Are you folks in favor of modernizing the Quran?

[Wakas]

peace francesca, all,

Yes, Kurt, you are right, but before we need to make sure that we fully understand what the Quran says and purge it of all mis-translations, mis-interpretations, etc.

Since this is an ongoing process you may have to wait a while...i.e. forever.

They key is to "be the change you want to see in the world" which is a quote commonly credited to Ghandi but its message was in AQ long before that "God is not to change what is in a people until they change what is within themselves."
I strongly believe in this and it is this that I personally try to follow and would recommend to others.

When people realise understanding AQ is a bonus NOT a mandatory requirement to please God or enter heaven then we will see some real progress individualy and collectively.

As a sidenote on this thread... a small point

Are you folks in favor of modernizing the Quran?

I am not.

Now, can I ask you a question are you in favour of verifying the Quran?

If yes, can you please explain to us the difference between "modernizing" and "verifying", thanks.

[sisterfrancesca]

Dear nun de plume

I think you are quoting the wrong verses.
Verse 538 is not about cutting thieves' hands, and verse 537 is about cutting alternate hands and feet (and/or banishing from the land) of those who war against God and His Apostle and go about committing disorders on Earth.
Also verse 511 says nothing of the sort.
I have the Quran right under my eyes while I am writing, and I cannot find anything talking about thieves and amputations.
Therefore, can anyone here tell me where the relevant verse is?
Peace
Sister Francesca

Oops, on my copy of the Quran the verse that you identify as 5 38 appears as verse 5 42.
My apologies for the mistake
Peace
Sister Francesca

[amuslim]

Peace Wakas,

I am not.

Now, can I ask you a question are you in favour of verifying the Quran?

If yes, can you please explain to us the difference between "modernizing" and "verifying", thanks.

Im in favour of verifying Quran and going to what it meant originally, before traditions and cultural views got in the way.

When I say modernizing, I mean make it (or change its meaning) to fit todays time. For example, if we go with the lashing for zina, people could modernize it and say, well we dont have to do that, even when it clearly says it in the quran to do so. Same with cutting off the hand, which people are debating as to whether it is or isnt. Most people (not saying people here but in general) would say that cutting off the hand is too barbaric, and therefore introduce a modernized version of it where we dont have to cut off the hand. Thats one example that I meant for modernizing.

I think as muslims, we should all verify the quran. Like God says

You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.

Wa Salaam

[sisterfrancesca]

Peace Wakas,

Im in favour of verifying Quran and going to what it meant originally, before traditions and cultural views got in the way.

When I say modernizing, I mean make it (or change its meaning) to fit todays time. For example, if we go with the lashing for zina, people could modernize it and say, well we dont have to do that, even when it clearly says it in the quran to do so. Same with cutting off the hand, which people are debating as to whether it is or isnt. Most people (not saying people here but in general) would say that cutting off the hand is too barbaric, and therefore introduce a modernized version of it where we dont have to cut off the hand. Thats one example that I meant for modernizing.

I think as muslims, we should all verify the quran. Like God says

You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.

Wa Salaam

Peace Amuslim

Oh, you are perfectly right when you talk about verifying, but unfortunately this is exactly what does NOT happen in the Muslim world.
An example? As I said before I grew up in Britain in a very strict and closed Pakistani Muslim community, a sort of Pakistani Muslim ghetto.
In the afternoon I usually attended the afterschool classes at the local madrasa attached to the local mosque, and most of the madrasa syllabus consisted of reading the Quran ... in Arabic.
But no, we only learned how to pronounce the words, we never learned the meaning of what we were reading.
Hope this example helps to illustrate the reason why there is so much religious illiteracy in the Muslim world.
Peace
Sister Francesca

[Bigmo]

Im in favor of literal interpretation of Al Quran and presenting the book as it is and let the readers decide. As a non-Arabic speaker I find it extremely irritating when Quran translators put their own personal understanding instead of what is actually written in Al Quran thus concealing the truth intentionally or unintentionally.

How true. Just leave it as it is and let the reader interpret it. Well said. peace

[amuslim]

Peace Sisterfrancesca,

Peace Amuslim

Oh, you are perfectly right when you talk about verifying, but unfortunately this is exactly what does NOT happen in the Muslim world.
An example? As I said before I grew up in Britain in a very strict and closed Pakistani Muslim community, a sort of Pakistani Muslim ghetto.
In the afternoon I usually attended the afterschool classes at the local madrasa attached to the local mosque, and most of the madrasa syllabus consisted of reading the Quran ... in Arabic.
But no, we only learned how to pronounce the words, we never learned the meaning of what we were reading.
Hope this example helps to illustrate the reason why there is so much religious illiteracy in the Muslim world.
Peace
Sister Francesca

My friends from Pakistan told me the same thing. Matter of fact, when I used to ask about Islam, most of them didnt know how to answer me. Also, most of the Quran that they know is only in Arabic, so when I try to discuss ayat to them, they get confused.

I still think that being able to pronounce it is still better than nothing at all. Matter of fact, thats a step above us who cant read Quran at all. I do hope that these madrasas change their style, its very pointless to recite something that you dont know what you are saying. Same with Salat. I had to tell my friend what he was saying because he had no clue.

Peace

[nadeem]

Since the qur'aan already used a derivative of the verb "batara amputate/cut off", there is no reason, or logic, in giving the same meaning to a different word.

Also, the usage of "qata3a" as "stopping/interrupting" is used in the qur'aan in verse 5633 "and abundant fruit, neither interrupted (in production; not seasonal) nor inaccessible"; 2166; 4722 (taqTa3uu ar7aamakum to disconnect from your close relatives. The opposite of this expression , Silatur ri7m connection with blood relatives, is used in the qur'aan).

You're the greatest sis!

Nadeem

[sisterfrancesca]

Peace Sisterfrancesca,

My friends from Pakistan told me the same thing. Matter of fact, when I used to ask about Islam, most of them didnt know how to answer me. Also, most of the Quran that they know is only in Arabic, so when I try to discuss ayat to them, they get confused.

I still think that being able to pronounce it is still better than nothing at all. Matter of fact, thats a step above us who cant read Quran at all. I do hope that these madrasas change their style, its very pointless to recite something that you dont know what you are saying. Same with Salat. I had to tell my friend what he was saying because he had no clue.

Peace

Peace Amuslim
Well, I believe that there is a vested interest for the madrasas to go on like this.
All what these mullahs want is to keep the populace under control.
Same story as the Roman Catholic Church in the Middle Ages, when the Mass was celebrated in Latin, a language that was already dead and totally unintelligible by the general populace.
You Quran-alone brothers and sisters might be unaware, but we already quite a few fatwas against us from both Sunnis and Shias.
Only when the Quran is widely understood in the correct manner can barriers and ghettoes be torn down.

Peace
Sister Francesca

[IronSky]

Peace to all,

I agree with the others that we need to figure out the closest exact meaning we can to the Quran, once this is done, then it should be upto each individual to let its message speak to them in their own way.

As for traditionalists issuing fatwahs against Quran aloners i say let them, it gives us more publicity and people who hear these fatwahs will start questioning them and looking into true Islam, once they see the blatant silliness and contradictions contained in hadeeth and sunnah then God willing, they will find and follow the straight path to God alone.

Maybe one of our learned brothers or sisters here on this forum should issue our own fatwah against the traditionalists, this may get them angry and talking but at least others will here about the truth.

Im thinking Samia, Arnold Yasin, and many others here are highly qualified.

Kurt

[SwedenMajidah]

Maybe one of our learned brothers or sisters here on this forum should issue our own fatwah against the traditionalists, this may get them angry and talking but at least others will here about the truth.

No No No, why start a new war?

Majidah

[afridi220]

Peace Amuslim

.
In the afternoon I usually attended the afterschool classes at the local madrasa attached to the local mosque, and most of the madrasa syllabus consisted of reading the Quran ... in Arabic.
But no, we only learned how to pronounce the words, we never learned the meaning of what we were reading.
Hope this example helps to illustrate the reason why there is so much religious illiteracy in the Muslim world.
Peace
Sister Francesca

salaa all

In pakistan you ask any religious teacher you want to learn Quran with meaning they will tell you no no it is not for you leave it to us you just learn how to read Quran.

peace

[sisterfrancesca]

salaa all

In pakistan you ask any religious teacher you want to learn Quran with meaning they will tell you no no it is not for you leave it to us you just learn how to read Quran.

peace

Ha hah! Bingo!
During the Dark Ages the Roman Catholic authorities made it an offense for ordinary people (who could read, not many of them!) to own and study a Bible.
Now in Pakistan the clerics only allow you to read the Quran without understanding it.
The difference seems to be one of semantics only!
The clerics' vested interests (of keeping the ordinary people under a cloak of ignorance) is getting clearer and clearer.

As to issuing counter-fatwas, I don't think we are strong enough, since the main author of these fatwas, a certain Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid apparently lives in Saudi Arabia and is very likely to be financially supported by billions of petrodollars.

Like Brother Kurt said, let them issue more fatwas, and then let people with brain judge the sheer stupidity of these fatwas, just have a look at the links below (for Goodness sake, logic does not seem to be in abundant supply in Saudi Arabia)

http//islamqa.com/index.php?ref=3440&ln=eng

http//islamqa.com/index.php?ref=604&ln=eng

Peace

Sister Francesca

[afridi220]

Salaam sister frances

Prophet was also a Quran alone he was following Quran and not hadith and sunna of others we are also following Quran in this way we are following the messanger and the other groups are following shaitan only, let me tell you some thing since many many years i used to call clergy men the follower of shaitan and my friends use to tell me some body will kill you be careful and the ppls use to call me kafir that time i use to think that I'm the only one who dislike them only recently i came to know that I'm not alone when i visited this site.

My personnel prophecy is that bearded religious men will be the first among Muslims who will be thrown in jahanum followed by Arabs,

some of my Arab friends tells me one day you will be in jail if you do not stop,

But actually i consider ordinary sunni innocent they are duped bye clergy men in believing all this nonsense

and today they trust and respect them more then God.

My heart goes for my parents,

Peace

[sisterfrancesca]

Salaam sister frances

Prophet was also a Quran alone he was following Quran and not hadith and sunna of others we are also following Quran in this way we are following the messanger and the other groups are following shaitan only

Salaam Afridi220

Actually the final Surah of the Quran was revealed to Prophet Mohammed just one month before he died.
If you think that Mohammed for most of his life was a nonMuslim and received his first revelation when he was 40 years old, you can easily understand how receiving the Quran over a period of 20 and more years was like a process of growth for him, through which he went like the rest of us.

And on a slightly different point, I recall that years ago a scholar in Pakistan was sentenced to death by a Taleban-style tribal court for .... saying exactly what I have just said, and this goes on to show the hysteria that reigns in certain countries when you try to put forward a rational argument and to prove once more the vested interest that most clerics have in obstructing an open and frank debate.

Peace

Sister Francesca

PS I would refrain from referring to Mohammed as "The Prophet" this is a bad Sunni and Shia habit, and we all know that Islam has many prophet, none of whom were any lesser than Mohammed.

[afridi220]

Salaam Afridi220

Actually the final Surah of the Quran was revealed to Prophet Mohammed just one month before he died.
If you think that Mohammed for most of his life was a nonMuslim and received his first revelation when he was 40 years old, you can easily understand how receiving the Quran over a period of 20 and more years was like a process of growth for him, through which he went like the rest of us.

And on a slightly different point, I recall that years ago a scholar in Pakistan was sentenced to death by a Taleban-style tribal court for .... saying exactly what I have just said, and this goes on to show the hysteria that reigns in certain countries when you try to put forward a rational argument and to prove once more the vested interest that most clerics have in obstructing an open and frank debate.

Peace

Sister Francesca

PS I would refrain from referring to Mohammed as "The Prophet" this is a bad Sunni and Shia habit, and we all know that Islam has many prophet, none of whom were any lesser than Mohammed.

salaam

i dont think any prophet as non muslim befor reavalation they were borne for the very purpose and were protected and guided by allah from the date of birth till death.

Peace

[sisterfrancesca]

salaam

i dont think any prophet as non muslim befor reavalation they were borne for the very purpose and were protected and guided by allah from the date of birth till death.

Peace

Salaam Afridi and all

Uh, that might be, but my meaning was that

• Sunnis and Shias refer to Ibrahim as Prophet Ibrahim, Jesus as Prophet Issa, Adam as Prophet Adam, etc, but to Mohammed as The Prophet, which involves that somehow Mohammed was higher in the hierarchy than other prophets, but nowhere in the Quran it is written that this is the case; Mohammed was just the last one in the chronological sequence.
  The fact that they call him ""The Prophet" is just another example of
  Mohammed-worshipping that you find among Sunnas and Shias.
• Allah might have decided from the outset that Mohammed destiny was to be a prophet, but Mohammed himself had not the slightest idea what islam was about until he was 40, and let's not forget that when the Angel (Jibril) first appeared to him he was deeply shocked and not very receptive it was his wife's cousin, a Christian, who persuaded him to accept what the Angel has to say to him.

We are lucky that in this forum we can openly debate those issues, but let's not forget that in some countries you get the death penalty for insulting Prophet Mohammed for saying something like this, and this is not right!

Peace
Sister Francesca

[Bigmo]

Peace Wakas,

Im in favour of verifying Quran and going to what it meant originally, before traditions and cultural views got in the way.

When I say modernizing, I mean make it (or change its meaning) to fit todays time. For example, if we go with the lashing for zina, people could modernize it and say, well we dont have to do that, even when it clearly says it in the quran to do so. Same with cutting off the hand, which people are debating as to whether it is or isnt. Most people (not saying people here but in general) would say that cutting off the hand is too barbaric, and therefore introduce a modernized version of it where we dont have to cut off the hand. Thats one example that I meant for modernizing.

I think as muslims, we should all verify the quran. Like God says

You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.

Wa Salaam

The reason you want to modernize the Quran is you are not able to accept the historicity of the Quran and that the state legislations in the Quran are 7th century civil laws and not religious legislations like prayers and haj and halal meat and so on.

These civil laws were considered progressive and modern in the 7th century which is why nobody, not even the pagans, objected to it. The pagans objected to aqeedah and ritual issues and not the state legal system since it was appropriate to theirs and progressive according to their time period.

There is no need to alter the Quranic translation since many of the state legislations are not religious but civil. They were to be applied to Muslims and non Muslims alike. The mission of the prophet was not to govern and rule but circumstances led him to that and God guided him to establish a civil society that will ensure stability and justice based on 7th century standard. there is no mention of the Quran of any legislation not relevant to the prophet's Madina. If it was the intention of God to establisha state legal system along with religious legislation God would have certainly layed a framework that deals with legal issues outside the prophets' Madina community's legislative needs but were needed by later generations of Muslims. But He did not since it was not the mission of the Quran to do so.

Circumstances led to the prophet establishing a community and this led to God guiding His prophet towards establishing a legal state structure as part of His guidance and support for His prophet.

Which is why we see their are gender differences in the state legislations in the Quran but no such differences in the religious legislations. Men and women fast, pray, perform haj , observe the halals and harams, zakat , die and resurrect and get judged exactly the same.

As I said the state legislation in the Quran does seperate in some situations between gender and also between slaves and free men as this was the social and political milieu of the 7th century. God however does not discriminate between a man and woman or between a slave and a free man when it comes to religious legislations as God is not a socially and culturally evolving entity as humans are. It was God's wisdom to establish a community with the legal and political norms of their time or else it would not have been seen by its intended targets as fair and justice and applicable.

We must seperate between religious and state legislations and also identify what are the situations that was relevant to the 7th century Madina community and what are the issues relevant to us today. Thats the way forward, indeed thats the ONLY way forward. The Islamist era is over. It never was and never will. Ever since the 3 caliph Uthman was killed, nobody has revived tht state that was led by the prophet ever again although the Abbasid called for it and refered to it as the "Islamic" state. They failed however because the social, political and cultural changes made many of the Quranic state legislation difficult to apply during the 3 century AD. However they tried to collect as many details and information from the 7th century Madina community of the prophet and the 4 caliphs to aid them in their effort but still failed.

Any state legfislation must take into account the political, economical and social realities of the intended target or else it would end upapplicable , irrelevant and unacceptable.

[Tony]

How the heck could you possibly lash someone 100X symbolically?!?

and without mercy? rotfl

[progod]

Peace,

In my opinion, the Quran doesn't need to be modernized (i.e. brought up to our times) as it is for all times.

The commands in the Quran are only for those who have faith in God and the Quran.

1. These commands are voluntary and are fulfilled by the faithful.

2. Punishments are compensations to God. They cannot be enforced on anyone, that person has to openly accept following the Quran, and accept his punishment/compensation.

3.Laws that have to do with people who don't follow the Quran and commit crimes against people who follow the Quran are outlined in all of the rules that we have for war with those who fight against us.

4. Quranic laws should not be imposed on anyone, not even on a universal level. It is up to any community to follow a Quranic law if they see it as best for their society. Quranic laws are were not put in place to forcefully protect the people they were put in place for any group of believers who wanted to form their own community (and they are encouraged to do this in the Quran) on how to govern that community.

5. As these ways are voluntary the Quran even outlines how to deal with hypocrites (who want to be apart of the community but not follow its laws).

6. When the law of the Quran is put into true affect it will not be some Quranic state or Islamic state. It will be through a group of God's loyalists who study the Quran, teach the Quran and follow the Quran.

When that starts to form I will be here ready to participate and help.

Godbless,
Anwar