getting naked!!!!

ImamQuranonly

As-Salaamu Alaikum MW and forum,

peace,

I wanted to get some feedback about getting naked for doctor appointments! Like going to the Ob/Gyn for a pap smear or what not! I recall reading that exposing ones' private parts should only be to their spouses and/or dependants depending on the age and permission etc

but what about a ob/gyn? they are not your spouse nor dependant?

does anyone have another verse that may shed some light on this subject?

If so please post it up for all to see!

motionless wisdom

This is from Surah 24 "An-Noor" (The Light)

{30}

Transliteration Qul lilmu/mineena yaghuddoo min absarihum wayahfathoo furoojahum thalika azka lahum inna Allaha khabeerun bima yasnaAAoona
Literal Say to the believers (to) lower/humble from their eye sights , and they protect/safe keep from their genital parts between their legs, that is more pure/correct for them, that God (is) expert/experienced with what they make/do .
Free-Minds Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, for that is purer for them. God is fully aware of what you do.

{31}

Transliteration Waqul lilmu/minati yaghdudna min absarihinna wayahfathna furoojahunna wala yubdeena zeenatahunna illa ma thahara minha walyadribna bikhumurihinna AAala juyoobihinna wala yubdeena zeenatahunna illa libuAAoolatihinna aw aba-ihinna aw aba-i buAAoolatihinna aw abna-ihinna aw abna-i buAAoolatihinna aw ikhwanihinna aw banee ikhwanihinna aw banee akhawatihinna aw nisa-ihinna aw ma malakat aymanuhunna awi alttabiAAeena ghayri olee al-irbati mina alrrijali awi alttifli allatheena lam yathharoo AAala AAawrati alnnisa-i wala yadribna bi-arjulihinna liyuAAlama ma yukhfeena min zeenatihinna watooboo ila Allahi jameeAAan ayyuha almu/minoona laAAallakum tuflihoona
Literal And say to the believers they (F) lower/humble from their eye sights, and they (F) protect/safe keep from their genital parts between their legs, and they do not show their decoration/beauty except what appeared/is visible from it, and they hold in place/sew (E) with their head covers/covers on their collar opening in clothes/chests , and they do not show their decoration/beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers (fathers in-law), or their sons, or their husband's sons (step- sons), or their brothers, or their brother's sons (nephews), or their sisters' sons (nephews), or their women, or what their right (hands) owned/possessed (i.e. care-giers under contract), or the followers/servants (those) not (owners) of need/desire/intelligence and resourcefulness (without a sexual drive) from the men or the child/children (the very old or very young), those who did not see and know of on the women's shameful genital parts , and they (F) do not beat/strike with their (F) feet to be known what they (F) hide from their decoration/beauty , and repent to God all together , oh you the believers, maybe/perhaps you succeed/win.
Free-Minds And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not show-off their beauty except what is apparent, and let them cast their shawls over their cleavage. And let them not show-off their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their children that come after them, or those who are still their dependants, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed.

These ayaat clearly tell "those who have trusting faith in Allah" that their private parts are not to be exposed (highlighted and bolded in red). The instruction to "those who have trusting faith in Allah and are female" are clearly more detailed in that they reinforce and further define the parameters that Allah sets up for those who will hear and obey(highlighted and bolded in orange, brown and navy). This is not Allah oppressing women, but Allah has clearly made a distinction here in His instructions and commands for women instead of men here. While only men's "private parts" or "genitals" are instructed to be hidden, women are also instructed to hide their "private parts/genitals", "their beauty except what must be apparent" and to "spread/draw near with their khimar over/upon their cleavage"; except to those mentioned which include "their women". "Their women" will obviously include "their female servant, helpers, doctors, etc.", as these are necessary to help with the process of giving birth, etc. Although it is possible for a woman to give birth without help from others, the possible complications make it more prudent to have help. Throughout time this has primarily been done by what is commonly known as a "midwife".

Women are equally intelligent as men, so there is no need for a man to go and study to be an obgyn. Why would a man chose this field in his early studies over all the other fields of medicine available to study? He must be in love or fascinated with the female "genitals" in order to choose such a profession. I call that perverted and don't really care what degree or label a university gives him for his accomplishment of study. Let men study the male private areas and functions, and women study theirs. General areas such as heart, lungs, kidney, etc. can be study by whomever has an interest in that field. I think these ayaat support that idea and train of thought.

With that said, I also believe that in life threatening situations, just as most if not all other restrictions, this becomes a non issue. If someone is in an accident or needs some type of specialize or emergency surgery, the best doctor (male or female) that can save your life is the one that would be permissable; because saving of life overrides these other concerns for modesty. But getting a pap smear, checking the breasts for cancer, or giving birth for women are not life threatening procedures in themselves; unless complications arise of course. But initially they are not, so the choice should be to see someone that is permissilbe for the woman, i.e. "or their women". I think the same restrictions would apply to men as well. As far as those of the same sex that are doctors but homosexuals, that points to my reason for not expecting that some degree will make you moral according to Allah's standards. They should be avoided if it is known or suspected that they are such. If you dont know that they are homosexual, the sin would be on them, not you. Just as the sin is on a rapist, not the victim.

Hope this helps, insha Allah.

As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace

unknownuser

peace

I appreciate imam's response since he did not tell me his opinion without evidence clearly organized, easily verifiable, and directed at me not a side conversation. yes brother this is logical and rational.

i appreciate you taking the time in responding.

issue is cleared up for me!

the quran is enough for me!
motionless wisdom

unknownuser

Salaam IQO, Samia,

Thanks for the posts. What you said makes sense.

fbahadir

Salaam Tanweer

I understand "zeenatuhunna" as psrts of the body specific to women, and hair, accordingly, not included. So, if we consider that "private parts" are specific to women ;D .....then we can have this understanding.

Selam Samia

If that is the case, can women show their special parts of body to her male servants who are needless? For example can women show their breasts to male servants who are needless or to ?ma malakat ayman? or to their brothers etc?Because Allah says ?illa? means women can reveal to them.Today how many women(also men) show their special parts of body to whom are listed in the verse except their husband or say doctors(lets say male servants who are needless but you can also take many men into these category)? I am not good at Arabic but i think there is a misconception here. Maybe ?zeenatuhunna? can be bosom of their clothing which can make parts of women?s breasts seen. Im not sure and Allah knows best.
Can anyone explain it please? Hows "zeenatuhunna" used in other verses?

unknownuser

Can anyone explain it please? Hows "zeenatuhunna" used in other verses?

Selam fbahadir,

man kana yureedu alhayata alddunya wazeenataha nuwaffi ilayhim aAAmalahum feeha wahum feeha la yubkhasoona

1115 Who was/is wanting the life the present/worldly life and its decoration/beauty/ornament, We fulfill/complete to them their deeds in it, and they in it are not being reduced/cheated/caused injustice to.

Also the same usage in verses 1828; 2860; 3328

As to verse 2431 think of breast feeding a baby; OK in front of those persons mentioned.

Samia

As to verse 2431 think of breast feeding a baby; OK in front of those persons mentioned.

Thanks Nun de plume!!

Samia

Salaam IQO, Samia,

Thanks for the posts. What you said makes sense.

Sorry Tanweer, I haven't seen this message until I posted a reply to Nun d plume.

Thank you for thanking us peace, and thank you for your posts as well.

fbahadir

Selam fbahadir,

man kana yureedu alhayata alddunya wazeenataha nuwaffi ilayhim aAAmalahum feeha wahum feeha la yubkhasoona

1115 Who was/is wanting the life the present/worldly life and its decoration/beauty/ornament, We fulfill/complete to them their deeds in it, and they in it are not being reduced/cheated/caused injustice to.

Also the same usage in verses 1828; 2860; 3328

As to verse 2431 think of breast feeding a baby; OK in front of those persons mentioned.

Thanks Nun de plume, this makes sense )

ImamQuranonly

As-Salaamu alaika MW,

All praises to Allah for giving us the Quran as a guidance and a mercy. It is a blessing to be able to contribute anything in the cause of Allah. Thank you for your compliments. May Allah continue to guide us all as He wills.

As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace

peace

I appreciate imam's response since he did not tell me his opinion without evidence clearly organized, easily verifiable, and directed at me not a side conversation. yes brother this is logical and rational.

i appreciate you taking the time in responding.

issue is cleared up for me!

the quran is enough for me!
motionless wisdom

ImamQuranonly

As-Salaamu Alaikum Nun de plume, Tanveer, Samia, MW and all,

As to verse 2431 think of breast feeding a baby; OK in front of those persons mentioned.

{31}

Transliteration Waqul lilmu/minati yaghdudna min absarihinna wayahfathna furoojahunna wala yubdeena zeenatahunna illa ma thahara minha walyadribna bikhumurihinna AAala juyoobihinna wala yubdeena zeenatahunna illa libuAAoolatihinna aw aba-ihinna aw aba-i buAAoolatihinna aw abna-ihinna aw abna-i buAAoolatihinna aw ikhwanihinna aw banee ikhwanihinna aw banee akhawatihinna aw nisa-ihinna aw ma malakat aymanuhunna awi alttabiAAeena ghayri olee al-irbati mina alrrijali awi alttifli allatheena lam yathharoo AAala AAawrati alnnisa-i wala yadribna bi-arjulihinna liyuAAlama ma yukhfeena min zeenatihinna watooboo ila Allahi jameeAAan ayyuha almu/minoona laAAallakum tuflihoona
Literal And say to the believers they (F) lower/humble from their eye sights, and they (F) protect/safe keep from their genital parts between their legs, and they do not show their decoration/beauty except what appeared/is visible from it, and they hold in place/sew (E) with their head covers/covers on their collar opening in clothes/chests , and they do not show their decoration/beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers (fathers in-law), or their sons, or their husband's sons (step- sons), or their brothers, or their brother's sons (nephews), or their sisters' sons (nephews), or their women, or what their right (hands) owned/possessed (i.e. care-giers under contract), or the followers/servants (those) not (owners) of need/desire/intelligence and resourcefulness (without a sexual drive) from the men or the child/children (the very old or very young), those who did not see and know of on the women's shameful genital parts , and they (F) do not beat/strike with their (F) feet to be known what they (F) hide from their decoration/beauty , and repent to God all together , oh you the believers, maybe/perhaps you succeed/win.
Free-Minds And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not show-off their beauty except what is apparent, and let them cast their shawls over their cleavage. And let them not show-off their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their children that come after them, or those who are still their dependants, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed.

The ayat says that they can relax their "wala yubdeena zeenatahunna illa " (And let them not show-off their beauty except to). That does not included "wayahfathna furoojahunna " (and keep covered their private parts,). So from this understanding, I would say that even breast feeding would be forbidden to be seen because the breasts are considered "private parts" of women from what I understand. The "cleavage" on the other hand, or the "khimar" covering up the size and shape of the breasts can be relaxed in front of these men because the breasts would still be covered with clothing. I don't think IMHO that this ayat gives permission for all the named people to be okay to see a woman's breasts, although I see your point of view about breastfeeding. I think women can breast feed in public if they use the long portion of their "khimar" to cover their breasts and the childs head when doing so. Just my understanding of the issue.

Salaam IQO, Samia,

Thanks for the posts. What you said makes sense.

Thanks likewise. Alhamdulilaah.

As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace

unknownuser

Peace,

Imam Quran Only...the crucial part that of that verse for me is when it says keep covered your private parts....it is the one part of that verse that seems to be echoing my mind....like a broken record player

I just have the feeling there is definitely missing.....

There is another verse I recall if you can break that down into the arabic that would be helpful, God willing..

The verse(s) is the one(s) that talks about not revealing your private part except to your spouse or dependant...and a verse I beleive even goes into detail about when those dependants reach maturity, I beelive, then we must seek permission form them to enter there rooms....

I mean perhaps I am missing something since I am delaing with the translation only (not a native arabic speaker)

but if it clearly states to not reveal the private parts except to your spouse and/or dependants... I just dont see the logic to circumvent the clear verse by allowing another woman to see your private parts even if she is a doctor....

I mean it just "felt" wrong to do.....

I mean even when it comes to life saving and life preserving I dont know if a pap smear is life saving
I mean if it is your time to go ...what can a doctor do anyways...God is the One who cures...(not them)

I am having not only issues with this aspect of our deen (ob/gyn) but also the whole concept of medical doctors period..is this even quranic?

I mean from what I have read it appears that God is the one who cures....

it kind of seems as if seeking "help" form other than God is shirk....

perhaps I was brianwashed by the wahabis and selafis after I converted, but I would really like others' opinions and research on this issue, God willing

What is the difference in seeking a doctors help and seeking help from an imam or sunni sheikh as the whole website is against seeking help in religious matters is shirk seeking other than God...so why is it okay to seek help from men/women (doctors) when it is ultimately God who heals and cures...

(wouldnt it make sense to use the things tht God creatd in nature?)((versus seeking man made chemicals which are recalled so much))

I am really perplexed as how to define the "rightness" of seeking help from other than God

how far is that limit? is it only in religion or is it in health and finances etc ???

How far do we draw the line from seeking help from others?

Do we seek help from God and then the person just comes into your life?

Or do you actively seek a person to help you and then hope God wills what you will?

where is the line?

mw
'

ImamQuranonly

As-Salaamu Alaika Motionless Wisdom,

I really appreciate the sincerity that I feel in all of your questions and issues on this subject. I think you bring up some questions that many here have probably thought about and are still considering. I can think of a few ayaat to address some of what you said right now, but not all of them. I would like to do my best to provide what I see as answers to them from Al Quran, but it will take some more time to research and try to find out what Allah has really said on the issues in Al Quran. Like you, I am not a native arabic speaker. Although I have studied the language, and I am still studying it of course; I still have many, many years of reading translations that stick in your mind. So I really like to take my time to study it in arabic as best that I can to try to come to any conclusions or theories on what Allah is actually telling us on a particular subject.

Right now, I am fasting with a lot of other Quran aloners, but I still have many ideas and questions about what Allah has really said about the issue of fasting and "Ramadan". Therefore I am spending a lot of time re-reading all the old threads on this subject and doing my own research based on the great research contributed by many members here so far. That may keep me tied up still for the next fews day, but I am making some progress that I hope to present for discussion on the forum soon, insha Allah.

As soon as I finish what I want to post on the forum regarding "Ramadan" and fasting, which will tie into the Hajj, then I will make it a point to get back to all the questions you have brought up here and do my best to seek answers from Al Quran, Allah willing.