حَبلِ الوريد Perception and meanings; Vocal Cord.
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I believe freedom and independence are one and the same or rather mutually inclusive.
Why would God need angels as His body guards?As per traditional cursory religious beliefs, God created angels to obey and follow His commands while at the same time He created Satan and his body guards jinns in opposition. Isn't this why we have God and Satan, good and bad, love and hate, construct and destruct, ... and so forth? You've conveniently taken angels as an example to support your understanding of freedom and independence but forgot to consider all other aspects of nature, other creatures and everything that comes and goes around? Can you elaborate on this please without getting offended, as it seems an interesting topic of discussion? Thanks.
It depends. Freedom of what? Freedom of will has nothing to do with independance (relatively speaking).
Yes, why would "God need angels as His body guards"? In fact, why do you even percieve God as a humanlike figure?
As per traditional cursory religious beliefs, God created angels to obey and follow His commands while at the same time He created Satan and his body guards jinns in opposition. Isn't this why we have God and Satan, good and bad, love and hate, construct and destruct, ... and so forth? You've conveniently taken angels as an example to support your understanding of freedom and independence but forgot to consider all other aspects of nature, other creatures and everything that comes and goes around? Can you elaborate on this please without getting offended, as it seems an interesting topic of discussion? Thanks.
Interesting...
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It depends. Freedom of what? Freedom of will has nothing to do with independance (relatively speaking).
Likewise, "independence from what"? Relatively speaking, freedom and independence has the same connotations, however you look at it.Yes, why would "God need angels as His body guards"? In fact, why do you even percieve God as a humanlike figure?
Given the attributes of God, that's the question YOU need to answer, since such tales have been speculated via ancient belief systems and are written obtusely in "holy books", LOL!Interesting...
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Likewise, "independence from what"? Relatively speaking, freedom and independence has the same connotations, however you look at it.
Given the attributes of God, that's the question YOU need to answer, since such tales have been speculated via ancient belief systems and are written obtusely in "holy books", LOL!
)Freedom and independance are complements of each other, so of course. Not in some cases though.
As for the second, I don't need to answer. I have never seen "angels as his body guards" and I don't have such a vision. Remember that when God "speaks", he is not constrained by human language. When programs on your computer "speak" to each other, does that mean they are also humanlike?
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Freedom and independance are complements of each other, so of course. Not in some cases though.
Previously, you mentioned that "freedom of will" has nothing to do with independence and now you are alluding that freedom and independence complement each other but not in some cases. Can you provide examples of each to better understand your thought?As for the second, I don't need to answer. I have never seen "angels as his body guards" and I don't have such a vision. Remember that when God "speaks", he is not constrained by human language. When programs on your computer "speak" to each other, does that mean they are also humanlike?
OPF, you don't need to answer or simply don't know the answer? As per Quran, what do you think angels are or how do you "vision" them, that is, if you know the answer? -
Previously, you mentioned that "freedom of will" has nothing to do with independence and now you are alluding that freedom and independence complement each other but not in some cases. Can you provide examples of each to better understand your thought?
OPF, you don't need to answer or simply don't know the answer? As per Quran, what do you think angels are or how do you "vision" them, that is, if you know the answer?
It's subjective, semantics, etc.
Freedom of will = the right to choose whatever
Independance from a creator = having absolutely no need for the creator.Now, in the Quran, it gives full freedom of choice (rather, the choices), but no independance. Independance, I mean, by means of the sustenance provided by God as described in the Quran. It is purely impossible to be independant from the creator since we would ourselves have to either be the God, or a god, i.e. existing out of time (hence negating any percievable effect of a creator).
On the other hand, you have freedom of action, and that is tied to independance from a creator. I can't think of any good examples (yet).
As for the next, I have yet to come to a genuine understanding, so the best answer would be "I don't know". What I do know is that angels don't seem to be these sorts of humanoids or maybe even physical, or whatever. Given the descriptions in the Quran, these "beings" are far from "angels" (are we using the biblical perception?).
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Thanks for your understanding, OPF, that's more like it, appreciated.
It's subjective, semantics, etc.
Yes, I agree; lot of things are.Freedom of will = the right to choose whatever
Independance from a creator = having absolutely no need for the creator.
I believe that when one has freedom of will, for example to choose, then one is independent of thought, the very will to choose. If the option is restrained or restricted, then one is neither independent nor has the freedom. I've given some thought on these terms and therefore believe that both are relatively same. Atheists for example, do not believe in God, hence they are free from certain religious indoctrinations. Holy books contain both unimaginable and inapplicable conceptions (from ancient beliefs - confined) and as well as fundamental principles of natural existence (universal). I believe this is where human beings limit themselves and part company.Now, in the Quran, it gives full freedom of choice (rather, the choices), but no independance. Independance, I mean, by means of the sustenance provided by God as described in the Quran. It is purely impossible to be independant from the creator since we would ourselves have to either be the God, or a god, i.e. existing out of time (hence negating any percievable effect of a creator).
On the other hand, you have freedom of action, and that is tied to independance from a creator. I can't think of any good examples (yet).
Actually, the notion of God along with the strict reliance upon Quran (or holy books), negates both freedom and independency. On the contrary, I can only keep a subjective view of a Creator without drumbeating and not believe in "holy books" (or part thereof) and accomplish the same fundamental goals of living a realistic and meaningful life.As for the next, I have yet to come to a genuine understanding, so the best answer would be "I don't know". What I do know is that angels don't seem to be these sorts of humanoids or maybe even physical, or whatever. Given the descriptions in the Quran, these "beings" are far from "angels" (are we using the biblical perception?).
Thanks for being straightforward. You may want to read this link out entirely and let us know what your thoughts are http//www.feedback.nildram.co.uk/richardebbs/essays/angels.htm -
Greetings OPF,
On the other hand, you have freedom of action, and that is tied to independance from a creator. I can't think of any good examples (yet).
If I may....
Just think of the example of a parent and a child. The parent gives the child allowable parameters in which the child has a bit of freedom, yet not the freedom to go outside of those proscribed parameters.
Example
"Johnny, here is a box of coloured pencils and some drawing paper. You may use these tools to draw anything you like, for up to two hours, but once the time is up, you must stop working and put the pencils and paper neatly away."
Freedom and independence, contigency and necessity, all rolled into one.
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Quote from Mazhar on August 11, 2007, 015410 PM
erception and meanings; Ear has its own memory.I don't understand where this is coming from. Is the above Arabic
phrase from Al Qur'an?{Ilisa}This was a new topic
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http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/002.%20Meanings%20and%20Tabweeb%20of%20words/009.%20Ears%20that%20remember/09.%20Ear%20has%20its%20own%20memory.htmIt is from here
"So that We may make it a matter/message to be described, and it may be remembered by, an ear acting as receptacle for retaining"{Refer6912}
As for the discussion regarding the perception conveyed by ?freedom? and ?independence?, Brother OPF seems to have put it excellently as
It's subjective, semantics, etc.Freedom of will = the right to choose whatever
Independence from a creator = having absolutely no need for the creator.
The Quran has beautifully made the distinction between the two{Ref 3515} The Independent in Only One; the created is not independent; he enjoys freedom of action/decision not independently but in the given framework of things. Independence does not know restrictions imposed from outside. Anything dependent upon something or restricted by something gets out of the fold of being called or regarded as independent. Only he can be considered independent who is ??
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Anything dependent upon something or restricted by something gets out of the fold of being called or regarded as independent.
Greetings Mazhar,
We all know and understand (at least we should) that God alone is independent beyond any restrictions, etc. However, there are degrees of 'independence'. I do not see it as an 'either/or' situation and didn't realize that you were implying that freedom meant total freedom from a Creator. Mankind has been granted a degree of independence, but never independent from the one who created him.
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Dear Ilisa,
Agreed. I am trying a demarcation line between "freedom" and "independence"; this will help us reaize the difference between "thing, shain" and the "person, Ghair shain". "Shain" is further divided into one having freedom and the other tied by "taqdeer". "Freedom" is restricted to just one's will/decision/desire and beyond that one has nothing; beyond that everything is performed by someone else or under the will/desire of someone else. This is the reason we have been advised not to say that "I will do this and that tomorrow" but always add "InshaAllah" "If Allah so wills". Allah wants us to be always truthful in what we utter from our mouth. I say I will do this tomorrow. It is my will/decision/desire; it can't rise to the point of truth. And if tomorrow I cant do that, due to millions of possibilities, it will take me to the point of a liar. But if I had made it conditional, Allah willing, my utterence at the point of time I said it was truthful and even I could not not do it to prove my self truthful, I remain truthful since my statement was conditional/qualified. Truthul and liar is related only to what we say from our mouth. By asking us say "InshaAllah" Allah is not glorifying Himself, He wants us to be dignified.
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From the first translation and exegese of Grand Quran in any other language to the last translation and exegese in any language of the world verses 5016-18 were perceived with reference to jugular vein.
It is the first time on Free Mind Org that someone has said that Quran did not refer to Jugular vein.
It is strange that there is no input for my guidance/correction/improvement from Lexicon experts, linguists and experts of Classic Arabic whether what has been said is right or wrong. Should I understand that it is absolutely perfect and therefore find strength in my argument that all lexicons/opinions of classic arabic experts are merely minor sources of assistance since Quran has a built in system of defining and assigning meanings and perceptions to its words and concepts?
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Should I understand that it is absolutely perfect and therefore find strength in my argument that all lexicons/opinions of classic arabic experts are merely minor sources of assistance since Quran has a built in system of defining and assigning meanings and perceptions to its words and concepts?
Well, I'm not one of those experts, but I'd say that 'absolutely perfect' might be pushing it a bit; however I'd agree on your point about the Qur'an having it's own built in system. I would add that the Qur'an's system + creation, working together with 'inspired information' help us to understand definitions. -- For whatever my opinion is worth to you! -\
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Freedom of will = the right to choose whatever
Independence from a creator = having absolutely no need for the creator.
The relationship of freedom to independence in comparison must be similar and balanced. Considering "will" for freedom and "creator" for independence creates disimilarity and confusion. One can equally claim "freedom from creator", as in, "independent from creator" (atheists) OR vise versa (believers). On the contrary, for example, one has full liberty to choose which store one must go to in order to purchase a shirt, hence one is independent of such a choice and the freedom to choose but both the store and the shirts are in itself restrictive to freedom and independence. In absolute sense, living in our given realm of life, with or without imagining a "God", there is neither freedom nor independence. In other words, there's no free will.The Quran has beautifully made the distinction between the two
{Ref 3515} The Independent in Only One; the created is not independent; he enjoys freedom of action/decision not independently but in the given framework of things. Independence does not know restrictions imposed from outside. Anything dependent upon something or restricted by something gets out of the fold of being called or regarded as independent. Only he can be considered independent who is ??
Whether a person is independent or not, restrictions are ALWAYS imposed from both internal and external justifications, unless compared in similarity. For example, I am living all alone by myself in my own home. I have no one else to dictate or interfere in whatever I do, thereby I am independent and have the freedom from others to live my own life but at the same time I am restrictive and dependent upon my surrounding within the confines of my home. As mentioned above, in the absolute sense, there in neither freedom nor independence in totality. Besides, certain renderings and implications of Quran are not universal and neither current. -
Re Can it be proved that "Qiblatain" is an Arabic word?
? Reply #32 on July 19, 2007, 061117 PM ?Let's look at hablun now. We find hablun in other places in the Quran as a bond or treaty as well.
{In Muheet I have al-ribaatu (ribbon, band, ligament, ligature, bond, fetter, shackle), al-rasanu (halter) (kal-muhabbal) kamu&adh-dham (exalted, glorious, bony or ossified), ar-ramlu al-mustateelu (long stretched sand), al-&ahdu(pact or contract), al-dhimatu (custody, care, covenant of protection) al-amaanu (responsibility), athiqalu (heaviness, sluggishness,dullness), adaahiyatu (smart fellow, calamity, disaster), , al-wisaalu (uniting, connecting, sexual intercourse), atawaasulu (continuance, continuity), al-&aatiq (shoulder) aw atareeqatu allatee baina al&unuqu wa ra'sil-katifi (the path that is leads from the neck to the head of teh shoulder), aw a&sabatun baina al-&unuq wal-mankib (union tie bind btween the nick and the shoulder/side/flank) wa &irqun feedhiraa&i wa fee aldhahri (root, stem, vein in the arm and in the back).}
I haven't check lane but I'm sure you will find much under hablun. So clarifying hablu-l-wareed . It would also seem that hablul-wareedu is specifally a phrase for the jugular vein. It can have different meanings but this seems to be the most logical. I would say that the difficulty that Mazhar had is categorized under number 3
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3. Maybe your dictionary only has a few selected meanings, check different dictionaries.After reading the article at this link where Hablil warid is also visible to the eyes, can it be denied that it was the Quran which for the first time used this metaphor to give knowledge of something hidden in human body? All scinetific knowledge {physical sceinces} not visible for human eye is described by metaphors. If Lane and others translated this word as "Jugular vein" it was merely because of lack of knowledge/information and since he and others could not perceive anything else from Habal il warid they found the refuge in calling it a jugular vein to satisfy the reader. It is a composite word, comprising two independent words, but little was said about it gramatically. Dictionaries are therefore for elementary assistance, Quran itself shall explain its words and statements.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/002.%20Meanings%20and%20Tabweeb%20of%20words/007.%20Habalil%20Warid%20%20VOCAL%20CORD/07.%20Hablil%20Warid%20Vocal%20Cord.htm