2:230
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OPF, lol, so semen now qualifies as a drug.... ok, i'll just keep away from it and stick to my cigarettes
Also, it takes time to get over a divorce, does it not?
Seriously, you're not implying that it takes only four month to get over a divorce ? Well, everything exists, but that for sure is not the common pattern.
Genteel, about the waiting period before and after. Before it's a possibility for the couple to change their minds. After i'd see it as an attempt to make sure that no baby's on the way. IMO, nowadays, a pregnancy test should be enough.
progod, i know about the procedure in quran, but i don't think it's applied this way here. No family members judicially involved as far as i know. But one can also see this part of the procedure as an incitement for the family, before they go to the judges. So it should not be in the official procedure.
salaams all, elke
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OPF, lol, so semen now qualifies as a drug.... ok, i'll just keep away from it and stick to my cigarettes
Seriously, you're not implying that it takes only four month to get over a divorce ? Well, everything exists, but that for sure is not the common pattern.Genteel, about the waiting period before and after. Before it's a possibility for the couple to change their minds. After i'd see it as an attempt to make sure that no baby's on the way. IMO, nowadays, a pregnancy test should be enough.
progod, i know about the procedure in quran, but i don't think it's applied this way here. No family members judicially involved as far as i know. But one can also see this part of the procedure as an incitement for the family, before they go to the judges. So it should not be in the official procedure.
salaams all, elke
Of course not I'm stabbing in the dark here.
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Genteel, about the waiting period before and after. Before it's a possibility for the couple to change their minds. After i'd see it as an attempt to make sure that no baby's on the way. IMO, nowadays, a pregnancy test should be enough.
Yes Elke, while I agree on the waiting period before the divorce perhaps for the better side of a possible reconciliation and the time to think it over, it was/is meaningless to wait yet another 4 mentrual cycles.Peace!
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Samia, please check verses 2226, 2228, 2231 & 2234. It may have been misunderstood.
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Peace all,
Maybe that 4 months is for widows!?
Majidah
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Samia, please check verses 2226, 2228, 2231 & 2234. It may have been misunderstood.
Verse 226 is addressing men/males, and is not about divorce, but about those who take an oath not to have intimate relations with their wives, then change their minds they have to wait for 4 months before they resuming this relationship.
228 is the one about divorced women to wait for three consecutive menstrual periods
231 and 234 nothing mentioned concerning any period, except for nursing a baby (2 years)
234 for widows 4 months and 10 days. -
Verse 226 is addressing men/males, and is not about divorce, but about those who take an oath not to have intimate relations with their wives, then change their minds they have to wait for 4 months before they resuming this relationship.
228 is the one about divorced women to wait for three consecutive menstrual periods
231 and 234 nothing mentioned concerning any period, except for nursing a baby (2 years)
234 for widows 4 months and 10 days.Thanks God i,m not a women ;D
peace
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Verse 226 is addressing men/males, and is not about divorce, but about those who take an oath not to have intimate relations with their wives, then change their minds they have to wait for 4 months before they resuming this relationship.
228 is the one about divorced women to wait for three consecutive menstrual periods
231 and 234 nothing mentioned concerning any period, except for nursing a baby (2 years)
234 for widows 4 months and 10 days.
Yes Samia, while all that may be true as per Quranic injunctions dating ancient times, the point is that much of it is controversial and does not apply verbatum in today's times. The waiting period before finalizing divorce seem to be supporting reconciliation rather than menstrual cycles to acknowledge pregancy or adultry. After the divorce has commenced, I see no point in waiting periods given the 4 months already and the 130 days waiting period for widows is simply nonsense (I believe its called iddatt). The relationship of husband/wife ends at divorce. Ofcourse, overtime they can re-marry. -
Peace,
For those who will leave their wives, waith 4 months and if they come back to their wives(taaboo(metaphorical return) or raja&oo(literal return)) then God is forgiving and full of mercy.
Lillatheena yuloona min nisaihim tarabbusu arbaAAati ashhurin fain faoo fainna Allaha ghafoorun raheemun(2226)
2227 But if they are resolved on divorce -behold, God is all-hearing, all-knowing.
Wain AAazamoo alttalaqa fainna Allaha sameeAAun AAaleemun
(2227)
Anway, this is definitely speaking about divorce and Samia is right it is when the man wants a divorce. There is nothing about swearing here and yu'loona means to desist from, to refran from, to neglect or to not do. The issue here is when the man does not want his wife anymore. In which case he should wait 4 months before he decides on getting divorced. Futhermore since later down we see
Al-Baqara (The Cow)
2228 And the divorced women shall undergo, without remarrying, a waiting-period of three monthly courses for it is not lawful for them to conceal what God may have created in their wombs, if they believe in God and the Last Day. And during this period their husbands are fully entitled to take them back, if they desire reconciliation; but, in accordance with justice, the rights of the wives are equal to the rights with regard to them, although men a degree of precedence over them.. And God is almighty, wise.
Waalmutallaqatu yatarabbasna bianfusihinna thalathata qurooin wala yahillu lahunna an yaktumna ma khalaqa Allahu fee arhamihinna in kunna yuminna biAllahi waalyawmi alakhiri wabuAAoolatuhunna ahaqqu biraddihinna fee thalika in aradoo islahan walahunna mithlu allathee AAalayhinna bialmaAAroofi walilrrijali AAalayhinna darajatun waAllahu AAazeezun hakeemun
(222
We can assume that with women it is the same deal. If they want to get divorced they need to wait 4 months first as well, before deciding on that. In which case the 3 menstrual periods also applies to them.
Let me say that pregnant women can spot (light menstruation) when they are normally supposed to have their periods so to wait 3 menstruations is a very good decision to make sure that there is no child on the way.
This Eelaa'un (verbal noun from yu'lee/pl. yu'loona) is a declared separation (he is leaving her or she is leaving him) and a serious consideration of divorce.
It also seems that we should favor the men in the case of divorce, however obviously issues like spousal abuse against the women will be determining factors, so the community pressure (I like this better based on the issue of shooraa and laa ikraaha feedeeni in the Quran) should favor the men when it comes to issues of divorce. Again, we still need to take the whole book into consideration and what it says about extremism in our dealings with each other, and that ill-feelings are not to govern our decision to be divorced per419 O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good. - English
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo la yahillu lakum an tarithoo alnnisaa karhan wala taAAduloohunna litathhaboo bibaAAdi ma ataytumoohunna illa an yateena bifahishatin mubayyinatin waAAashiroohunna bialmaAAroofi fain karihtumoohunna faAAasa an takrahoo shayan wayajAAala Allahu feehi khayran katheeran
Maa ataytumoohunna can be anything that men give to women.
(419)
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
For those who will leave their wives, waith 4 months and if they come back to their wives(taaboo(metaphorical return) or raja&oo(literal return)) then God is forgiving and full of mercy.
Lillatheena yuloona min nisaihim tarabbusu arbaAAati ashhurin fain faoo fainna Allaha ghafoorun raheemun(2226)
We can assume that with women it is the same deal. If they want to get divorced they need to wait 4 months first as well, before deciding on that. In which case the 3 menstrual periods also applies to them.
(he is leaving her or she is leaving him)
Salaam Anwar
You paid attention to what I did not...thanks!
So the verse, when addressing women, will read\
Thus we see clearly the specific sociolinguistics of the qur'aan "she" contains "he"; or the generic female, contrary to human/universal linguistics which rejects this.
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Genteel,
With a statement like this, do you even follow the Quran? Do you consider yourself a follower of the Quran or what? Why are you trying to void the Quran instead of trying to understand the wisdom behind God's commands. Would you change God's words to fit your idea of how a modern world should be? This is Ishraak(also known as shirk), and is a sin. You make your concept of modernity equal to God almighty and serve it as you should serve God. But again if you don't believe in the divinity of the Quran and are just a Quran critic well then lakum deenukum wa liya deenee.
while all that may be true as per Quranic injunctions dating ancient times, the point is that much of it is controversial and does not apply verbatum in today's times
Godbless,
Anwar -
Anwar,
You are not living in the 500th century (2007-1500). The general consensus of living a righteous, meaningful and peaceful life is universal. Many laws of the Quran DO NOT apply today, PERIOD. All laws get rectified and evolve from time to time. Please get over your wishful and nonsensical arguments. And please do read what I stated on this thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14899.45.
Peace!
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Sorry Genteel,
The reason which you stated is exactly why we cannot abandon whats within the Quran, what about 1000 years from now? Can we make all the rulings void based on the general consensus? Morality is not something relative, God's ideas are absolute and timeless. I suspect this will be an issue that we as a community will have to come to grips with, alot of us will favour modernising, contrastingly, alot will favour trusting in the Wisdom of the Quran.But we must be careful not to think the Quran as "outdated" considering it is the our most "recent" Revelation.
Peace
Al -
I don't see the problem with Genteel's argument. The spirit of the law takes precedence over the letter (trying to apply the letter blindly might violate its purpose - "maqsid". If the point is detecting pregnancy, then a pregnancy test should be enough, no need for additional pointless hardships.
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Anwar,
You are not living in the 500th century (2007-1500). The general consensus of living a righteous, meaningful and peaceful life is universal. Many laws of the Quran DO NOT apply today, PERIOD. All laws get rectified and evolve from time to time. Please get over your wishful and nonsensical arguments. And please do read what I stated on this thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14899.45.
Peace!
Can you give us an example of an impossible/inapplicable law from the Quran, if you are truthful?
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Peace,
Do we have any evidence in the Quran where it says it was only created for a people who live in the 6th century? No.
Does God know the needs of people in all times? Yes.
When God sends a book that he addresses to all mankind do its laws and policies apply just to people at the time the books was revealed or to all mankind? To all Mankind.
Genteel, you are undermining God's wisdom and inventing ideas which you do not find in the Quran which is leading you away from the Quran.
I am in agreement with getting the Arabic correct and not relying on the outdated opinions of scholars but God's message is timeless. It is for all Mankind, and the book says that. Prenancy tests and such which can be be incorrect at that, do not match up to waiting in order to tell if a woman is pregnant or not, and this could be only one of the reasons for this policy in the Quran. Do you guys not trust in God's wisdom and knowledge and that he knows what is best? Do you guys think you are smarter than God and so want to nullify his commands, following some of the book and throwing away some of it? Doesn't the Quran warn you of this?
In the end it is up to the faithful to follow God's commands and the unfaithful to break them and find excuses for why they do not follow them (especially when these opinions are not based on textual evidence, but speculations and conjecture). Genteel your disbelief in the Quran and God's timeless wisdom is an issue between you and God. Don't get frustrated with me, your frustration is really with God and you need to deal with that. All I can recommend to you is that you let the Quran tell you what to do and how to be instead of trying to tell the Quran what to do and how it should be.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Can you give us an example of an impossible/inapplicable law from the Quran, if you are truthful?
Big difference between "impossible" and "inapplicable" (but both can be justified in only specific cases), LOL!There are not one but several examples of Quranic injunctions that are not applicable today (or perhaps may never have been). One such Quranic law is the distribution of inheritance.
Can you present one factual evidence from any Muslim family (adult parent/s) or even from an accountant who sits around all day long (or perhaps for days and weeks) calculating their financial assets and goods to be distributed to their loved ones in absolute accuracy and preciseness AS PER THE QURAN (47-8, 411-12, 433, 4176)? Please present the entire details of distribution?
Also, is inheritance acquired from parents only to be distributed AFTER their death?
On the contrary, was there a monetary (paper/coinage) system or a barter system during Muhammad's reign?
Other examples on lashings/whippings (242, 244); cutting thieves hands (53; killings, crucifixions, cutting hands and feet on alternate sides, banishing from lands (533); beheadings/slaughterings (1165, 146, 26157, 284, 9114) and stonings to death (while this may not be explicit but several verses point to them such as 224, 832, 1182-83, 1191, 1574, 1820, 1946, 26116, 3618, 5133, 5434, 666, 1054 along with explicit statements in ahadiths), ALL of which DO NOT apply today, though extremely rare even in some Muslim countries. History and other holy books are also full of such stories and were not the sole punishments carried out by only Arabs or Muslims of their times, if that is what worries you. Those were barbaric pagan laws common to them and perhaps "justified" in their times pitiless (242). I've already elaborated on this previously.
Finally, just because somethings or events are not mentioned in the Quran DOES NOT mean they never existed. Quran is not the only book that exists today by which human beings cannot live their lives without, yet I respect the book for lot of its wisdom emanating from previous generations as seen today.
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Do we have any evidence in the Quran where it says it was only created for a people who live in the 6th century? No.
Do you have any evidence in the Quran that mentions exact number of days to FAST during Ramadan? Do you have any evidence in the Quran that precisely mentions that the Quran is for ALL TIMES?Besides, as mentioned in my previous post, just because somethings or events are not mentioned in the Quran DOES NOT mean they never existed.
Genteel, you are undermining God's wisdom and inventing ideas which you do not find in the Quran which is leading you away from the Quran.
Genteel your disbelief in the Quran and God's timeless wisdom is an issue between you and God. Don't get frustrated with me, your frustration is really with God and you need to deal with that. All I can recommend to you is that you let the Quran tell you what to do and how to be instead of trying to tell the Quran what to do and how it should be.
Anwar, at this juncture, I can only humbly request you to refrain from putting up with silly arguments and getting personal. I am discussing certain ancient laws and subject matters in contrast to modern ones. If you have the courage to discuss them, then please do so ethically without pointing fingers.The question of waiting 4 months after a divorce just to find out if the women is pregnant or not, is not applicable today and is meaningless. Now, is this law impossible, perhaps not but will certainly not pass given the technology at hand.
Peace!