The "Lal Masjid" Mischief Makers.
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peace all,
The problem is clearly in that article. The government never listened to the people. In areas of hard core Islamists you have to let the majority in that local rule and try to ensure the minority rights. It seems that the gov didn't listen to the people when it was civilian and even less now that it is a military government. But the problems comes down to the fact that these governements won't listen to the people.
Godbless,
AnwarPeace Anwar, I agree with you in general, however the ground reality is different here. In two provinces of Pakistan i.e. North West frontier province and Baluchistan, the ?MMA? is in power since 2002, and yet these two provinces bordering Afghanistan are the most disturbed provinces. The issue here is not that the majority rule was ignored; the root cause of the problem is that these fanatics believe, it?s their divine duty to imposing their ideology forcefully on the entire human population of earth. They are not only fighting the government, but also amongst themselves to promote their own brands of shariat in areas like Hangu, Kohat, Bannu, para chinar, DI Khan, and Tank.
it?s them who don?t listen to their government and lay down their arms; these extremists are numbered in thousands, a tiny minority with weapons, who are willing to kill or die for their ideology. Pakistan has a population of 160 million, 97% of them are Muslims, they are sentimental/emotional regarding their religion, but a vast majority is moderate and wants to live in peace.
http//www.nation.com.pk/daily/july-2007/14/index13.php
Thank you for your response. Hope this will help
Economic 1. pertaining to the production, distribution, and use of income, wealth, and commodities.
Pressure 6. harassment; oppression the pressures of daily life.peace Mehdi, Thank you for explaining, I don?t support any form of harassment or oppression. Neither do I support any economic pressure based on malicious intentions.
peace
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Peace,
It's always a pleasure reading Agentx's posts. Very informative .
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Peace,
As long as the government is clear 'laa ikraha fedeeni' no coercion or forcing as it concerns religion then they should battle them with this clear goal. However, I think as it was pointed out before these people get popular support because the governments ignore the people when they are peaceful and call for a change to the corruption. The government ignores them and then these radical, unquranic Islamists come & champion their cause, but the people pay a high price. I feel that if the government attends to these people, financially and runs compaigns against coercion of religion (using the Quran to support them) then they might have a chance. This is real police work. However the government provided the breeding ground by ignoring the people and allowing corruption to run rampant. Remember this is the main cry of Islamists, they try to offer an end and an alternative to corruption. But again the people pay a high price by allowing this option. Their rancour and bitterness for the government because of its corruption brings way to something much worse.
Godbless,
Anwar -
peace Anwar,
I agree with your analysis, the problem is, in Pakistan we don't have much of a choice, the difference between the present leadership/political and religious parties and the government, is not like the difference between "Musa and Firon", but like Firon, Abu lahab, Abu Sufian and Yazid. Unfortunately we have to choice and support by assessing, who amongst them is the lesses evil. This is the only reason why I support Musharraf or the government when it comes to choosing between these fanatic and the government.
peace
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Musharraf?s government is the coalition partner of these fanatics in Balochistan province.
Under Musharraf, with the military?s support, for the very first time in Pakistan?s history Islamist parties, members of the six party MMA alliance captured two of the four provincial (state) governments in Pakistan in the rigged 2002 national polls. The MMA now rules these strategically located provinces bordering on Afghanistan-- the Northwest Frontier Province and Balochistan, where it is a coalition partner with Musharraf?s PML-Q.
It was not possible for Musharraf to get the vote of confidence in parliment without the support of these fanatics so the Islamist parties repaid Musharraf for his support by helping him gain a vote of confidence in parliament, which extended his presidency until 2007.
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Salam agentxxx,
please excuse my very late response on this.. but i wanted to make sure everyone who wanted to post on this thread does so... since my conversation seems to be a bit off topic.. that's why I waited until it reached the second page of the forum.. thinking maybe folks have lost interest in the thread itself.. therefore maybe we can continue our conversation..
I don?t support any form of harassment or oppression. Neither do I support any economic pressure based on malicious intentions.
How about boycotts? Boycotting is a way of using force.. economic pressure to get a desired effect.. it is a form of harassment.. and opperssion.. by definition it is "to combine in abstaining from, or preventing dealings with, as a means of intimidation or coercion"
I having a hard time understanding where you stand.. you say
I am a peace loving person who believes that no belief /religion/ideology is more important then a human?s life, no one has the right to dominate and dictate others, because of caste, color or creed.
Forcefully implementing your beliefs on others is unacceptable, it is a sin as far as I am concerned.
boycotting is a use of force.. economic force.. therefore.. it can be seen as "malicious intentions" by the recieving party.. as an example.. following your string of absolute logic... are you saying that it is a sin to boycott zionist products?
A problem or a contradiction appears from what I'm reading of your posts. It appears that you are very absolute in your resolve.. saying things like, "I don?t support any form of harassment or oppression." & "Forcefully implementing your beliefs on others is unacceptable, it is a sin as far as I am concerned."
But again.. something like economic pressure is a use of force.. some use it for one side.. others use to for the other... each recieving side thinking it is a force that contains "malicious intentions"... after all, who wants to be boycotted.. basicly.. it all depends on which side of the fence you are sitting on... so when you say "any form of harassment"... what are you really saying?
Do you vote? Voting is a use of force.. it is the use of "forcefully implementing your beliefs "... the mind is powerful.. thoughts are powerful.. your will can be powerful.. and forceful.. etc. etc. etc..
kinda reminds me of Quran Surah 2
8. Of the people there are some who say "We believe in Allah and the Last Day;" but they do not (really) believe.-
Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise (it) not!
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In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).
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When it is said to them "Make not mischief on the earth," they say "Why, we only Want to make peace!"
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Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.
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When it is said to them "Believe as the others believe" They say "Shall we believe as the fools believe?" Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.
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When they meet those who believe, they say "We believe;" but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say "We are really with you We (were) only jesting."
please clarify your points... thank you!
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Actually it is more of regional problem then religon, as we know both of the Ghazi brothers were BAlouch and 80% to 90% of the permanent students were of NWFP and Baluchistan. That is almost true with all the Madrassas from Karachi to Peshawar.
Most of the Hard liners Mullah's are from NWFP (Pashtuns) also includes Afghani Pashtuns) or Balauchistan, the reason of these people to be more hard liner and stubborn then there counter provinces PUNJAB and Sindh is Barren land, low economic development, Tribal way of living, and their social customes that date back centuries.I also donot agree with you that all Madrassa's are not providing quality education that is lack of information.
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Salam agentxxx,
boycotting is a use of force.. economic force.. therefore.. it can be seen as "malicious intentions" by the recieving party.. as an example.. following your string of absolute logic... are you saying that it is a sin to boycott zionist products?Peace Mehdi, No, not at all?.I used the word force in reference to the attitude of those people who physically attack/threat others and force them to follow what they preach and practice.?..boycotting Zionist products or any other product, out of convicting or XYZ reasons, is the constitutional right of the individuals and they are free to practice it, but they don?t have the right to pick up a gun and start threatening other to follow them in boycotting the products or else they will hurt or kill them?.this kind of force is what I don?t support and I believe its a sin.
A problem or a contradiction appears from what I'm reading of your posts. It appears that you are very absolute in your resolve.. saying things like, "I don?t support any form of harassment or oppression." & "Forcefully implementing your beliefs on others is unacceptable, it is a sin as far as I am concerned."
But again.. something like economic pressure is a use of force.. some use it for one side.. others use to for the other... each recieving side thinking it is a force that contains "malicious intentions"... after all, who wants to be boycotted.. basicly.. it all depends on which side of the fence you are sitting on... so when you say "any form of harassment"... what are you really saying?
Do you vote? Voting is a use of force.. it is the use of "forcefully implementing your beliefs "... the mind is powerful.. thoughts are powerful.. your will can be powerful.. and forceful.. etc. etc. etc..
There may be some contradictions in my posts or they may be totally absurd? I am just an average human being and have never claimed my logic to be absolute; I have often seen my logic blown away to dust with the passage of time ;D.
The word force can be understood in so many different ways....I have specifically used it for those who use violence as a toll to impose their own ideology on others, such use of force is a sin according to my understanding....regarding the use of force through economic pressure? as long as no violence is used....I may still oppose it/disagree with it, but will not call it a sin. Moreover the judgment will also depend upon the circumstance and the ground reality under which economic pressure is applied.
Of course I vote , the use of vote is again the constitutional right given to the citizens by the state??..this is the legal use of force/power by exercising your right, but again if someone uses threats and violence to force others to vote against their will, that is wrong.
I hope I have made myself clear sorry for the late reply.
peace
P.Sbrother Mehdi the verses you have posted are the same that I have used to start this thread
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Salam Agentxxx,
You don't know how refreshing it is to read your reply!
Thank you very much for clearning that up for me. I understand now your use of the word force was specific only to the topic and not merely in a general sense and I agree with you!
Thank you again for your response. If I'm not clear on something or someone's point of view I'll ask question to try and come to an understanding instead of just thinking my own reasons etc... and I very much appreciate that you did not pretend that I am attacking you but rather by your reply it shows that you easily understood why I asked. I wish more people would take your example. It truely is refreshing! If you are just an average human being.. then I pray more human's could simply just be average!your humility is humbling... with respect, may peace be upon you.