My version of "The Message" contains mistakes?
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As salamu aleikum.
I just found something confusing in the version of "The Message" I hold in my hands. It is from 2003.2158 The Camel and Goat heavy with milk are amongst God's decrees. So whosoever makes Pilgrimage to the sanctuary, or is merely passing through, commits no error that he should partake of them. And whoever donates for goodness, then God is Appreciative, Knowledgeable.
This I have handtyped from my version. I will copy paste the version from the net
2158 The Safa and Marwah are amongst God's symbols. So whosoever makes Pilgrimage to the Sanctuary, or is merely passing through, commits no error that he should traverse within them. And whoever donates for goodness, then God is Appreciative, Knowledgeable.
So, just to keep it plain and simple.. Is their any other mistakes like this in my version that any of u have knowledge of? I rather hold a book in my hand, than reading from a screen
As salamu aleikum
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Those aren't mistakes, but different translations. I think you should get a few dictionaries/lexicons (online works enough for me) and a little knowledge of Arabic, it'll make mistakes and different translations apparent.
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???
2158 Inna alssafa waalmarwata min shaAAairi Allahi faman hajja albayta awi iAAtamara fala junaha AAalayhi an yattawwafa bihima waman tatawwaAAa khayran fainna Allaha shakirun AAaleemun
2158 Behold! Safa and Marwa are among the Symbols of Allah. So if those who visit the House in the Season or at other times, should compass them round, it is no sin in them. And if any one obeyeth his own impulse to good,- be sure that Allah is He Who recogniseth and knoweth.
from http//www.islamicity.com/MOSQUE/ARABICSCRIPT/AYAT/2/2_158.htm
I did a bit research, and have concluded that it seems like a mistake. I dont under stand how the first line can be translated into Camel Goat and milk etc. thats some major translation difference then..
Can u speak arabic? If so pls try translate it for me, eventhough it might differ from the original, I wanna se how it would come out with the arabic spoken nowadays, I doubt that it would differ so much as it does here.
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peace,
The problem is that the online translation is more up to date in terms of the translator(s) thinking. The book represents an older translation.
The Message, like all other translations is imperfect and will contain mistakes.
I strongly recommend taking your time to study and verify the translation you are using see www.studyquran.org
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aah ok! Thank you very much!
Is their any list with the changes I can go through? would be much easier for me, instead of keep reading two versions to protect myself from reading something not accurate. If their isnt I dont even dare to keep reading my version, I found the "mistake" by coincident. -
Sorry, I didn't check before posting. In Wakas's root list, the meaning for safa is there as "one laden with milk" (I'll take the established meaning anyway)
= Sad-Fa-Waw = it became clear/limpid/pure (often said of a drink), opposite of Kaf-Dal-Ra, free from turbidness/thickness/muddiness, free from admixture, became cloudless (said of air/atmosphere, but also said of love/life/mind/heart), clear/pure/best/choice/favoured part/potion, clear/clarify, true/sincere, distinguish particularly/specially, select/elect/prefer, serenity of life, comfort, reciprocal sincerity/purity.
take the best of, to choose in preference to, grant to another a preference in the choice of anything.
abound with milk (said of a she-camel/ewe/goat/sheep), palm-tree heavy with fruit,
reached stone (said of a digger).
the portion of the spoil, which the chief/commander chooses for himself before the division.
become destitute/devoid.
stone, smooth stone/rock, stone that doesn't give growth to anything, hard broad stone, a certain place in Mekkeh.I take everything pertaining to the ka'bah/hajj with a spoon of salt, sorry.
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Peace Kensho,
- The camel and the sheep that give a lot of milk (safa) and the stone on which they are cooked/slaughtered (marwah) are from what The God makes us aware with (sha3air) so whomever visits the house or maintains there is no blame on him if he passes by/partakes (yattawwafa) in them and whoever does good voluntarily, then The God is Appreciative, Knowledgeable.
Please see the following discussions on the translation of 2158
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7615.msg122881#msg122881
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.0
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Salam,
I would not say that the version you hold is incorrect, rather, it reflects certain understandings which are still correct when reviewed against the Arabic language.
The on-line is the most current translation/understanding. You would do best to note down the verses that require investigation and then compare them to the on-line as well as to various other translations (or simply open a topic on the subject if you believe all the translations on a subject are wrong - which happens sometimes).
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Peace Kensho,
- The camel and the sheep that give a lot of milk (safa) and the stone on which they are cooked/slaughtered (marwah) are from what The God makes us aware with (sha3air) so whomever visits the house or maintains there is no blame on him if he passes by/partakes (yattawwafa) in them and whoever does good voluntarily, then The God is Appreciative, Knowledgeable.
Please see the following discussions on the translation of 2158
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7615.msg122881#msg122881
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.0
Peace
Can you please give some authenticated reference for these underlined translation??
Can you please throw light why and are ?
Just waiting for your scholarly comments on these reservation. -
Peace Leoxyz,
It appears that you have not bothered to read the thread quoted in my post discussing the translation of 2158.
In 2458 we hear about "tawwafoona"; does that mean compass around/spin around each other in 2458 ?
If words derived from the root TWF mean "compass around/circumambulate" as used in the Qur'aan, then people are supposed to circumabulate (tawwafoona) each other according to 2458, and the cups, dishes, round vessels of silver, and goblets of gold and crystal will "circumambulate" (taafu) the people in heaven according to 3745, 4371, and 7615, and youths will "circumambulate" (toofu) those people according to 5224, 5617, and 7619, and the people in hell will "circumambulate" (toofoona) the boiling hot water per 5544, and wind "circumambulated" (taafa) the farms per 6819.
I would suggest you to look up those words in an authentic Classical Arabic dictionary, and then see which meaning fits in the relevant signs according to their context.
This is my last comment to your arrogant and sarcastic posts in this thread unless you have something useful and positive to contribute.
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Peace Leoxyz,
It appears that you have not bothered to read the thread quoted in my post discussing the translation of 2158.
In 2458 we hear about "tawwafoona"; does that mean compass around/spin around each other in 2458 ?
If words derived from the root TWF mean "compass around/circumambulate" as used in the Qur'aan, then people are supposed to circumabulate (tawwafoona) each other according to 2458, and the cups, dishes, round vessels of silver, and goblets of gold and crystal will "circumambulate" (taafu) the people in heaven according to 3745, 4371, and 7615, and youths will "circumambulate" (toofu) those people according to 5224, 5617, and 7619, and the people in hell will "circumambulate" (toofoona) the boiling hot water per 5544, and wind "circumambulated" (taafa) the farms per 6819.
I would suggest you to look up those words in an authentic Classical Arabic dictionary, and then see which meaning fits in the relevant signs according to their context.
This is my last comment to your arrogant and sarcastic posts in this thread unless you have something useful and positive to contribute.
Peace
Dear Tanveer;
First of all I apologize if you have felt any arrogance in my posts. Actually this reaction was mixture of surprise and annoyance because of ODD interpretations placed by Quran Lovers from whom I was expecting very intelligent and knowledgeful discussion.Though you have not answered my question about "Assafaa" and Al ?marwa",yet anyway I feel it that you have placed some thing which is positively considerable.
Now coming to your word ROOTS
(,, ) ( ن
The derivatives of these roots are used 40 times in the Holy Quran .
Among themis used once
Most of derivatives are Triltiteral and primitive verbs but a few are "Derived Verbs" .
The Ayas which you have referred to I putting exact Ayas below-
3745
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4371
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7615
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5224
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5617
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7619
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5544
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6819
Among them First three are using the Derived verbs from Baab ( ) while rest of 5 are from Primitive verb from Baab ( )
While our Aya under discussion is as follows
2158
The word used over here is from Baab ( ) and same derivative is used in another aya
2229
As far their meaning is concerned ,All dictionaries of the classical Arabic have consensus in the meaning of this roots except Lane's Lexicon which differs partially but ultimately he derives the same result. (I will mention it )
But before moving to the discussion one should be very clear that- Roots meanings are very important
- These meanings are always present in some sense of derivatives unless it has non ? logical meaning (which is not based on the root meaning)
- In derived verbs ,every baab has its own properties which Grammar Books discuss very elaboratively .So with these properties Shades of meaning are changed a little bit .
ROOT MEANING
The authority I am referring to "Maqabees ul Lugha which is referred by CH. G.A Pervaiz (Head of Quran Lover Group) very often in his "Lughat Ul Quran .
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Maqaabees ul Lugha by Ibne Faaris
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(ف
Second Authority
A favorite book for all commentators and Lexicologists (including G.A Pervaiz )
Mufradaat ul Quran by Raghib -
. . } { } {
Now coming to other classical work
Mujaamul Wasit
( )
Al misbah ul Munir
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( 9 / 225)
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( 1 / 5997)
All of these authorities agree that when word "Taafaa " is followed by preposition
- Bi ( )
- Fi ( )
- Alaa ( )
- Haula ( )
Then it means "CIRCUMAMBULATE, GO AROUND SOMETHING.
With these prepositions same meaning as that of other dictionaries (verify by logging on PRL) is taken up by Lane's Lexicon.
All of your quoted Ayas ,do contain these Preposition except one which is Aya number 7 above.
According to Lane without these preposition it may mean "walking" or going".
In case some preposition is used with some verb
then these prepositions cannot be separated from the verb exactly in the in the same way as you cannot do this in English .Like" Break" ,then "Break out" ,"Break into " Break up" etc.
If preposition is used along with some Verb then taking only the meanings of the Verb is not technically correct .We have taken the meaning of
Verb + Preposition together.
Hope it helps
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Peace Leoxyz,
Thank you for the detailed explanation and drawing my attention to the incorrect translation of "yattawwafa bihima" in my earlier post. May The God reward you.
All of these authorities agree that when word "Taafaa " is followed by preposition
- Bi ( )
- Fi ( )
- Alaa ( )
- Haula ( )
Then it means "CIRCUMAMBULATE, GO AROUND SOMETHING.
That is partially true as per my research.
When "taafa" is followed by "bi" or "3alaa", it can also mean "to visit"/"to come to"/"to approach"/"to draw/become near" or "to go round about among" i.e. intermingle. For example
ATAAFA BIHI/ALAIHI = He came to him or visited him; he approached him; he drew, or was, or became near to him (synonymous with "ALAMMA BIHI/ALAIHI" and "QAARABAHU"
TAAFA BINNISAA = He came to women; he visited the women.
TAAFA BILQAWMI = He went round about among the people/party i.e. he intermingled with them.
If it says "taafa bi 3alaa", then it can mean "go around"; for example "tuftu bihi 3alaa al-bayti" meaning "I went round the house".
REFERENCE Lane Lexicon.
In 2158 we hear "yattawwafa bihima", and according to the context the most appropriate meaning would be "he visits them/comes to them/approaches them/becomes near to them".
Similarly in 2229, "yattawwafoo bi al-bayti" would mean "they visit/come to/approach/draw near the house" according to the context.
In 2458, "tawwafoona alaykum" would mean "they intermingle with you"/"they go round about among you" according to the context.
Walking around/circumambulating will not make any sense in those signs and other similar signs.
Please go through the thread referenced in my post above for discussion on the meaning of "al-safaa" and "al-marwata" and the references.
The revised translation of 2158 after the appropriate correction would be
- The camel and the sheep that give a lot of milk (al-safa) and the stone on which they are cooked/slaughtered (al-marwata) are from what The God makes us aware with (sha3air) so whomever visits the house or maintains there is no blame on him if he comes to/approaches/draws near them (yattawwafa bihima) and whoever does good voluntarily, then The God is Appreciative, Knowledgeable.
This is my last comment on this issue unless something new turns up.
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Peace Leoxyz,
Thank you for the detailed explanation and drawing my attention to the incorrect translation of "yattawwafa bihima" in my earlier post. May The God reward you.
That is partially true as per my research.
When "taafa" is followed by "bi" or "3alaa", it can also mean "to visit"/"to come to"/"to approach"/"to draw/become near" or "to go round about among" i.e. intermingle. For example
ATAAFA BIHI/ALAIHI = He came to him or visited him; he approached him; he drew, or was, or became near to him (synonymous with "ALAMMA BIHI/ALAIHI" and "QAARABAHU"
TAAFA BINNISAA = He came to women; he visited the women.
TAAFA BILQAWMI = He went round about among the people/party i.e. he intermingled with them.
If it says "taafa bi 3alaa", then it can mean "go around"; for example "tuftu bihi 3alaa al-bayti" meaning "I went round the house".
REFERENCE Lane Lexicon.
In 2158 we hear "yattawwafa bihima", and according to the context the most appropriate meaning would be "he visits them/comes to them/approaches them/becomes near to them".
Similarly in 2229, "yattawwafoo bi al-bayti" would mean "they visit/come to/approach/draw near the house" according to the context.
In 2458, "tawwafoona alaykum" would mean "they intermingle with you"/"they go round about among you" according to the context.
Walking around/circumambulating will not make any sense in those signs and other similar signs.
Please go through the thread referenced in my post above for discussion on the meaning of "al-safaa" and "al-marwata" and the references.
The revised translation of 2158 after the appropriate correction would be
- The camel and the sheep that give a lot of milk (al-safa) and the stone on which they are cooked/slaughtered (al-marwata) are from what The God makes us aware with (sha3air) so whomever visits the house or maintains there is no blame on him if he comes to/approaches/draws near them (yattawwafa bihima) and whoever does good voluntarily, then The God is Appreciative, Knowledgeable.
This is my last comment on this issue unless something new turns up.
Dear Tanveer;
I appreciate your effort.But here again you have comitted a mistake (Blunder)
The Ayaat which you gave and I put their text in my Previous post which I am going to copy pasteNow coming to your word ROOTS
(,, ) ( ن
The derivatives of these roots are used 40 times in the Holy Quran .
Among themis used once
Most of derivatives are Triltiteral and primitive verbs but a few are "Derived Verbs" .
The Ayas which you have referred to I putting exact Ayas below-
3745
-
4371
-
7615
-
5224
-
5617
-
7619
-
5544
-
6819
Among them First three are using the Derived verbs from Baab ( ) while rest of 5 are from Primitive verb from Baab ( )
While our Aya under discussion is as follows
2158
The word used over here is from Baab ( ) and same derivative is used in another aya
2229In these Ayaat the Baabs used are
1Nasara /yansuru
2Tafeel
3Tafaaul
I have clearly pointed out in my postBut you have looked in the Lane's lexicon in Baab "Ifaal"
Honestly speaking ,unless you do not the Arabic grammar Properly ,you cannot consult the Arabic dictionary.I have noticed it is your third or fourth post in which you are comitting such mistakes.I do not question your sincerity/effort.But you open the Lane's lexicon ,and see which material suites your ideas and starts running after it. Arabic dictionaries are not like English or Urdu dictionaries.The correct method is
-First know the roots
-Then see if it is being used in 'Primitive Baabs" or Derived forms
-Then accordingly look for it.
In none of the above quoted Ayaat this verb is used in "Ifaal" derived form.How can you get the correct meaning?3617
(3617) and our only responsibility is to convey the message plainly"
