only men are addresses

Samia

Nun, Thanks for your response.

PROBLEM 1

For the sake of discussion the author of the book could have used following three options.

1- If you have been in touch with women (actual one used)
2- If you have been in touch with spouses
3- If you men who have been in touch with women, and you women you have been in touch with men.

PROBLEM 2

Lets say option 1 is the best one for whatever reason. Then the problem is that women does not require an abolution after touching men. We cannot just assume the same instructions for women if Quran is only talking to men. God did not run out of words.

Salaam Explorer

You suggest a sociolinguistic rule, whereas the quraan has its own sociolinguistic rules, which is when an address is for the generic male, the feminine it entails is a generic feminine. In other words, the feminie is only totally specific if it is the addressee.

And yes, God did not run out of words, but He knows many people will run away from a double-size book full of repetition. As relatively small as it is, yet people still don't have time to read it..How if it becomes doubled in size with no new material but repetition?

explorer

one more thing
i think 2223 is directed to men saying not to think of your wives as a sex object, they should be respected, there would be no purpose to also direct this to women too

2223Your women are the bearers of your seed. Thus, you may enjoy this privilege however you like, so long as you maintain righteousness. You shall observe GOD, and know that you will meet Him. Give good news to the believers.

Thanks for you time. Your point makes sense for this verse.

I still contemplating on previous post.

explorer

You suggest a sociolinguistic rule, whereas the quraan has its own sociolinguistic rules, which is when an address is for the generic male, the feminine it entails is a generic feminine. In other words, the feminie is only totally specific if it is the addressee.

Saima, peace be with you as well.

I am trying to understand your response.

Do you mean to say that according to Quranic sociolinguistic rules, following is true?

"if you touch women ..." means "if you touch spouses ..."

Please explain. Your reply seems interesting but I am unable to comprehend it completely. Thanks.

Samia

Saima, peace be with you as well.

I am trying to understand your response.

Do you mean to say that according to Quranic sociolinguistic rules, following is true?

"if you touch women ..." means "if you touch spouses ..."

Please explain. Your reply seems interesting but I am unable to comprehend it completely. Thanks.

Salaam Explorer

You may just say it means "the opposite sex".
If the addresse is generic male and it entails a generic female, then when you change the addressee to the feminine, it entails a masculine (opposite genders).

siki

explorer

your objections are very pertinent, and i guess there is more to it than what is being understood, everone's explanation is less than perfect.

The way you have gone about tackling this issue, i guess you are the one who has some chance to solve this , so go ahead and brain storm , me too, very interested in improving upon this, and inshall ah we will shall thrash this out.

till now it looks as if , "if the women are touched", (only, not made love to) then probably they do not become eligible for that clause.

siki

siki

one reason i can think of is ,

The use of word women was appropriate, because , the women who are touched sexually, are not always spouses , parteners etc.

However, Nun's explanation of "Lamastum un nissa" , as a phrase, conveying a certain meaning, does carry some merit.

siki

explorer

Salaam Explorer

You may just say it means "the opposite sex".
If the addresse is generic male and it entails a generic female, then when you change the addressee to the feminine, it entails a masculine (opposite genders).

Saima, peace be with you.

1- Could you please provide examples from Quran or other Arabic text to support your argument.
2- Are you an Arab? Is this a normal usage in Arabic.

explorer

I am reading the word to word translation of the two verses again and again. It is very clear that only men are addressed (if nissa = women). I have tried looking at it from every angle and it is not making sense to me.

http//www.quraninenglish.com/cgi-local/pages.pl?/quran&img=322
http//www.quraninenglish.com/cgi-local/pages.pl?/quran&img=408

There has to be some explanation to this. Why dry ablution instructions are only addressed to men.

Any one?

reilly654

peace

maybe this can help

maybe women are mentioned here and since they have courses and men do not, on a regular basis they have to deal with that area while usually men dont, since it says here for women to keep pure and not men, 443 is now telling men how to keep "pure"

2222 AND THEY will ask thee about courses. Say "It is a vulnerable condition. Keep, therefore, aloof from women during their monthly courses, and do not draw near unto them until they are cleansed; and when they are cleansed, go in unto them as God has bidden you to do." Verily, God loves those who turn unto Him in repentance and He loves those who keep themselves pure.

so the verses your having a problem with tell men to when they excrete they have to, at least spirtually/dry, cleanse themselves too

also i dont like that translation
but hopefully you can get the point of what im trying to say

unknownuser

Peace explorer,

al-Ahzab (The Clans, The Coalition, The Combined Forces, The Allies) 3349
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/33/49/

Literal You, you those who believed, if you married the believers (F) then you divorced/freed them (F) from before that you touch them (F), so (there is) no term/counting (no waiting period) you count it, so give them alimony, and divorce/release them (F) beautifully divorce/release.

al-Baqarah (The Cow) 2187
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/2/187/

LiteralIt) became/is permitted/allowed to you (the) night of the fasting the obscenity/ indecency (intercourse), to your women (wives), they are (F) a cover/wives to you and you are a cover/husbands tothem (F), God knew that you were betraying/being unfaithful (to) yourselves, so He forgave on you, and He forgave/pardoned on you, so now touch their (F) outer skin , and desire (seek) what God has written/dictated for you, and eat and drink until the thread the white appears from the thread the black from the dawn , then complete the fasting to the night and do not touch their outer skin (while) you are devoting in the mosques/places of worshipping God. Those are God's limits/orders , so do not approach/near it, like that God clarifies His verses/evidences to the people, maybe they fear and obey (God).

Therefore, within context, the phrase ?touching women? is proxy for ?making love? stipulating a female participant.

As to why the phrase ?touch spouse/companion? would not be used; as siki mentioned, it nulls alternatives (e.g. pre/extra-marital sex, etc.) and even though forbidden, the rite should still be performed.

Hope that makes sense.

Mazhar

O You people {group is addressed and a group comprises of men and women} who claim to have believed! Do not go for prayers when you are in a disturbed/foggy state of mind till such time you know what you are saying;

And do not go for prayers when you are in a state after intercourse {this is association of a man and woman, both included} till such time you people have taken bath;

is a state of mind which disturbs faculty of remaining mindful of one?s utterances.

is not mere sex which is a wide and vague term, sex includes foreplay {or just play}, kissing, touching etc. This word has been defined by Quran as exclusively referring to physical intercourse, entrance of male genitalia into the female genitalia. Both man who entered and the woman who got entered are .

And if you people are suffering from some disease or in journey or any one has come from call of nature or you men have penetrated genitalia into women;

does not mean sex; it means entering the genitalia into women?s genitalia. And this act is never described conversely in any language of the world, except Madonna?s dirty dialogue in a movie.

The instruction is very simple and nakedly described so that none could interpret it otherwise or get confused.

Samia

Saima, peace be with you.

1- Could you please provide examples from Quran or other Arabic text to support your argument.
2- Are you an Arab? Is this a normal usage in Arabic.

Salaam explorer

1- Arabic language does not support this trait of sociolinguistics. In Arabic you can't find this rule of sociolinguistics. I consider it specific to the qur'aan.

Nor would you be able to write, in Arabic, a text like this (6610-12) " God sets an example fr those who disbelieve (allatheen kafaruu plural masculine) the wife of Noah and the wife of Lut....." ... "and God set forth an example for those who believe (masculine plural allatheena aamanuu) the wife of pharaoh...." .."and Maryam the daughter of Imraan..." without giving an example from each gender at least. Here we have two examples of each category, and both examples are women. This is a strong reminder that whenever the qur'aan speaks of believers or unbelievers, or for such of any masculine plural, we should take it as generic masculine and consider that it contains women equally (unless explicitely proven otherwise).

Yes, I am an Arab.

siki

Peace Mazhar

A good effort , however i tend to differ with two of your explanations.

junabba, is not intercourse , but a state after intercourse, or after discharge of semen in or on a woman , or an independent discharge of semen for a man through some means (may be masterbation) which makes bathing necessary for both, (and in the last situation only for man). And if they do not take a bath, they remain in a state of junabba.

The ayat says, that if a believer is in a state of junaba, he/she is forbidden to salat, till the time they take a bath, and in this case , if they do not find water to take a bath , they should not salat , exactly like "sukkara" situation.

lamastamum un nissa , is not intercourse, or penetration of male sexual organ into a female sexual organ.

What you are saying, is precisely described in 4-23 by the word "Dakhaltum," or entry, when God wanted to describe the exact parameter for making a step daughter Haram for ever, The ayat says!

If you have entered a women (Dakhaltum) then, touching her daughter is incest, and hence Haram for ever, but if you have not penetrated the mother yet , and you have a change of mind , you can still alter your plans and go for the daughter, and thus makes the daughter Hallal and non incestous before sexual penetration of her mother.

lamatamum un nissa is sexual touchings which does not culminate into a sexual entry or discharge of semen into or on a woman.
In above case ablution (only) is necessary before praying, and this condition is rated along journeying , sickness or call of nature, which are less than clean conditions, and necessitate an ablution with water, and if one does not find water , still some sort of cleansing with dry soil is advised.

So wadu is,

Every time before salat, if one finds water.

No water, but those 4 conditions are not there , one can perform salat without ablution

if one has gone through one of those 4 conditions , and finds no water , "tayyamam" with clean dry soil is necessary before salat.

In a state of junaba , bath is necessary, and if one can't take a bath due to any reason then , NO SALAT.

Above are the results of my detailed study on the relevent verses some while ago.

siki

Mazhar

junabba, is not intercourse , but a state after intercourse{Siki}

Exactly same thing was said in the translation of Ayah

And do not go for prayers when you are in a state after intercourse {Mazhar}

lamastamum un nissa , is not intercourse, or penetration of male sexual organ into a female sexual organ.

What you are saying, is precisely described in 4-23 by the word "Dakhaltum," or entry, when God wanted to describe the exact parameter for making a step daughter Haram for ever, The ayat says!

If you have entered a women (Dakhaltum) then her daughter is Haram for ever, but if you have not penetrated the mother yet , and you have a change of mind , you can still alter your plans and go for the daughter, and thus makes the daughter Hallal and non incestous before penetraion of a woman.

lamatamum un nissa is sexual touchings which does not culminate into a sexual entry or discharge of semen into or on a woman.{Siki}

?lamastamum un nissa? has only one meaning and that is Dakhaltum. If this act had not been done with a wife then her daughter from earlier husband is permissible for marriage. And this can happen only if that woman with whom man had not done that act had been divorced. It means her mother was divorced without ?Dakhool?. What is ?Dakhool?? It is ?lamastamum?. Please read 2236.

explorer

Mazhar, Siki

The same word "lamasa" has been used at two other places as well with the meaning of "touch" 67, 728

006.007
KHALIFA Even if we sent down to them a physical book, written on paper, and they touched it with their hands, those who disbelieved would have said, "This is no more than clever magic."

072.008
KHALIFA " `We touched the heaven and found it filled with formidable guards and projectiles.

"iltamasa" has been used in 5713 with the meaning of "seek".

5713
KHALIFA On that day, the hypocrite men and women will say to those who believed, "Please allow us to absorb some of your light." It will be said, "Go back behind you, and seek light." A barrier will be set up between them, whose gate separates mercy on the inner side, from retribution on the outer side.

Having said that shouldn't this word then mean "touching" in verses 443 and 56 as well.

If both junabba and lamasa are referring to "intercourse" then

These two verses have already addressed the intercourse with the word junabba, why would the Quran refer to the same thing again later in the verse with a different word "lamasa"?

Samia

Mazhar, Siki

The same word "lamasa" has been used at two other places as well with the meaning of "touch" 67, 728

Salaam Explorer

The verb "touch LaMaSa " in these two verses is not the same as the verb "LaaMaSa " in "laamastum alnisaa"; the former 2 being of pattern I, whereas the latter is form III, all have the same root LMS (the double aa is an alif or long vowel; the single a is a short vowel).

If a form I of a verb is used, form III derived from it may give a meaning of "mutual" action of form I. Example kataba to write; kaataba to sign an agreement with someone (both are writing); qatala to kill; qaatala to fight (againt someone). Hence, lamasa to touch; laamasa maybe to move together in touching each other...usually used for sexual intercourse, but could be used for any intimate touching.

Also form III whether derived from non used /existing verbs or not, usually have the notion of actions of longer duration saafara travel (form I, safar, is not used); Taalaba demand (Talaba request); haajara immigrate (hajara desert)...Again laamasa could be touching of a longer duration.

explorer

Salaam Explorer

The verb "touch LaMaSa " in these two verses is not the same as the verb "LaaMaSa " in "laamastum alnisaa"; the former 2 being of pattern I, whereas the latter is form III, all have the same root LMS (the double aa is an alif or long vowel; the single a is a short vowel).

If a form I of a verb is used, form III derived from it may give a meaning of "mutual" action of form I. Example kataba to write; kaataba to sign an agreement with someone (both are writing); qatala to kill; qaatala to fight (againt someone). Hence, lamasa to touch; laamasa maybe to move together in touching each other...usually used for sexual intercourse, but could be used for any intimate touching.

Also form III whether derived from non used /existing verbs or not, usually have the notion of actions of longer duration saafara travel (form I, safar, is not used); Taalaba demand (Talaba request); haajara immigrate (hajara desert)...Again laamasa could be touching of a longer duration.

Samia, peace be with you as well

Thanks for your detailed reply. It was definitely very helpful for me in understanding how different forms work.

explorer

In a state of junaba , bath is necessary, and if one can't take a bath due to any reason then , NO SALAT.

http//www.quraninenglish.com/cgi-local/pages.pl?/quran&img=321

.. and - not - unclean (junabba) -except - passing through -way until - you wash ...

Doesn't this mean

Dont say prayer if you are unclean (junanna)
until you wash (bathe)
except you passing through way (journey).

You said "no salat if you are under junabba". How would you explain "EXCEPT PASSING THROUGH WAY" then?

siki

http//www.quraninenglish.com/cgi-local/pages.pl?/quran&img=321

.. and - not - unclean (junabba) -except - passing through -way until - you wash ...

Doesn't this mean

Dont say prayer if you are unclean (junanna)
until you wash (bathe)
except you passing through way (journey).

You said "no salat if you are under junabba". How would you explain "EXCEPT PASSING THROUGH WAY" then?

explorer!

ya , you are right, Abri sabeelin (traveller) has been granted a concession. i knew that , but it slipped my mind , thanks.

Exactly same thing was said in the translation of Ayah

Negative Mazhar, what i am trying to point out , is that one can be in a state of junabba without Dakhool. please see the reasons in my previous post.

lamastamum un nissa has only one meaning and that is Dakhaltum. If this act had not been done with a wife then her daughter from earlier husband is permissible for marriage. And this can happen only if that woman with whom man had not done that act had been divorced. It means her mother was divorced without Dakhool. What is Dakhool? It is lamastamum. Please read 2236.

Again negative, lamstamum un nissa does not mean dakhool at all. Previously i thought that dakhool is a sub set of lamastmum, but NO, it is not , it means sexual touchings,( only ) which do not culminate into dakhool. The reason has already been explained by explorer above.

In the above commandment there is no marriage or divorce, rather it is a decree for incest. Even if you dint marry a women but you have entered her , every/any kind of sexual advaces/ approach for her daughter , weather through marriage, or through fornication, is termed as incestuous, and is strictly prohibited.

siki

siki

Explorer!

Now, to answer your query, let us first consider,

there are three states one can be in, before salat according to Quran.

clean.

dirty

junaaba.

clean requires wadu every time, preferably, but if one is unable to find water , one can still pray.

Dirty means , those 4 conditions mentioned in quran, this again requires ablution but if one does not find water, one has to carry out some kind of cleansing with dry soil.

Junaabaa, requires bathing, and if due to any reason one is unable to , then one should not salat . later on a concession was added in 4-43 for "abri sabeelin" that he can pray without bath, but logic requires that in this case he must carry out ablution and if no water, then tayammam.

Now your question, i think by lamastamum un nissa, the men are being pushed into the second(dirty)stage , where as the women are not.

They probably remain in state 1, that is why, the commandment is worded such a way, otherwise , he could have used an alternative word and avoided this confusion. God does not run out of words, i agree with you on this.

Above explanation is not a verdict , but probably clicks my mind better than the rest of the explanations.

Peace

siki