59:7 - Explain.
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As Salaamu Alaikum,
I see much has ensued since I been gone. Don't really know where to start. But since I was accused of not responding to one post, I will attempt to start there. But before I do, I would like to say that a friend of mine, OPF responded to at least two post after I left a rebuttal for him to respond to, and I have not seen anything about it.
Quote from OPF
DO YOU BELIEVE THE QURAN CAN BE VERIFIED AS THE WORD OF GOD TODAY AS IT IS?Yes, that is easy, but it is not simply by stating that the Qur'an said it. To do so is arguing from your belief, not from facts. And believe is not always substantial in proving anything. Proving FACTS, entail the useage of external agents to assure so, like history, congruity with known scientific realities (though not always a method in establishing such) and the like. As for the Qur'an, proving its veracity is contingent upon at the least these two factors. Lets take a look; History, which is first, because if you can't authenticate that something is from the source of claim, how can you even believe it in the first place. So before we even consider whether or not the Qur'an is from ALLAH or not is indifferent to the first fact of proving that this is the Qur'an that ALLAH is talking about! And that cannot be done from within the Qur'an alone. There has to be an external element to prove this, and if this is proved false, the whole thing is the same. Now, when looking at history, as it relates to the Qur'an, then there are two many factors, the Islamic method of preserving history and the non-Islamic way of preserving history. As for the non-Islamic way of preserving history, then it is basically through the method of examining and using respective contemporary sources that noted their history about given events. Some are reliable, some are not. So, already this type of approach can not be considered conclusive! Now, as for the Islamic way of preserving history, in particular of religious texts, then, ITS MAIN FACTOR IS THROUGH THE ISNAD SYSTEM. THIS IS JUST A FACT OF ISLAMIC HISTORY, THAT STRETCHES BACK OVER 14 CENTURIES AND WHICH INCLUDES THE HISTORY OF THE QUR'AN, HADITH AND VARIOUS RELIGIOUS TEXT OF STUDY. About this science of Isnad, it is a well proven thorough system of assuring the highest veracity of anything transmitted through the passage of time. And as it relates to the Qur'an it is even more essential, since the Qur'an must be completely accurate in not only its meanings, but its syntax. And anyone who has studied the science of Tajweed knows how serious an affair this is. A stretching of a vowel at the wrong time can completely alter the meaning. A slip in putting on the vowel marks can cause the same. AND WHEN THE QUR'AN WAS TRANSMITTED, IT WAS NOT THROUGH SCRIPT, IT WAS THROUGH THE ORAL RECITIATION THEREOF. AND PLEASE HERE THIS, IF ONE RECITED THE QUR'AN IN ITS ENTIRETY FROM MEMORY (AFTER HAVING LEARNED IT HIMSELF FROM A BOOK), BUT COULD NOT VERIFY A TEACHER THAT HE TOOK THAT FROM, HE WOULD BE DISMISSED AS A VALID QUR'AN PRESERVER (HAFITH). Why? Because without a teacher, you have no connection to anyone, and that means you cannot be traced back to the Messenger of ALLAH through an UNBROKEN CHAIN OF TRANSMITTERS THROUGH EVERY GENERATION BACK TO THE MESSENGER (S), BACK TO ANGEL JIBRIL (A), BACK TO THE LORD OF THE WORLDS, ALLAH, EXALTED IS HE! And at this point, after I have VERIFIED its historical authenticity, and is certain that the Qur'an that was revealed to the Prophet (S), is still in tact and is the same copy that I hold in my hand, now I can go and use the internal factors of the Qur'an to substantiate its Divine Authority!!! And I would encourage all of you to study the science of Tajweed. And anyone who says that this is not important, really is just waisting his time.
Next point, OPF you stated; God tells us not to accept baseless ahadeeth. God tells us to ensure all our information can be verified. God tells us 'do not say "we have faith", rather say "we submit to the lord of the worlds" and allow faith then to enter your hearts'. Obey the messenger does not mean obeying baseless hadeeth. Obeying the messenger does not mean obeying easily tamperable chains of transmission. Here is something that ALLAH said, please, explain, what does this mean to you.
ALLAH said "BUT NO, BY YOUR LORD, THEY CANNOT (TRULY) BELIEVE, UNTIL THEY MAKE YOU, ( O MUHAMMAD), JUDGE CONCERNING OVER WHICH THEY DISPUTE AMONGST THEMSELVES AND THEN FIND WITHIN THEMSELVES NO DISCOMFORT FROM WHAT YOU HAVE JUDGED AND SUBMIT IN (FULL, WILLING) SUBMISSION." (465)
ALLAH said ("IT IS NOT FOR FOR A BELIEVING MAN OR BELIEVING WOMAN, WHEN ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER HAVE DECIDED A MATTER, THAT THEY SHOULD (THEREAFTER) HAVE ANY CHOICE ABOUT THEIR AFFAIR. AND WHOEVER DISOBEYS ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER HAS CERTAINLY STRAYED INTO CLEAR ERROR". (3336)
AND ALLAH SAID; "MAKE NOT THE CALLING OF THE MESSENGER AMONG YOU AS YOUR CALLING OF ONE ANOTHER. ALLAH KNOWS OF YOU WHO SLIP AWAY UNDER SHELTER. AND LET THOSE WHO OPPOSE THE MESSENGER'S COMMANDMENTS BEWARE, LEST SOME TRIAL BEFALL THEM OR A PAINFUL TORMENT BE INFLICTED ON THEM". (2463)
AND ALLAH SAID "AND WHEN IT IS SAID TO THEM, COME TO WHAT ALLAH HAS REVEALED AND TO THE MESSENGER, YOU SEE THE HYPOCRITES TURNING AWAY FROM YOU IN AVERSION". (461)
By ALLAH, I can bring dozens more, literally, but these should suffice. What I wanted everyone to see in these Ayat is that the distinction that ALLAH made between HIS word and command and that of the Messenger (S), please just read it, it is clear. So, one cannot absurdly claim that to obey the Messenger means follow the Qur'an. That makes absolutely no sense. For ALLAH has already told us to Obey ALLAH, then why to repeat it with and follow the Qur'an? In Ayah 460, this is even more clear, because ALLAH says "AND WHEN IT IS SAID TO THEM, COME TO WHAT ALLAH HAS REVEALED" Now does it make sense to state right after that and follow the Qur'an? It would read like this is it was together. AND WHEN IT IS SAID TO THEM, COME TO WHAT ALLAH HAS REVEALED AND FOLLOW THE QUR'AN. THE QUR'AN IS WHAT ALLAH REVEALED!!! So then what is the meaning of the second part; "AND TO THE MESSENGER"? Please answer that. Come to the Messenger (wa ila Ar-Rasul). This does not mean follow the Qur'an! It means exactly what it says, come to the Messenger, His way, His commands, His Sunnah, and all of this is found in the Authentic Hadith.
As for your statement; "Why is it nonsense? Archaeology says that the cube is an old pagan practice". Well my friend OPF, forget about what they say, what do you say? And then lets read what ALLAH says
"THEN LET THEM END THEIR UNTIDINESS AND FULFILL THEIR VOWS AND PERFORM TAWAF (CIRCUMMAMBALTION) AROUND THE ANCIENT HOUSE". (2229)I didn't do point for point, as my Brother Hlatif done a good job in bagging a lot of the other hot air you let out. But please, would you now respond to this. I have brought up your arguments, and dealt with them. The floor is now yours, and I will try to be a bit more structured and prompt, but I do have a lot of work to do on my end.
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Salaam
My buddy Nun, back again with the same old stuff. What are you having fun? Because you sure not making any sense. Why are you still regurgitating your robotic responses? No one is arguing against what the Qur'an say, rather Hlatif and myself are just bringing you all alternative Ayat that clarify and particularize those very general ones that you are keep citing. You want to see some Ayat, then look at the refutation of OPF in my last post. Deal with those Ayat. And stop just pasting Ayat on the post that has no impact to the discussion, since we all already agree to those Ayat. Man, you are like the energizer bunny, you just keep beating the same old drum, on and on and on...
As for you open-minded, first and foremost, you need to go back and re-read your book on usool-at-tafsir or wherever you got your definitions from. Because the definition for mutashabihat is not verses that have more than one meaning, this is a gross error, and again indicative of your ignorance of Qur'an. Mutashabihat means ambiguous, unclear, meaning, we don't really know what the meaning is, and we should delve into it. That is the meaning of mutashabihat. Thus to claim an Ayah as you stated is Mutashabi, is just non-sense. Unless it is mutashabi only to you, and that may well be the case, because it obvious you don't know what it mean. And too state that 6114 is Muhkam, then maybe you just learned some terminology and was anxious to use it. That ayah has a context, and you cannot generalize it like that because look what ALLAH says in 465. To Make the Prophet (S) the judge. So is this a contradiction? Is the Qur'an contradicting itself? No, not at all, you people are contradicting it. You people want to you general Ayat against specific and vise versa and then claim how clear it is. Extremely strange, especially when you never deal with the Ayat that are posted to show you that your understanding of the Ayat that you have employed in incorrect. Please, respond to these Ayat! You can't, rather you press your automated button or responses using the same exact Ayat, and the same lines. People get with reality!!!
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As for you open-minded, first and foremost, you need to go back and re-read your book on usool-at-tafsir or wherever you got your definitions from. Because the definition for mutashabihat is not verses that have more than one meaning, this is a gross error, and again indicative of your ignorance of Qur'an. Mutashabihat means ambiguous, unclear, meaning, we don't really know what the meaning is, and we should delve into it. That is the meaning of mutashabihat.
That is ultimately my point. It is ambiguous and essentially open to different interpretations, as I said. Further, the verse goes on to say no one but God knows the true "interpretation" or meaning.
Thus to claim an Ayah as you stated is Mutashabi, is just non-sense. Unless it is mutashabi only to you, and that may well be the case, because it obvious you don't know what it mean. And too state that 6114 is Muhkam, then maybe you just learned some terminology and was anxious to use it. That ayah has a context, and you cannot generalize it like that because look what ALLAH says in 465. To Make the Prophet (S) the judge.
6114 is clear. Tell me how the context goes against it being perfectly clear.
In regards to 465, look at 548-50
548-50 And We have sent down to you the Scripture with truth, authenticating what is present of the Scripture and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute. And judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their wishes, and beware lest they divert you away from some of what God has sent down to you. If they turn away, then know that God wants to inflict them with some of their sins; and most of the people are corrupt. Is it the judgment of the days of ignorance that they seek? Who is better than God as a judge for a people that comprehend?
So is this a contradiction? Is the Qur'an contradicting itself? No, not at all, you people are contradicting it. You people want to you general Ayat against specific and vise versa and then claim how clear it is. Extremely strange, especially when you never deal with the Ayat that are posted to show you that your understanding of the Ayat that you have employed in incorrect. Please, respond to these Ayat! You can't, rather you press your automated button or responses using the same exact Ayat, and the same lines. People get with reality!!!
Nope, no contradiction at all. Read the verses above.
Peace
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My buddy Nun, back again with the same old stuff. What are you having fun? Because you sure not making any sense. Why are you still regurgitating your robotic responses? No one is arguing against what the Qur'an say, rather Hlatif and myself are just bringing you all alternative Ayat that clarify and particularize those very general ones that you are keep citing. You want to see some Ayat, then look at the refutation of OPF in my last post. Deal with those Ayat. And stop just pasting Ayat on the post that has no impact to the discussion, since we all already agree to those Ayat.
People get with reality!!!
My buddy Abu, back again contradicting Qur?an with illogical absurdness and sure OPF wouldn?t mind?
ALLAH said "BUT NO, BY YOUR LORD, THEY CANNOT (TRULY) BELIEVE, UNTIL THEY MAKE YOU, ( O MUHAMMAD), JUDGE CONCERNING OVER WHICH THEY DISPUTE AMONGST THEMSELVES AND THEN FIND WITHIN THEMSELVES NO DISCOMFORT FROM WHAT YOU HAVE JUDGED AND SUBMIT IN (FULL, WILLING) SUBMISSION." (465)
Continue reading (in context) to see?
- If We had ordered them to sacrifice their lives or to leave their homes, very few of them would have done it But if they had done what they were (actually) told, it would have been best for them, and would have gone farthest to strengthen their (faith);
ALLAH said ("IT IS NOT FOR FOR A BELIEVING MAN OR BELIEVING WOMAN, WHEN ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER HAVE DECIDED A MATTER, THAT THEY SHOULD (THEREAFTER) HAVE ANY CHOICE ABOUT THEIR AFFAIR. AND WHOEVER DISOBEYS ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER HAS CERTAINLY STRAYED INTO CLEAR ERROR". (3336)
Once again, continue reading (in context) to see the clear example?
- Behold! Thou didst say to one who had received the grace of Allah and thy favour "Retain thou (in wedlock) thy wife, and fear Allah." But thou didst hide in thy heart that which Allah was about to make manifest thou didst fear the people, but it is more fitting that thou shouldst fear Allah. Then when Zaid had dissolved (his marriage) with her, with the necessary (formality), We joined her in marriage to thee in order that (in future) there may be no difficulty to the Believers in (the matter of) marriage with the wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have dissolved with the necessary (formality) (their marriage) with them. And Allah.s command must be fulfilled.
AND ALLAH SAID; "MAKE NOT THE CALLING OF THE MESSENGER AMONG YOU AS YOUR CALLING OF ONE ANOTHER. ALLAH KNOWS OF YOU WHO SLIP AWAY UNDER SHELTER. AND LET THOSE WHO OPPOSE THE MESSENGER'S COMMANDMENTS BEWARE, LEST SOME TRIAL BEFALL THEM OR A PAINFUL TORMENT BE INFLICTED ON THEM". (2463)
Once again, read (in context; verse prior this time) to see necessary details are all there?
- Only those are believers, who believe in Allah and His Messenger. when they are with him on a matter requiring collective action, they do not depart until they have asked for his leave; those who ask for thy leave are those who believe in Allah and His Messenger. so when they ask for thy leave, for some business of theirs, give leave to those of them whom thou wilt, and ask Allah for their forgiveness for Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.
AND ALLAH SAID "AND WHEN IT IS SAID TO THEM, COME TO WHAT ALLAH HAS REVEALED AND TO THE MESSENGER, YOU SEE THE HYPOCRITES TURNING AWAY FROM YOU IN AVERSION". (461)
- Not possible to visit or go hang out with deceased people.
- We do have what was ?revealed? in Qur?an.
Oh, and I am having fun and really do like this sunnah?
'Honey is a remedy for every illness and the Qur'an is a remedy for all illness of the mind, therefore I recommend to you both remedies, the Qur'an and honey.' (Bukhari)
Suggest you try reading Qur?an (for the mind) and honey goes good while reading... peace
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Open minded,
again my friend, you are trying to use the Qur'an against the Qur'an. If you do that, it will never work for you and you will never understand it. Trying using the Qur'an, for the Qur'an, not against it. Meaning use one Ayah to help you understand another, like Hlatif and myself have been trying to do for you people.
And ambiguous or unclear Ayat are Ayat that we should NOT delve into. Although people may attempt to do so, and by default there will be various opinions. But this meaning has nothing to do with 332. This Ayah is not mutashabi by a long shot. And for you to state that is proof of you ignorance, and that is the truth of the matter. There is nothing mutashabi about " Say, Obey ALLAH and HIS Messenger. But if they turn away - then indeed, ALLAH does not like the disbelievers." (332)
And you are still quoting 6114, this is just unbelievable!!! I guess you have not got an update on your automated responses yet, huh?
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Nun, I challenge you to read from 460 to 465 and post that context. Show the people what the context is and what it says. And you citing the Ayat before and after what I cited did absolutely nothing to change the point of citing those Ayat.
And fun you must be having, because you sure are not learning anything, and moreover not helping anyone else learn. But you are entitled to be here like everyone else. We will just keep walking over you when we see you down there.
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Open minded,
again my friend, you are trying to use the Qur'an against the Qur'an. If you do that, it will never work for you and you will never understand it. Trying using the Qur'an, for the Qur'an, not against it. Meaning use one Ayah to help you understand another, like Hlatif and myself have been trying to do for you people.
Oh ok
And ambiguous or unclear Ayat are Ayat that we should NOT delve into. Although people may attempt to do so, and by default there will be various opinions. But this meaning has nothing to do with 332. This Ayah is not mutashabi by a long shot. And for you to state that is proof of you ignorance, and that is the truth of the matter. There is nothing mutashabi about " Say, Obey ALLAH and HIS Messenger. But if they turn away - then indeed, ALLAH does not like the disbelievers." (332)
Obey the messenger does not automatically mean obey the separate laws of the hadith. Would you not agree? You have this pre-conceived notion and knowledge of the hadith, so you think it automatically means this. How can you accept religious laws from other than the Quran?
And you are still quoting 6114, this is just unbelievable!!! I guess you have not got an update on your automated responses yet, huh?
Can you actually respond with substance instead of yelling at me? What do you not understand about the Quran being clearly explained? And how does the context of 6114 go against the Quran being clearly explained?
Also, you seem to have just dodged 548-50 because it discredited your interpretation of 465. Verify all information before you rudely hurl verses at me to try to prove something.
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Open-minded Salaams;
you said "Obey the messenger does not automatically mean obey the separate laws of the hadith. Would you not agree? You have this pre-conceived notion and knowledge of the hadith, so you think it automatically means this. How can you accept religious laws from other than the Quran?
My response;
Openminded do you follow all of the injuctions, commandments of the Qur'an. Especially the ones like the five pillars of Islam. After the Shahadah, prayer, zakah, fasting, and hajj? There are many more injunctions and "rules" but these will suffice for now. Ok, if you answer yes to this, then please tell me what Ayah in the Qur'an teaches us the DETAIL of the prayer, as performed by the Messenger (S)? What Ayah in the Qur'an teaches us how to pay zakah? Like when it is due and the percentage of money excess? Where? What Ayah? What Ayah teaches us about the hajj, in detail? As performed by the Messenger (S)? There are NONE!!! So how are we suppose to fulfill a command of ALLAH from the Qur'an if the knowledge of the means to fulfill it was never mentioned by ALLAH in the Qur'an? Please explain? So where is the detail of these acts of worship that ALLAH commanded us to do in the Qur'an? My friend, they don't exist in the Qur'an. Well, where can we find it, because it must be done, and ALLAH must have informed us about how, so where is it. I'll tell you. It is in the life of the Messenger (S), this is where we must look. And where is the life of the Messenger of ALLAH (S) to be explained in DETAIL, no not in the Qur'an but in the Authentic Hadith. That is clear, and I don't know what else I can say to you to make it clear. This is not preconceived ideas, this is fulfilling the commandment of my Lord upon my.
You said How can you accept religious laws from other than the Quran?
The question is really this. How can you seperate the Message of the Qur'an from the Messenger (S) who brought it to us and demonstrated the commands therein and explained them to us. This is the real question. You people have no connection to the Messenger (S). As far as you all are concerned, you can just do away with the Messenger (S, huh?
About 6114, I just covered some of that, and I am not yelling at you, but there is no need to cite that verse, I believe in the Qur'an, and I know that the Qur'an does, in places explains itself, but yet other times is does notand in these case what are we to do, just be ignorant about our Deen? No, we look to the one whom ALLAH sent with HIS Message, and learn from Him (S), because that is one of the reasons why ALLAH sent Him (S).
and no, I didn't just dodge 558-60, again this Ayah has a context in which it is in. And it is amazing how we talk about this idea of sontext and stuff, but we never apply it. If you look, it will clearly show you that ALLAH is addressing the Prophet Muhammad (S), about the people of the previous scriptures, and telling them to use their own book to judge, no the Qur'an, but telling the Prophet to judge by what ALLAH sent to him. Meaning don't think to use the books for judgement.
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Nun, I challenge you to read from 460 to 465 and post that context. Show the people what the context is and what it says. And you citing the Ayat before and after what I cited did absolutely nothing to change the point of citing those Ayat.
And fun you must be having, because you sure are not learning anything, and moreover not helping anyone else learn. But you are entitled to be here like everyone else. We will just keep walking over you when we see you down there.
What?s the matter with reading 466-68 as well? Verses teach about behavior of hypocrites?
460 Did you not see those who claimed they believed in what was sent down to you and what was sent before you? They wanted to seek judgment using evil, while they were ordered to reject it. It is the devil who wants to lead them far astray.461 And if they are told "Come to what God has sent down and to the messenger," you see the hypocrites turning away from you strongly.462 Why then, when a tragedy befalls them for what their hands have brought forth do they come to you swearing by God that they only wanted to do good and reconcile?463 These are a people whom God knows what is in their hearts, so turn away from them and advise them, and speak to their souls with a clear saying.464 We do not send a messenger except to be obeyed by God's leave. And had they come to you when they had wronged themselves and sought God's forgiveness, and the messenger sought forgiveness for them, they would have then found God to be Pardoning, Merciful.465 No, by your Lord, they will not believe until they make you judge in what they dispute with each other, then they will not find in their souls any animosity for what you have decided, and they will comply completely.466 And had We decreed for them "Kill yourselves," or "Leave your land," they would not have done so except for a few of them. And if they had done what they were advised with, it would have been better for them and helped to strengthen them.467 Then We would have given them from Us a great reward.468 And We would have guided them to a Straight Path.
Reason YOU are not learning is YOUR ?attitude? causing blindness. In this thread YOU have skipped (walked over) the following LESSONS...
False claim agreed by abu contradicting Qur?an?
"As for Al kitab, it is Qur'an and more."Evidence
271 These are verses of the Qur'an,-a book that makes (things) clear;
413 A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand;-False claim by abu contradicting Qur?an?
"I asked you to tell me or provide me with an Ayah where ALLAH clearly states that HE revealed the Qur'an (by name) to Muhammad (S) (by name)."Evidence
3340 MUHAMMAD is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets and Allah has full knowledge of all things.472 But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to MUHAMMAD - for it is the Truth from their Lord,- ?.
Transitive Property of Equality if a = b and b = c, then a = c
False claim by abu contradicting Qur?an?
"THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN KNOW IT IS 100% UNCHANGED IS IF YOU WERE ACTUALLY THERE"Evidence
159 We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly GUARD IT (from corruption).False claim by abu contradicting Qur?an?
"The Qur'an says that He is to teach it, how can you come and now say that wisdom cannot be taught?"Evidence
599 The Messenger's duty is but to PROCLAIM (the message)?Wisdom (Wis"dom) (-ducr/m), n.
- The quality of being wise; knowledge, and the capacity to make due use of it
Unfortunately that last one cannot be taught -- perhaps Qur'an and honey. peace
Edit forgot to mention abu was asked to provide hadith which shows details of how to pray.
Evidence NONE provided.
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I thought that you said that you read hadeeth books. There were many scholars in all those cities and material was written well before Bukhari. Some older books are still available from Tayalisi to Abdul Razzaq and others. The schools of thought of Fiqh came all of them before Bukhari and they were born out of that scholarship.
Reading hadeeth and being on par with a sunni 'scholar' are two different things. I do not and have never claimed to have been an expert in sunni 'scholarship' this I wholeheartedly admit. I'm sure there is ton's of stuff that you can bring up from that 'tradition' that I don't know about.
But that doesn't change the fact that the Qur'an, creation and inspiration all go hand in hand in helping us to learn and understand what we need to know to be 'muslims' -- all information straight from Allah, no one else, not tied to any other human being's understanding.
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Open-minded Salaams;
you said "Obey the messenger does not automatically mean obey the separate laws of the hadith. Would you not agree? You have this pre-conceived notion and knowledge of the hadith, so you think it automatically means this. How can you accept religious laws from other than the Quran?
My response;
Openminded do you follow all of the injuctions, commandments of the Qur'an. Especially the ones like the five pillars of Islam. After the Shahadah, prayer, zakah, fasting, and hajj? There are many more injunctions and "rules" but these will suffice for now. Ok, if you answer yes to this, then please tell me what Ayah in the Qur'an teaches us the DETAIL of the prayer, as performed by the Messenger (S)? What Ayah in the Qur'an teaches us how to pay zakah? Like when it is due and the percentage of money excess? Where? What Ayah? What Ayah teaches us about the hajj, in detail? As performed by the Messenger (S)? There are NONE!!! So how are we suppose to fulfill a command of ALLAH from the Qur'an if the knowledge of the means to fulfill it was never mentioned by ALLAH in the Qur'an? Please explain? So where is the detail of these acts of worship that ALLAH commanded us to do in the Qur'an? My friend, they don't exist in the Qur'an. Well, where can we find it, because it must be done, and ALLAH must have informed us about how, so where is it. I'll tell you. It is in the life of the Messenger (S), this is where we must look. And where is the life of the Messenger of ALLAH (S) to be explained in DETAIL, no not in the Qur'an but in the Authentic Hadith. That is clear, and I don't know what else I can say to you to make it clear. This is not preconceived ideas, this is fulfilling the commandment of my Lord upon my.
To use this argument is to say that God did not finish the job in the Quran. The Quran is complete. If the Quran does not give a certain detail that YOU personally want, that does not mean we need extra religious sources. The Quran leaves it to the reader to adjust as long as all other Quranic laws are followed. This even brings out the beauty of how universal Islam is. It is the ultimate, universal deen. The deen of submission to God. However, relying on 7th century Arab traditions isolates people and is not universal. This is simple logic, I don't know how clearer I can get. You are using information that is in the hadith to show that we need hadith. This is circular. The Quran is complete, detailed. Nothing was left out. Just because you personally wish for something to be answered, that does not mean the Quran is not complete. The reader is left to adjust.
You said How can you accept religious laws from other than the Quran?
The question is really this. How can you seperate the Message of the Qur'an from the Messenger (S) who brought it to us and demonstrated the commands therein and explained them to us. This is the real question. You people have no connection to the Messenger (S). As far as you all are concerned, you can just do away with the Messenger (S, huh?
The connection we have with the messenger is the Quran. Why not actually answer my question? You are taking additional religious law from something other than the Quran.
GOD thus explains His revelations for you, that you may understand.
GOD thus explains the revelations for you. GOD is Omniscient, Wise.
About 6114, I just covered some of that, and I am not yelling at you, but there is no need to cite that verse, I believe in the Qur'an, and I know that the Qur'an does, in places explains itself, but yet other times is does notand in these case what are we to do, just be ignorant about our Deen? No, we look to the one whom ALLAH sent with HIS Message, and learn from Him (S), because that is one of the reasons why ALLAH sent Him (S).
God sent His Message to many people. Where's the sunnah of Abraham, Jesus, etc.? This proves that there is no need to follow 7th Arab traditions. The deen of God is timeless.
and no, I didn't just dodge 558-60, again this Ayah has a context in which it is in. And it is amazing how we talk about this idea of sontext and stuff, but we never apply it. If you look, it will clearly show you that ALLAH is addressing the Prophet Muhammad (S), about the people of the previous scriptures, and telling them to use their own book to judge, no the Qur'an, but telling the Prophet to judge by what ALLAH sent to him. Meaning don't think to use the books for judgement.
547 And let the people of the Injeel judge with what God has sent down in it. <b>And whoever does not judge by what God has sent down, then these are the vile ones.</b>
Yes, the context is referring to previous scriptures as an example, but as you can see by the bold, this applies to anyone. Also, isn't the message of the previous prophets the same as the Quran?
Peace
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My old friend Nun,
Back again huh? And I guess you feel pretty good about your last post since it was so organized and structured, right? Please. Every point you noted was taken out of the context it was mentioned and you call it this or you call it that. Even the Ayat that you cited after the Ayat I challenged you to post, you intended out of context, Read the whole text from 460 to 468, and you will see, bu then again, I don't think you will see, but anyway one will see that you by implication fits the description of the hypocrite.
Now, to answer your post;
You stated;
"False claim agreed by abu contradicting Qur?an?
"As for Al kitab, it is Qur'an and more."My response;
I never commented on this statement at all. So now you are resulting to telling lies on me. How sorry '(
You stated;
"False claim by abu contradicting Qur?an?
"I asked you to tell me or provide me with an Ayah where ALLAH clearly states that HE revealed the Qur'an (by name) to Muhammad (S) (by name)."And then you provide as your proof;
Evidence
3340 MUHAMMAD is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets and Allah has full knowledge of all things.472 But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to MUHAMMAD - for it is the Truth from their Lord,- ?.
Transitive Property of Equality if a = b and b = c, then a = c"
My response;
This does not answer what I asked or provide what was requested. How many time are you going to fail at this same issue. Must I make it multiple choice for you? In neither of those Ayat is the word Qur'an mentioned. That is what I asked for so why don't you bring me that. I will make the question or request easier. BRING ME AN AYAH WHERE THE NAME MUHAMMAD AND THE WORD QUR'AN IS MENTIONED TOGETHER.
As for your statement;
"Transitive Property of Equality if a = b and b = c, then a = c"
Then lets apply it this way, If ALLAH commands us in the Qur'an,to not oppose the Commandments of the Messenger (S), and the words or commandments of the Messenger (S) is not in the Qur'an (The Qur'an is the Word and Commandments of ALLAH Alone!), then where are the words and commandments of the Messenger (S)?
You stated;
"False claim by abu contradicting Qur?an?
"THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN KNOW IT IS 100% UNCHANGED IS IF YOU WERE ACTUALLY THERE"my response;
It is clear foolishness like this that proves to your inability to follow anything. This actually was a quote of someone else, and I repeated it to them , showing them how it would work against them if they employed that type of reasoning. While, at the same time I stated that I didn't agre with it. Very poor job again Nun. There is one thing that I do have to admit about you, that is you are very consistant; its just in being wrong brickwall
And finally, Thank GOD, you stated;
"False claim by abu contradicting Qur?an?
"The Qur'an says that He is to teach it, how can you come and now say that wisdom cannot be taught?"Evidence
599 The Messenger's duty is but to PROCLAIM (the message)?my response;
Please, Nun, what does this say?
"It is HE who has sent among the unlettered a Messenger from themselves reciting to them HIS verses and purifying them AND TEACHING THEM THE BOOK AND WISDOM although they were before in clear error. (622)".
So now, heres your homework, read this verse until you get it CLEAR< and don't read or post anything else until then '(
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anyway one will see that you by implication fits the description of the hypocrite.
"False claim agreed by abu contradicting Qur?an?
"As for Al kitab, it is Qur'an and more."My response;
I never commented on this statement at all. So now you are resulting to telling lies on me. How sorry '(
In a post prior to yours, it was stated?
As for Al kitab, it is Qur'an and more.
To which YOU replied?
I didn't do point for point, as my Brother Hlatif done a good job in bagging a lot of the other hot air you let out.
Therefore; do you agree Al Kitab, it is Qur'an and more?
Or was that proven a FALSE statement according to Qur'an?
This does not answer what I asked or provide what was requested. How many time are you going to fail at this same issue. Must I make it multiple choice for you? In neither of those Ayat is the word Qur'an mentioned. That is what I asked for so why don't you bring me that. I will make the question or request easier. BRING ME AN AYAH WHERE THE NAME MUHAMMAD AND THE WORD QUR'AN IS MENTIONED TOGETHER
Do not be a coward hiding behind rhetoric and tell the truth and reason you asked?
Was it not to show us that we need hadith to know whom Qur?an was given?
Qur?an was given to the ?Seal of the Prophets!? 3340 & 472
Then lets apply it this way, If ALLAH commands us in the Qur'an,to not oppose the Commandments of the Messenger (S), and the words or commandments of the Messenger (S) is not in the Qur'an (The Qur'an is the Word and Commandments of ALLAH Alone!), then where are the words and commandments of the Messenger (S)?
This is absurd logic ? ALL WE HAVE IS QUR?AN!
ALL Messengers pertaining to those verses are gone!
353 "Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we FOLLOW THE MESSENGER. then write us down among those who bear witness."
Or perhaps you have ?other words? outside of Qur?an to follow the messenger above?
Where ? Gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John?
You stated;
"False claim by abu contradicting Qur?an?
"THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN KNOW IT IS 100% UNCHANGED IS IF YOU WERE ACTUALLY THERE"my response;
It is clear foolishness like this that proves to your inability to follow anything.
I follow Qur?an which states?
159 We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from CORRUPTION).
You like propagating the lies of hadith for which there was no protection given.
False claim by abu contradicting Qur?an?
"The Qur'an says that He is to teach it, how can you come and now say that wisdom cannot be taught?"Evidence
599 The Messenger's duty is but to PROCLAIM (the message)?my response;
Please, Nun, what does this say?
"It is HE who has sent among the unlettered a Messenger from themselves reciting to them HIS verses and purifying them AND TEACHING THEM THE BOOK AND WISDOM although they were before in clear error. (622)".
read this verse until you get it CLEAR..
Both verses above are very clear ? teach using Qur?an!
We too are doing the same by quoting to YOU verses from Qur?an!
Lastly, your posts are disrespectful ? this says a lot about you, your character, the people around you, and your beliefs.
Peace
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Greetings Abu Zahra,
As most of us know, this forum has historically been a place of dialogue, where people feel comfortable sharing ideas and viewpoints with intent of learning through sharing. True, we don't always agree, but that's not stopped the dialogue and has often only increased our learning.
But, hey, since when have we acquired a teacher that's giving out homework?
Are there grades to be given out at the end if we are good students and sit down, shut up, and learn to regurgitate what the teacher tells us to memorize??
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Selam to all,
"It is HE who has sent among the unlettered a Messenger from themselves reciting to them HIS verses and purifying them AND TEACHING THEM THE BOOK AND WISDOM although they were before in clear error. (622)".
Remember that Allah stated that His Hadith is the Best 3923, now if we look at the above verse through the lenses that you suggest, e.x. to understand it that the God teaches the book, e.x. Quran, and wisdom, e.x Hadith,... to me it looks as if the later (Hadith) is better than the former (Kuran) according to what u suggest and that is not what God wanted us to believe. Moreover, understanding the verse that way is not valid due to the fact that there is no way that other Hadith (full of contradictions) can be better that the True Hadith... suggesting that the wisdom is contained in the hadiths outside Quran is wrong because one might say consciously or unconsciously, and unfortunately it is happening all over muslims, that we have the wisdom (hadith) and thus we have in there everything that we need (no need for Quran)... and all of us know that this is wrong. Hence there is no way that that WISDOM word is referring to some outside sources of Quran.
Peace,
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Salaam all,
Here are some false claims from Nun
1- The only thing available is Qur'an.
Wrong, whether you like it or not, you do have something called Hadeeth available. You cannot ignore something just because you reject it.2- The messenger only taught through the Qur'an.
Partial truth. The messenger taught through the Qur'an, but through other examples as well. He was not a parrot. For example he taught by example and by implementation of Qur'anic laws that came to him. Are you going to claim that he did nothing and did not implement the ordinances and laws that God gave him? How did the messenger implement those laws? How did he implement Salat, SAwm, Zakat? none of you know and you are lost in la la land, becaue you reject his example.As for Wisdom. It is defined in the Lisan Al Arab as the use of the best tools of knowledge, mercy and justice to arrive at the best implementation. So, Hikma is about putting the pieces of knowledge that one gains from the "book" together in order to implement it the best way. It is learnt by example and one cannot learn it adequately through reading the book. Example, you do not get treated by a doctor who read the books of medicine, but who was not trained medical thinking by another doctor. That is Hikma. It means learning by example and the hadeeth provides you many examples.
However, this is my last post on this subject and others on this forum, at least for a while. I hope that I delivered something to people who contemplate.
Take care all.
Hussein
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Here are some false claims from Nun
1- The only thing available is Qur'an.
Wrong, whether you like it or not, you do have something called Hadeeth available. You cannot ignore something just because you reject it.There are these hadith as well ? shall we treat them as Holy Scripture?
http//www.earlychristianwritings.com
none of you know and you are lost in la la land, becaue you reject his example.
You know for certainty exactly what happened, right?
We are humans not robots requiring instructions for every mundane task like eating/drinking, sleeping, dressing ? basic principles in Qur'an require only common sense.
It is learnt by example and one cannot learn it adequately through reading the book. Example, you do not get treated by a doctor who read the books of medicine, but who was not trained medical thinking by another doctor. That is Hikma. It means learning by example and the hadeeth provides you many examples.
Like what dipping a fly?
Lastly, malpractice doctors with degrees from fake unreliable hadith university should lose their license -- I prefer "the best" doctor from Qur'an university.
Peace