Are you folks in favor of modernizing the Quran?
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Arabic has a specific word for amputate and it is not cut "qaT3". The Arabic word "q T 3" literally means "to inturrupt, discontinue". Cut their hand means stop it or prevent it from what it is doing. This could be by treatment if the thief is psychologically impaired; find them a job or financial help if they are needy; imprison them if they are just criminals; keep them away from things that can be stolen if they are weak...
Yes, that is the true spirit of the Quran, with an emphasis on prevention, welfare and social justice rahter than a punishment that is clearly disproportionate for the crime.
Peace
Sister Francesca -
Arabic has a specific word for amputate and it is not cut "qaT3". The Arabic word "q T 3" literally means "to inturrupt, discontinue". Cut their hand means stop it or prevent it from what it is doing. This could be by treatment if the thief is psychologically impaired; find them a job or financial help if they are needy; imprison them if they are just criminals; keep them away from things that can be stolen if they are weak...
As for the punishment of "zena", the verb "yash-had" does not mean to see or "witness". It means "testify, endorse", i.e to authenticate. "yushaahid" is the verb for "to see". The decision of punishment should be endorsed by a group of believers and not to be left to one judge. The punishment is lashing.
If you were replying to my post, that was only a hypothetical situation.
What about lashing?
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This is really a great thread! Its great that alot of you are not in favor of modernizing the Quran if it means twisting the words. That would be exactly as the Jews have done and if we did that knowingly I do not doubt that there will be repercussions on the day of judgment.
Peace
Al -
The problem is the wording. For instance, "Muslim" generally means "Sunni" in western terms. "Reform" would bring the same connotations to them as "revisiting" to Quranists. Hence "modernizing" or "liberalising" would be the same as "finding the meaning without ahadeeth". It's a silly mess.
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Sis Samia, I've looked up in many classical arabic dictionaries and they do list 'To cut off' as a meaning. What do you base your saying on?
Nadeem
Since the qur'aan already used a derivative of the verb "batara amputate/cut off", there is no reason, or logic, in giving the same meaning to a different word.
Also, the usage of "qata3a" as "stopping/interrupting" is used in the qur'aan in verse 5633 "and abundant fruit, neither interrupted (in production; not seasonal) nor inaccessible"; 2166; 4722 (taqTa3uu ar7aamakum to disconnect from your close relatives. The opposite of this expression , Silatur ri7m connection with blood relatives, is used in the qur'aan).
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If you were replying to my post, that was only a hypothetical situation.
What about lashing?
It was a response to the messages that mentioned these two subjects which are usually what come to the mind when speaking of the "modernization" of the qur'aan, yes, including yours, but not specifically to you.
I do not agree with modernizing the qur'aan and I hate this expression.
What about lashing? Lash.
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Since the qur'aan already used a derivative of the verb "batara amputate/cut off", there is no reason, or logic, in giving the same meaning to a different word.
Also, the usage of "qata3a" as "stopping/interrupting" is used in the qur'aan in verse 5633 "and abundant fruit, neither interrupted (in production; not seasonal) nor inaccessible"; 2166; 4722 (taqTa3uu ar7aamakum to disconnect from your close relatives. The opposite of this expression , Silatur ri7m connection with blood relatives, is used in the qur'aan).
Sister Samia
Very well done!
The idea of cutting off hands is not just a problem of wrong interpretation, but also a problem of mis-translation.Peace to all,
I dont think we should modernize the Quran, we should Quranize the modern world.
Kurt
Yes, Kurt, you are right, but before we need to make sure that we fully understand what the Quran says and purge it of all mis-translations, mis-interpretations, etc.
Peace
Sister Francesca -
Peace amuslim,
I?m in favor of reading Qur?an which does not contradict thus if cross referenced usually will clarify as with the different uses of ?their hands? and take/apply best meaning?
Waalssariqu waalssariqatu faiqtaAAoo aydiyahuma jazaan bima kasaba nakalan mina Allahi waAllahu AAazeezun hakeemun
538 As to the THIEF, Male or female, cut off his or her hands a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime and Allah is Exalted in power.
Wahuwa allathee kaffa aydiyahum AAankum waaydiyakum AAanhum bibatni makkata min baAAdi an athfarakum AAalayhim wakana Allahu bima taAAmaloona baseeran
4824 And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of Makka, after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.In above verse as in 511 what was held back/restrained is ?their hands? or means to carry out. Likewise, for known thieves; i.e. repeat offenders; cut off their hands or means to do so.
Prison is certainly an option along with other methods.
Question is for professional thieves in 7th century Arabia was the ?literal? severing a way to cut off ?their means" to perpetrate crime? Probably yes.
Dear nun de plume
I think you are quoting the wrong verses.
Verse 538 is not about cutting thieves' hands, and verse 537 is about cutting alternate hands and feet (and/or banishing from the land) of those who war against God and His Apostle and go about committing disorders on Earth.
Also verse 511 says nothing of the sort.
I have the Quran right under my eyes while I am writing, and I cannot find anything talking about thieves and amputations.
Therefore, can anyone here tell me where the relevant verse is?
Peace
Sister Francesca -
peace francesca, all,
Yes, Kurt, you are right, but before we need to make sure that we fully understand what the Quran says and purge it of all mis-translations, mis-interpretations, etc.
Since this is an ongoing process you may have to wait a while...i.e. forever.
They key is to "be the change you want to see in the world" which is a quote commonly credited to Ghandi but its message was in AQ long before that "God is not to change what is in a people until they change what is within themselves."
I strongly believe in this and it is this that I personally try to follow and would recommend to others.When people realise understanding AQ is a bonus NOT a mandatory requirement to please God or enter heaven then we will see some real progress individualy and collectively.
As a sidenote on this thread... a small point
Are you folks in favor of modernizing the Quran?
I am not.
Now, can I ask you a question are you in favour of verifying the Quran?
If yes, can you please explain to us the difference between "modernizing" and "verifying", thanks.
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Dear nun de plume
I think you are quoting the wrong verses.
Verse 538 is not about cutting thieves' hands, and verse 537 is about cutting alternate hands and feet (and/or banishing from the land) of those who war against God and His Apostle and go about committing disorders on Earth.
Also verse 511 says nothing of the sort.
I have the Quran right under my eyes while I am writing, and I cannot find anything talking about thieves and amputations.
Therefore, can anyone here tell me where the relevant verse is?
Peace
Sister FrancescaOops, on my copy of the Quran the verse that you identify as 5 38 appears as verse 5 42.
My apologies for the mistake
Peace
Sister Francesca -
Peace Wakas,
I am not.
Now, can I ask you a question are you in favour of verifying the Quran?
If yes, can you please explain to us the difference between "modernizing" and "verifying", thanks.
Im in favour of verifying Quran and going to what it meant originally, before traditions and cultural views got in the way.
When I say modernizing, I mean make it (or change its meaning) to fit todays time. For example, if we go with the lashing for zina, people could modernize it and say, well we dont have to do that, even when it clearly says it in the quran to do so. Same with cutting off the hand, which people are debating as to whether it is or isnt. Most people (not saying people here but in general) would say that cutting off the hand is too barbaric, and therefore introduce a modernized version of it where we dont have to cut off the hand. Thats one example that I meant for modernizing.
I think as muslims, we should all verify the quran. Like God says
You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
Wa Salaam
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Peace Wakas,
Im in favour of verifying Quran and going to what it meant originally, before traditions and cultural views got in the way.
When I say modernizing, I mean make it (or change its meaning) to fit todays time. For example, if we go with the lashing for zina, people could modernize it and say, well we dont have to do that, even when it clearly says it in the quran to do so. Same with cutting off the hand, which people are debating as to whether it is or isnt. Most people (not saying people here but in general) would say that cutting off the hand is too barbaric, and therefore introduce a modernized version of it where we dont have to cut off the hand. Thats one example that I meant for modernizing.
I think as muslims, we should all verify the quran. Like God says
You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
Wa Salaam
Peace Amuslim
Oh, you are perfectly right when you talk about verifying, but unfortunately this is exactly what does NOT happen in the Muslim world.
An example? As I said before I grew up in Britain in a very strict and closed Pakistani Muslim community, a sort of Pakistani Muslim ghetto.
In the afternoon I usually attended the afterschool classes at the local madrasa attached to the local mosque, and most of the madrasa syllabus consisted of reading the Quran ... in Arabic.
But no, we only learned how to pronounce the words, we never learned the meaning of what we were reading.
Hope this example helps to illustrate the reason why there is so much religious illiteracy in the Muslim world.
Peace
Sister Francesca -
Im in favor of literal interpretation of Al Quran and presenting the book as it is and let the readers decide. As a non-Arabic speaker I find it extremely irritating when Quran translators put their own personal understanding instead of what is actually written in Al Quran thus concealing the truth intentionally or unintentionally.
How true. Just leave it as it is and let the reader interpret it. Well said. peace
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Peace Sisterfrancesca,
Peace Amuslim
Oh, you are perfectly right when you talk about verifying, but unfortunately this is exactly what does NOT happen in the Muslim world.
An example? As I said before I grew up in Britain in a very strict and closed Pakistani Muslim community, a sort of Pakistani Muslim ghetto.
In the afternoon I usually attended the afterschool classes at the local madrasa attached to the local mosque, and most of the madrasa syllabus consisted of reading the Quran ... in Arabic.
But no, we only learned how to pronounce the words, we never learned the meaning of what we were reading.
Hope this example helps to illustrate the reason why there is so much religious illiteracy in the Muslim world.
Peace
Sister FrancescaMy friends from Pakistan told me the same thing. Matter of fact, when I used to ask about Islam, most of them didnt know how to answer me. Also, most of the Quran that they know is only in Arabic, so when I try to discuss ayat to them, they get confused.
I still think that being able to pronounce it is still better than nothing at all. Matter of fact, thats a step above us who cant read Quran at all. I do hope that these madrasas change their style, its very pointless to recite something that you dont know what you are saying. Same with Salat. I had to tell my friend what he was saying because he had no clue.
Peace
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Since the qur'aan already used a derivative of the verb "batara amputate/cut off", there is no reason, or logic, in giving the same meaning to a different word.
Also, the usage of "qata3a" as "stopping/interrupting" is used in the qur'aan in verse 5633 "and abundant fruit, neither interrupted (in production; not seasonal) nor inaccessible"; 2166; 4722 (taqTa3uu ar7aamakum to disconnect from your close relatives. The opposite of this expression , Silatur ri7m connection with blood relatives, is used in the qur'aan).
You're the greatest sis!
Nadeem
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Peace Sisterfrancesca,
My friends from Pakistan told me the same thing. Matter of fact, when I used to ask about Islam, most of them didnt know how to answer me. Also, most of the Quran that they know is only in Arabic, so when I try to discuss ayat to them, they get confused.
I still think that being able to pronounce it is still better than nothing at all. Matter of fact, thats a step above us who cant read Quran at all. I do hope that these madrasas change their style, its very pointless to recite something that you dont know what you are saying. Same with Salat. I had to tell my friend what he was saying because he had no clue.
Peace
Peace Amuslim
Well, I believe that there is a vested interest for the madrasas to go on like this.
All what these mullahs want is to keep the populace under control.
Same story as the Roman Catholic Church in the Middle Ages, when the Mass was celebrated in Latin, a language that was already dead and totally unintelligible by the general populace.
You Quran-alone brothers and sisters might be unaware, but we already quite a few fatwas against us from both Sunnis and Shias.
Only when the Quran is widely understood in the correct manner can barriers and ghettoes be torn down.Peace
Sister Francesca -
Peace to all,
I agree with the others that we need to figure out the closest exact meaning we can to the Quran, once this is done, then it should be upto each individual to let its message speak to them in their own way.
As for traditionalists issuing fatwahs against Quran aloners i say let them, it gives us more publicity and people who hear these fatwahs will start questioning them and looking into true Islam, once they see the blatant silliness and contradictions contained in hadeeth and sunnah then God willing, they will find and follow the straight path to God alone.
Maybe one of our learned brothers or sisters here on this forum should issue our own fatwah against the traditionalists, this may get them angry and talking but at least others will here about the truth.
Im thinking Samia, Arnold Yasin, and many others here are highly qualified.
Kurt
