Really?
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Peace to all,
Im sure God could misguide anyone at anytime if he wanted, but I think the Quran says that Satan asked God to be given respite for a period of time and it was granted, he then said that with Gods permission he will lead us all astray, and God allowed satan to try to do this, but he said you have no power over his believers and servants.
Kurt
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Peace Lobster,
The above verses say that god shows us messages in our dreams, and god makes a lot of men appear like few in battle. (I was told that no matter how I try to twist them, that's what they say...
Does god really send us special messages through real experiences or dreams?
Uh, yah! Didn't we talk about this just a little while ago? You sound surprised. -\To GOD belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth, and all matters are controlled by GOD.
This verse says that everything thing that happens is controlled by god.
Well, my question is, does god really control everything?
Yes all matters are controlled by GOD... not human actions though. We are responsible for what we do... the quran says that to. ) Again, I'm surprised, you're surprised... I'd expect this from a rookie, dude.Does god really randomly pick people to guide and misguide? Really?
Where does it say that- RANDOMLY. Come on man, stop putting your words in there and making it look like thats what quran said. It's simple, God guides all those who look to be guided, God does not guide those who don't want to be guided. You don't have to go too far in the quran to find answers...Chapter 2
2. This is the Scripture in which there is no doubt, a guide for the righteous.
3. Those who believe in the unseen, and honor the connection, and from Our provisions to them they spend.
4. And those who believe in what was sent down to you, and what was sent down before you, and regarding the Hereafter they are certain.
5. These are the ones guided by their Lord, and these are the winners.Does this sound like RANDOM pickings to you? ???
On the other hand...
Chapter 2
8. And from the people are those who say ?We believe in God and in the Last Day,? but they are not believers.
9. They seek to deceive God and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves without noticing.
10. In their hearts is a disease, so God increases their disease, and they will have a painful retribution for what they have denied.
11. And if they are told ?Do not make evil in the land,? they say ?But we are the reformers!?
12. No, they are the evildoers, but they do not perceive.
13. And if they are told ?Believe, as the people have believed,? they say ?Shall we believe as the fools have believed?? No, they are the fools but they do not know.
14. And if they come across those who have believed, they say ?We believe,? and when they are alone with their devils they say ?We are with you, we were only mocking.?
15. God mocks them, and leaves them prolonged in their transgression.
16. These are the ones who have purchased straying for guidance; their trade did not profit them, nor were they guided. -
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How can God guide a people who have rejected after believing, and they witnessed that the messenger is true, and the clarity had come to them? God does not guide the wicked people.
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And how can you reject when God?s revelations are being recited to you and with you is His messenger? And whoever holds firmly to God has been guided to the straight path.
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A group He has guided and a group have deserved misguidance; that is because they have taken the devils as allies besides God; and they think they are guided!
Note When people go to heaven they will say this;
?Praise be to God who has guided us to this, and we would not have been guided unless God guided us. The messengers of our Lord had come with truth.? And it was called to them ?This is Paradise; you have inherited it for what you have done.?If you find anywhere in the quran that people who go to hell will claim God misguided them and led them to hell, please let me know.
Peace!
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peace
Okay, the quran doesn't say randomly. Apologies.
But this is what I'm saying If it's not random, then god isn't doing it at all, it's us. We're the ones making the decision to be guided or not, then aren't we? Especially if human actions are not controlled by god.
It's like god's guidance is always there, but we're the ones who have to see it and accept it. Some of us do, and others don't.
So what exactly is it saying?
And the quran says that god controls all matters, but then it says that the sun and moon and stars all obey god...like they have free-will.
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But this is what I'm saying If it's not random, then god isn't doing it at all, it's us.
It's like god's guidance is always there, but we're the ones who have to see it and accept it. Some of us do, and others don't.
Listen to what you're saying, Lobster. You're trying (hard) to drive a point, so you're coming up with with state,emts like these. You make it sound like God built this guidance system, and left the building, and so we just have to use it, or not, while it's just sitting there.God is (actively) guiding us, atleast those who strive to be, not the wicked, the rejecters or the unbelievers. Remember, if God does not guide us, we cannot find a way.
Peace.
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peace zenje,
I make it sound like that because that's what I think. I think god has built the building, and it's up to us whether we use it or not. If we use it, then god is guiding us because god is the one who built the building....right?
Can god guide directly without controlling human thoughts/actions?
Same thing with the quran right? It was written and left for future generations to use it or not use it.I think that god has put a system in place (or maybe god is the system?) and that system is what guides us.
Maybe it's just my limited experience, but I've never felt like there was someone or something out there guiding me directly.
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Peace Lobster,
I don't think god has a freewill in the sense of having personal preferences comparable to the human "I like chocolate, but hate vanilla", and being affected by them. What drives freewill is the agent's liking and disliking. I cannot imagine the god having such desires, how then can the god be an agent of free will? God has untainted consciousness. Which is so much more.
Therefore, god doesn't pick and choose (=exercise freewill) randomly whom to do what with. There is not a separate standard for each of us, but a single standard that apply to us all. When it is said "God dislikes ... " it is said in the context of man's relation to god. The ricochet effect on an individual indulging in what god dislikes is defined by the standard already laid down, and it would appear to an observer that god had a grudge against the offender. There is no grudge though. Imagine, the all-powerful being bothered by what compares to him as a quark compares to a man. How ridiculous!
Even ourselves, do we care when a single of our 70 trillion trillion cells malfunction? Do we even notice? Yet, the malfunctioning cell is quickly removed as a result of the standard inherent in our body.
These are my thoughts. I hope they were relevant.
If you reject, then know that God is in no need of you, and He dislikes rejection for His servants.
And if you are appreciative, He is pleased for you ...Nadeem
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Peace Lobster,
Can god guide directly without controlling human thoughts/actions?
Yes.Same thing with the quran right? It was written and left for future generations to use it or not use it.
Not the same thing.Maybe it's just my limited experience, but I've never felt like there was someone or something out there guiding me directly.
Maybe.I think that god has put a system in place (or maybe god is the system?) and that system is what guides us.
God has given us a system, yes. The system is not provides guidance, God does.Why are you desperately trying to remove God from the euqation? Think about it first.
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Peace lobster,
843 Lo! God showed them to thee in a dream as few for, had He shown them to you as many, you would surely have lost heart, and would surely have disagreed with one another about what to do. But God saved verily, He has full knowledge of what is the hearts .
844 And so, when you met in battle, He made them appear as few in your eyes -just as He made you appear as of little account in their eyes - so that God might accomplish a thing to be done for all things go back to God .does god really control everything? Does god really send us special messages through real experiences or dreams? Does god really randomly pick people to guide and misguide? Really?
Regarding the first quote, I believe it's in regard to attributes such as bravery, strength, courage, confidence, and fearlessness. True believers do not fear men. They carry on with the conviction of having God's support. So an army of 10,000 would look like nothing to them. When you believe wholeheartedly, and you are sure that what you're doing is the right thing, then you have tapped into the divine resource - and nothing seems impossible.
This, then, ties into your question and illustrates that it is not random at all. It is a process of refinement and attunement that opens the door to the divine resource to flow through you.
But how do we refine and become in tune?
Peace,
Tay -
668 And if you encounter those who make fun of Our revelations, then turn away from them until they move on to a different topic; and if the devil lets you forget, then do not sit after remembering with the wicked people.
669 And the righteous are not required to take responsibility for them, but a reminder so perhaps they will be aware.
7164 And a nation from amongst them said "Why do you preach to a people whom God will destroy or punish a painful retribution?" They said "A plea to your Lord, and perhaps they may be aware."
2846 And nor were you on the side of the mount when We called. But it is a mercy from your Lord, so that you may warn a people who received no warner before you, perhaps they may take heed.
Doesn't God know what they are going to choose? Yet they are still given a chance
2847 Thus, if any disaster strikes them as a consequence of their own deeds they cannot Say "Our Lord, if only You sent a messenger to us, so that we would follow Your revelations, and we would be of the believers."
122 We have sent it down an Arabic compilation, perhaps you will comprehend.
2043 "Go, both of you, to Pharaoh, for he has transgressed."
2044 "So say to him soft words, perhaps he will remember or take heed."Again God knew Pharoah would reject, yet he still was given a chance
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peace zenje,
I make it sound like that because that's what I think. I think god has built the building, and it's up to us whether we use it or not. If we use it, then god is guiding us because god is the one who built the building....right?
Can god guide directly without controlling human thoughts/actions?
Same thing with the quran right? It was written and left for future generations to use it or not use it.I think that god has put a system in place (or maybe god is the system?) and that system is what guides us.
Maybe it's just my limited experience, but I've never felt like there was someone or something out there guiding me directly.
God is not a man in the sky and God is not "active".
What do I mean by active? Human-like. Existing within time. Does it make sense to you that the creator of time changes his mind, an act that can only happen with time? I think this sort of illogic makes people turn away from God and become atheist/agnostic.
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Peace OPF,
God is not a man in the sky and God is not "active".
What do I mean by active? Human-like. Existing within time. Does it make sense to you that the creator of time changes his mind, an act that can only happen with time? I think this sort of illogic makes people turn away from God and become atheist/agnostic.
Err.. that's not what I meant by active. ??? And... what "illogic" are you talking about? Clarify please.
Changes his mind? confused
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Peace OPF,Err.. that's not what I meant by active. ??? And... what "illogic" are you talking about? Clarify please.
Changes his mind? confused
It wasn't addressed to you )
Basically, though, it still stands. By "passive", I mean acting all at once, negating time, or if God was a set of laws/the applier of (important to not get the God confused with his creation). In other words, treating God as a man in the sky who likes to change his mind - poor. Just poor.
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God has sexual organs but he never procreates brickwall brickwall brickwall
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No idea Tay, but this is fun.
Nadeem say
I don't think god has a freewill in the sense of having personal preferences comparable to the human "I like chocolate, but hate vanilla", and being affected by them. What drives freewill is the agent's liking and disliking. I cannot imagine the god having such desires, how then can the god be an agent of free will? God has untainted consciousness. Which is so much more.
Therefore, god doesn't pick and choose (=exercise freewill) randomly whom to do what with. There is not a separate standard for each of us, but a single standard that apply to us all. When it is said "God dislikes ... " it is said in the context of man's relation to god. The ricochet effect on an individual indulging in what god dislikes is defined by the standard already laid down, and it would appear to an observer that god had a grudge against the offender. There is no grudge though. Imagine, the all-powerful being bothered by what compares to him as a quark compares to a man. How ridiculous!
Even ourselves, do we care when a single of our 70 trillion trillion cells malfunction? Do we even notice? Yet, the malfunctioning cell is quickly removed as a result of the standard inherent in our body.
These are my thoughts. I hope they were relevant.
I agree. That standard is what I would call "the system."
Zenje say
God has given us a system, yes. The system is not provides guidance, God does.
Why are you desperately trying to remove God from the euqation? Think about it first.
God provides guidance through the system. I can't see any other way.
I'm not trying to remove god out of the equation, I'm trying to understand where god fits in that equation.Tay say
Regarding the first quote, I believe it's in regard to attributes such as bravery, strength, courage, confidence, and fearlessness. True believers do not fear men. They carry on with the conviction of having God's support. So an army of 10,000 would look like nothing to them. When you believe wholeheartedly, and you are sure that what you're doing is the right thing, then you have tapped into the divine resource - and nothing seems impossible.
That is also my interpretation of it.
But how do we refine and become in tune?
I guess that's what salat is for...
See, this is what I'm thinking We are told to believe in god, to trust in god, but the thing is that things don't change all by themselves, we have to do things our selves, bring about changes ourselves, no one does it for us.
We are told to believe in ourselves, to trust in ourselves. And that's what those verses say too, if we have self-belief, a large army will be like a small one.
So does self=god??? I think there's a connection here.OPF say
What do I mean by active? Human-like. Existing within time. Does it make sense to you that the creator of time changes his mind, an act that can only happen with time? I think this sort of illogic makes people turn away from God and become atheist/agnostic.
God is not human-like. But god can "change his mind" so to speak. People change, their actions change, and their future changes with it.
peace peace