a challenge to quran aloners!!!
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Peace to all,
Katara,
I wonder how does the free will fit in the whole system of predetermination???
I would say everything is being observed... that would make sense.
Anyway, could you please elaborate a little on that?Peace
FJFree will is not absolute in the Quran. Allah guides and misguides whom Allah wills.
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OPF, that makes no sense. If Allah guides whomever Allah wills, then what's the point of seeking guidance, or even trying to learn the truth???
That needs to be re-interpreted, including the meaning of god.
God guides the ones who want guidance, who ask for it, who search for it. So god doesn't really choose who to guide, we do. We decide whether we are guided or not. -
Peace to all,
Im pretty sure theres a verse in the Quran that says, God guides those who turn to him, and chooses whom he wills, hence, OPF is probably right. Lobster, couldnt God choose whoever he wanted, even if the person doesnt want to believe God could make him couldnt he, isnt this within the power of God, however, I do believe that we do have absolute free will and it is subject only to the whims of God.
Kurt
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OPF, that makes no sense. If Allah guides whomever Allah wills, then what's the point of seeking guidance, or even trying to learn the truth???
That needs to be re-interpreted, including the meaning of god.
God guides the ones who want guidance, who ask for it, who search for it. So god doesn't really choose who to guide, we do. We decide whether we are guided or not.It makes very much sense. You percieve God as an active anthropomorphic deity, which is why you WILL run into these problems. I suggest re-evaluating that. If we see God as passive, and autonomous as the world and nature, and the universe is, we can get to the core.
For instance, God guides whom God wills, and God misguides whom God wills. However, God does not guide people unless they change what is within their hearts. Hence the need to seek guidance and follow the truth amongst other things. It's hard to put this in text. I think you said it quite well but rephrased.
""God is fair" and "god does whatever god wants" don't go together."
God does whatever God wants. God is fair. Hence, God only wants what is fair.
Simple?
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salam abu,
if a hadith does not contradict the quran, then there are two possibilities of that hadith
- true
2)false
and if it contradicts the quran, then of course it is>
1)falseso, yeah, i agree with you, we can't just discredit the whole books of hadiths.. not until we have evidence that all that it contains are false. I don't know what are you talking about Isnad, though. p
salam all,
I have only caught a glimpse of what peace4life said.. i'm still am learning... what if, the only free will we have is in term of faith -- believe vs disbelieve; closer to God vs straying further away... ? As i am typing this, yes, it is in my consent, through my body and mind.. but what if, it is God who, by many ways, inspired me to do what i am doing?It says many times, God is in control of Everything. But did it says, God controls everything? there's a difference. i am still learning.
peace!
- true
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Peace to all,
Lobster, what im saying is that , generally you are right, however God does guide whom he chooses whether they want it or not doesnt he,, did Prophet Mohammad ask God to make him a prophet and messenger of God, no, actually from what we read in history he was actually kind of scared and refused it when he was told he was chosen to be Gods messenger, he then spoke with his wife i think who encouraged him to not be scared and not to refuse. Also, what about Jesus , he was sent even as a child before he was born he was chosen, Jesus had no choice in this did he, he was chosen to be a Prophet and messenger before he even existed and then he always said he only does Gods will, never did he do according to his free will, only Gods.
Kurt
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Peace katara,
if a hadith does not contradict the quran, then there are two possibilities of that hadith
1)true
2)falseand if it contradicts the quran, then of course it is>
1)false
That being the case, what's the purpose of the hadith then? ???-
These are God's revelations that We recite to you with truth. So, in which hadith after God and His revelations do they believe?
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God has sent down the best narration, a Scripture that is similar with two paths. The skins of those who reverence their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of God. Such is God's guidance; He guides with it whoever He wills. And for whomever God misguides, then none can guide him.
Reminds me of the children of Israel, who were given the best food from God, yet they kept insisting on lentils and onions.
peace
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i'm NOT saying the hadiths are above the quran.
i'm just stating that, like any other books (except the quran--it is the Criterion, divine), or like any other stories, hadiths' validation depend on the quran.For guidance, deen, we relie solely on the Quran. Nonetheless, we are commanded to read! increase knowledge, listen and take what is best. Using the quran to judge other information.
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For guidance, deen, we relie solely on the Quran. Nonetheless, we are commanded to read! increase knowledge, listen and take what is best. Using the quran to judge other information.
Thats true but for teachings about God, the words have to come from an authoritative source.
Peace
Al -
i'm NOT saying the hadiths are above the quran.
i'm just stating that, like any other books (except the quran--it is the Criterion, divine), or like any other stories, hadiths' validation depend on the quran.I understand what you're saying. My problem is that unlike "any other books", hadith is being held with higher regard, as being some sort of indirect revelation from God.
Peace
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Peace to all,
Lobster, what im saying is that , generally you are right, however God does guide whom he chooses whether they want it or not doesnt he,, did Prophet Mohammad ask God to make him a prophet and messenger of God, no, actually from what we read in history he was actually kind of scared and refused it when he was told he was chosen to be Gods messenger, he then spoke with his wife i think who encouraged him to not be scared and not to refuse. Also, what about Jesus , he was sent even as a child before he was born he was chosen, Jesus had no choice in this did he, he was chosen to be a Prophet and messenger before he even existed and then he always said he only does Gods will, never did he do according to his free will, only Gods.
Kurt
peace Kurt,
I disagree with you here. I don't think god just picks random people to guide or misguide or ignore. The prophets became prophets not because god picked them, but they reached that stage of messengership by following the straight path and making spiritual progress.
God doesn't guide. We choose to be guided by him. -
Peace,
Soo the Quran is wrong about Jesus then Lobster, doesnt it say that he was chosen before his birth to be born of Mary, and that he was taught things even while in the cradle, and strengthened from birth with the holy spirit, so how did Jesus choose this path on his own before his birth, how did he choose his mother,
Kurt
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Many want to make this a right and wrong issue. It is far from that, it is a matter of belief issue.... How do we know about the Qur'an except through the Prophet Muhammad (S). And if one full of ignorance dares to say, that it is the hadith that we reject not the Prophet Muhammad (S), ....If we want to reject the Hadith of Sahih Bukhari and Muslims and on, even though they provide us with an unbroken chain of transmitters back to the Messenger of ALLAH (S), then who will we find when we start looking at the chain of transmitters of the Qur'an. Think deeply people and don't be fooled!!!
Greetings Abu Zahrah,
Welcome to free-minds, and as such you're a bit of a 'newbie' here as to how we look at certain concepts so it's at this juncture that I'd like to present to you a concept called 'biognosis', meaning 'knowledge from life'. It's the ability in each and every one of us to see and understand the world around us through the perception of our hearts. In this way, this mode of cognition is a 'way of being' and the world of creation that is around us, never lies nor is ever faulty in what it presents to our perceiving hearts.
2116 Nay, but His is all that is in the heavens and on earth; all things devoutly obey His will....
2118 And those who are devoid of knowldedge say, "Why does God not speak unto us, nor is a sign shown to us?" Even thus, like unto what they say, spoke those who lived before their time their hearts are all alike. Indeed, We have made all the signs manifest unto people who are endowed with inner certainty.The point I'm getting at is that Allah, via the Qur'an, teaches us how to perceive living knowledge gained from all of creation via our organ of perception --- the heart. While an exaltation of historical religious 'authorities' begets an ossification of knowledge -- a knowledge only of what is dead and gone. Such people who choose to follow these 'authorities' in their day to day living, are actually striving to follow dead knowledge. Eventually they come to show that such a practice hardens their hearts and that they are likely to fall prey to intolerance and bigotry through this line of thinking.
Ossified knowledge is a dead-weight to the world, and it does not matter in what realm of man's intellectual activities it is found....any obstinate clinging to outworn doctrines, whether or religion or politics or morality or of science, are equally damning and equally damnable.
~Stephen Buhner -
As Salaamu Alaikum Katara,
Thank you for you response. And I would like to add that Praise be to ALLAH for you recognizing the essentialness of the Prophet Muhammad (S) in our belief. Many want to make this a right and wrong issue. It is far from that, it is a matter of belief issue. How can possibly remove from the picture, the very one through whom the Qur'an was revealed. How do we know about the Qur'an except through the Prophet Muhammad (S). And if one full of ignorance dares to say, that it is the hadith that we reject not the Prophet Muhammad (S), then the same people who transmitted the Qur'an from one generation to the next is the same exact people who transmitted the Hadith.
Excuse me Abu Zahrah ...when Bukhari was not even born, quran was already compiled and had been distributed for around two centuries ...So whatever Bukhari collected during his life time, it has NOTHING to do with quran. Doubting the reliability and the authenticity of Bukhari's collections is by no means doubting quran.
I don't deny the possibility that some sayings of the prophet might have survived through hadiths. I just want to take something as its reality. When I read divine revelations, I take it as divine revelations => (1). And when I read unreliable unauthentic corrupted historical reports => (2), I take it as such. ELEVATING (2) on equal authority as (1) is SHIRK. That scholars call it "obeying messenger" doesn't make it shirk free. Sorry to say that, but the truth has to be spoken.
Last but not least, in case you are not aware, Bukhari even rejected quran. According to Bukhari, the quran we have is not the same as the one revealed to the prophet. "Some" verses are missing according to Bukhari. Please ponder about that brother!
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Do you or anyone one else know what ASBAAB UN NUZOOL is? If you do, please explain it? And why have not anyone yet responded to the Ayat I posted. I provided all of you with textual evidence, logical evidence and even some historical evidence of why we have to look the the detailed life of the Messenger (S) in order to truly follow the Qur'an, and no one, NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON, has responded to what I provided, rather all you people can do is harp on the "Bashing Bukhari Bandwagon" You people have absolutely NO scholastic source, no one to refer back to for further understanding, except Non-Muslims, and how interesting is that!!!
AC my friend, there is a historical context in which the revelation occurred in, you and the rest of the chorus should understand that! What do you think the Companions of the Messenger (S) was doing around Him (S) for 23 years of revelation? What do you think the Messenger (S) was doing. History was happening my friend, and it was being recorded, both through memorization, and later expressed through oral tradition, and as well as through written memorization. The Companions did both. But if we just took the "Chorus" word for it, we are left with the idea that Divine Revelation came down upon the Prophet Muhammad (S), was completed and 14 centuries later all we need to do is look to the Qur'an. Where is the historical context? Where is the history? There is a Companion of the Prophet (S) mentioned in the Qur'an by name (do you know who that is?), what was the history behind that? There several incidents mentioned in the Qur'an that addressed the Messenger (S) about an affair that occurred during His (S) time, even directly related to Him (S). What was these things about? How would you know? The Qur'an does not give the details, but the details are important because there is a lesson to be learned from it. And NO, you "Great men of learning" I am not at all saying that the Qur'an left out what was important, I am saying the Qur'an left out the detail of events, rather the details of it was explained by those who witnessed it, and they reported that detail later. Just as we tell of events in our lives, 2, 4, 8, 10 years later, so did these Great Companions, and did so with awe and reverence, for they know they were talking about Divine matters. We remember and speak about outrage mundane matters and can narrate them with accuracy, not these Men of the Messenger, those Blessed People who witnessed Revelation, and passed on what they witnessed. Please, I wish you people get for real!!! Because your arguments are comical to say the least.
But please answer my initial question before you start attacking Imam Bukhari. And if you could respond back to any of what I posted, I would be overjoyed to see it.
Ma Salaam
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Salam Abu,
You said,"And why have not anyone yet responded to the Ayat I posted. I provided all of you with textual evidence, logical evidence and even some historical evidence of why we have to look the the detailed life of the Messenger (S) in order to truly follow the Qur'an,"
May i know where, which one? I am willing to read and consider it... thanks, D
peace,
aimi -
As Salaamu Alaikum Katara;
It may be a bit tedious to look in each thread and find where a left different post provide the info. you inquired about. But a short cut to this may be helpful if you wish. You can go to the home page, look under 'Members', scroll down to "Abu Zahrah" and click there, go to profile, and under that is has all of the post. You can browse through these and I hope you find what you are looking for. Please let me know if you do or don't. And Islamicity is a nice site to visit and learn from. May ALLAH bless you.
Ma Salaam