629 something you are looking for?
Men headcover.
Lisaanul3arab says under "khimaar"
For men cover of the head; for women it is called "naSeef".
Looking up "naSeef"
It is said that it is the head cover, but the famous poet Annaabighal Thubiaani used it to mean something like a "sarong". Another linguist says it is an "overall", worn over all the woman's clothes.It seems that lisaanul3arab does not have a clear cut meaning for "head cover for women", it just says "it is said that..". However, it is used in hadeeth literature as head cover for men (specifically mentioned in relation to the prophet) according to lisaanul3arab
Salam
Absolutely wrong concept
The actual lisanul Arab text goes like this .- ( 4 / 254)
Where are you finding that "Khimar is for men"??
Waiting for reply -
Salam
Absolutely wrong concept
The actual lisanul Arab text goes like this .- ( 4 / 254)
Where are you finding that "Khimar is for men"??
Waiting for replySalaam Leoxyz
First of all I apologize for the belated reply, as I was not online for the past four or five days.
The difference between your post and mine is that you copied what lisanul3arab said and I translated the meaning. Otherwise, how do you understand the Arabic sentence you copied (translation and the khimar for the woman it is the naseef)? I expect you to ask then for whom is the "khimar" as head cover only? If you go on, you will find at the end of the paragraph a "hadith" by Umsalama where she stated that the prophet used to rub on "his khimar". Lisanul 3arab itself said "and it is said that the khimar is what the woman covers her head with", alienating itself from stating this as a linguistic fact, and not revisiting it anymore.
Moreover, when using the verb "takhammarat and ikhtamarat", lisanul3arab further stresses the "non-head-cover-only" meaning by saying takhammarat bil-khimar and ikhtamarat if she wears it and covered her head by it. The point is in "wears ...and covers" which is to be understood as something to be worn first and not just a piece of cloth to cover the head, unlike that of men, and more like a naseef (sarong; overall...)
It is also noteworthy that lisanul3arab did not mention verse 2431 which could be the only proof from a written document that khimar is a head-cover for women, but it did not, nor did it present any other proof. The word mentioned in this verse is "khumur", a broken plural, which, of course, could be the plural of khimaar, but could also be the plural of another word (as stated by brother Tanweer. Please follow the thread from the beginning). Lisanul3arab with its understanding that khimar is not a head-cover for women (but something like a sarong), does not consider this verse as proof of khimaar being head cover, which is what we were discussing. In short, and if you read the whole thread, you will understand how lisanul3arab considers khimar as head-cover for men, not for women, but for women it is like a naseef.
