Is Maryam from the NCRI/MEK a Quran only leader/Imam?
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Salaam Leoxyz
Do you mean that all your post is the translation of "the Arabic text which you put from Lisaan ul Arab"? Or is it "what we understand from this text"?
You ask me about a sentence to translate, and when I do, you tell me that I am mistaken without showing where I went wrong on this particular translation, or showing how you would translate it? What does all you wrote have to do with either your initial question or the second one?
My dear, you are going off topic, and I've had enough of this "khimaar-therefore-cover-your-heads" issue. I am comfortable withh what I understand. You are not being asked to "cover" your head, so why do you want to discuss it to cover someone else's head? (assuming that you are a male). If you are a sister, cover your head, sister, and leave my head alone. "The best of you with God are the most righteous" and that is the issue.
I am sorry if I sound harsh, but you are new here and I have been discussing this on and off all my life, so please forgive me.
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Salaam Leoxyz
Do you mean that all your post is the translation of "the Arabic text which you put from Lisaan ul Arab"? Or is it "what we understand from this text"?
You ask me about a sentence to translate, and when I do, you tell me that I am mistaken without showing where I went wrong on this particular translation, or showing how you would translate it? What does all you wrote have to do with either your initial question or the second one?
My dear, you are going off topic, and I've had enough of this "khimaar-therefore-cover-your-heads" issue. I am comfortable withh what I understand. You are not being asked to "cover" your head, so why do you want to discuss it to cover someone else's head? (assuming that you are a male). If you are a sister, cover your head, sister, and leave my head alone. "The best of you with God are the most righteous" and that is the issue.
I am sorry if I sound harsh, but you are new here and I have been discussing this on and off all my life, so please forgive me.
Dear Samia
The question is not who is cover his head .
The question is what is "Khimaar" and for what it is used for.
You said that Khimaar is not for females.
I gave you the references from all Arabic dictionaries.Instead of being harsh refute with references as I have put .
You did not put even a single reference
The exact Lisan ul Arab text which I have put before.= And Khimar is for the woman
= And that is Naseef
= And "Al-khimar is said to be anything with which a woman covers her head .If you have some reference bring out .I will appreciate.You have been discussing this topic ,that is good.But I need proper references .
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Salaam Leoxyz
Your first question was how I reached that understanding in the old post. I explained it, starting by translating what you copied from Lisanul 3arab. You then asked me to give a translation of what you provided, and I told you that I have already done. What references should I bring? For my understanding? It is an understanding of a sentence from Lisanul 3arab, that's all.
My only proof from lisanul 3arab that either "khumur" in verse 2431 is not the plural of "khimaar"; or if it is, it does not mean "head cover" is that Lisanul 3arab did not quote this verse as a proof for "khimaar=head cover, or khumur= plural of khimaar", or even as related to this entry in any way. Yet, it brought a hadith to prove that "khimaar =head cover for men".
Do other dictionaries quote this verse (2431)?
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Peace,
Thanks Samia for really making this clear. And I also find it very intresting that not the verse 2431 is mention as a reference in lisanul arab.
Sis Majidah
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Salaam Leoxyz
My only proof from lisanul 3arab that either "khumur" in verse 2431 is not the plural of "khimaar"; or if it is, it does not mean "head cover" is that Lisanul 3arab did not quote this verse as a proof for "khimaar=head cover, or khumur= plural of khimaar", or even as related to this entry in any way. Yet, it brought a hadith to prove that "khimaar =head cover for men".
Do other dictionaries quote this verse (2431)?
Dear Samia
How can you say that the word "khumur " used in the Ayais not the plural of "Khimaar "
Some evidence is either right or wrong.Nothing in-between.So there are no ifs and buts.Khumur is either Plural or not ,nothing in -between.
Look at Lisaan Ul Arab ;- ( 4 / 254)
So lisaan ul Arb says that plural of "Khimaar is "khumur" (highlighted)
As far as your saying that because lisan ul Arb is not bringing this aya as an evidence ,so in this aya this meaning is not acceptable.This logic is not correct.Lisan ul arb is a dictionary of classical Arabic and has quoted many quranic Ayaat .But it does not mean if it does not quote some aya ,then that aya loses some meaning.
The well known and widely accepted Quranic dictionary of Imam Raghib in Mufradaat says;- } {
Same meaning of Khimaar and has quoted your required Aya.
I have uploaded below the a small para from Lane.
Hope it helps -
Peace,
So if this khimar is a headcovering for both males and females as your references claims and also quotes 2431 as a reference then why are no one today use that word for their headcoverings?
I have never heard a woman say, I will put on my khimar, but she says I will put on my hijjab and my abaya or such.
I still doubt that surah 2431 is about headcovering but it can refer to any cloth that cover her breast/cloveage as the surah states.
And it's very strange that Quran which are ment to be for all people for all times have this kind of dress codes which is more suitable for people living in extreme climate zones(heat,sandstorms).
So maybe this dress codes have been weared out and the dress of modesty is for all woman to decide for her own.
Because I guess the intelligence are higher these days than back on the time of the Prophet Muhammad !?
Sis Majidah
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Peace,
So if this khimar is a headcovering for both males and females as your references claims and also quotes 2431 as a reference then why are no one today use that word for their headcoverings?
I have never heard a woman say, I will put on my khimar, but she says I will put on my hijjab and my abaya or such.
I still doubt that surah 2431 is about headcovering but it can refer to any cloth that cover her breast/cloveage as the surah states.
And it's very strange that Quran which are ment to be for all people for all times have this kind of dress codes which is more suitable for people living in extreme climate zones(heat,sandstorms).
So maybe this dress codes have been weared out and the dress of modesty is for all woman to decide for her own.
Because I guess the intelligence are higher these days than back on the time of the Prophet Muhammad !?
Sis Majidah
Dear
you are at liberty to think and do whatever you consider correct.No one can enforce you.If the females and males are half naked ,who can stop them.
But kindly do not fire from the shoulder of the Quran or Deen. -
Dear Samia
How can you say that the word "khumur " used in the Ayais not the plural of "Khimaar "
Salaam Leoxyz
You tend to leave the evidence and jump to what I wrote. First, I did not say khumur is not the plural of khimaar, fullstop. I was trying to analyze why Lisanul 3arab does not quote this verse.
Secondly, I put khimaar between brackets, meaning this meaning of khimaar as head-cover for women. This is not strange in Arabic. "kut-taab" is the plural of "kaatib writer" but not the plural of "kaatib clerk". There are many examples like this. Lisanul 3arab does not recognize "khimaar head cover for women" and that's why it says "and it is said that the khimaar is what the woman covers her head with " . IT IS SAID, not what Lisanul 3arab says.
There are other words that have the plural "khumur". Remember that broken plurals do not have a rule, and nouns do not have a rule as how to have their plurals, except very few one word can have more than one plural, and one plural can serve many words.
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Salaam Leoxyz
You tend to leave the evidence and jump to what I wrote. First, I did not say khumur is not the plural of khimaar, fullstop. I was trying to analyze why Lisanul 3arab does not quote this verse.
Secondly, I put khimaar between brackets, meaning this meaning of khimaar as head-cover for women. This is not strange in Arabic. "kut-taab" is the plural of "kaatib writer" but not the plural of "kaatib clerk". There are many examples like this. Lisanul 3arab does not recognize "khimaar head cover for women" and that's why it says "and it is said that the khimaar is what the woman covers her head with " . IT IS SAID, not what Lisanul 3arab says.
There are other words that have the plural "khumur". Remember that broken plurals do not have a rule, and nouns do not have a rule as how to have their plurals, except very few one word can have more than one plural, and one plural can serve many words.
Sorry Samia;
Again mistaken you are.
As far words "qeela" or "yoqaalo" are concerned these are used very frequently in arabic dictionary when giving the meanings.Tajul aroos and Lisan ul Arb and 'Almohkam use this terminology very commonly.
Secondly, give me a single reference in which "Khumur" is plural of any other word.
In one of your post in this thread you saidSalaam all
This is what I understood from this link
What is clear from this paragraph is that the word "khimaar" does not show!!
khumur; khumr and akhmira are all plurals of the word khimir, which is another word for naSeef. NaSeef is pertaining to women, whereas khimir pertains to both men and women.naSeef is a khimir, but khimir is not a naSeef.
Alhamdullilah I have a lot of stuff for research.I will not hesitate for a second to accept the truth.But proper reference is required.
I do not believe in "without reference " stuff.Because it is the question of the interpretation of the Quran.
In my last post I have uploaded the Lane's defination of the "Khimaar",. -
Salaam
I know your fingers are just itching to type mistaken.
This is not to say I do not make mistakes..that would be rediculous. But before thinking...and now before even reading, you jump to your guns. Can you be a bit quiet and patient if you are genuinely asking questions? However, if your aim is to attack for the sake of attacking, I am not at all interested in sharing this time- wasting game with you. I do welcome anyone to show me where I am mistaken, and I will own to it. You have to show the spirit of discussion, and not of assault.Back to your post. You ask if there is another word whose plural is khumur, and without thinking, you quote another old post of mine (thank you very much, because in it is the answer for your question). Have your eyes wide open and read. beware, don't mix "khimaar" with "khimir".
khumur; khumr and akhmira are all plurals of the word khimir, which is another word for naSeef. NaSeef is pertaining to women, whereas khimir pertains to both men and women.
naSeef is a khimir, but khimir is not a naSeef.
As for "It is said", yes, it is frequent in dictionaries... did I say it is rare to find "it is said"? And of course you have to find it in dictionaries, where else? It is an expression of uncertainity.
Can you find in the dictionary under, for example, "mayyett" "It is said that when the soul leaves the body the person is called mayyet?" whatever
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Salaam
I know your fingers are just itching to type mistaken.
This is not to say I do not make mistakes..that would be rediculous. But before thinking...and now before even reading, you jump to your guns. Can you be a bit quiet and patient if you are genuinely asking questions? However, if your aim is to attack for the sake of attacking, I am not at all interested in sharing this time- wasting game with you. I do welcome anyone to show me where I am mistaken, and I will own to it. You have to show the spirit of discussion, and not of assault.Back to your post. You ask if there is another word whose plural is khumur, and without thinking, you quote another old post of mine (thank you very much, because in it is the answer for your question). Have your eyes wide open and read. beware, don't mix "khimaar" with "khimir".
As for "It is said", yes, it is frequent in dictionaries... did I say it is rare to find "it is said"? And of course you have to find it in dictionaries, where else? It is an expression of uncertainity.
Can you find in the dictionary under, for example, "mayyett" "It is said that when the soul leaves the body the person is called mayyet?" whatever
Again not correct
Khumur is not plural of any thing except Khimaar.You are depending on Tanveer's post.I do not know his source;
I am copy pasting whole discussion of Lisan ul Arab.At least I could not find anywhere you are saying.I request you from this discussion of Lisan ,please separate
1The meaning "khimir" (according to you)
2Khumur as plural of khimir
Lisan 's script- ( 4 / 254)
( )
( * ? ? )
( * ? ? )
( * ? ? )
( * ? ? )
( * ? ? ž
- ( 4 / 254)
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Dear
you are at liberty to think and do whatever you consider correct.No one can enforce you.If the females and males are half naked ,who can stop them.
But kindly do not fire from the shoulder of the Quran or Deen.Peace,
Of course I do know that I can choose whatever i want to dress, but that isn't the case. As a believer in God and Quran I want to follow what it says in Quran. And according my understanding Quran advice us to be modest and it goes for both gender. But advices like lenghten and guard your modesty and low down your gaze is very wide in its practise.
But it seems like you have come here to challenge us God Alone Quran alone followers, because I have noticed that in other threads as well.
But you and sis Samia has a debate here so I will not interrupt in your discussions regarding khimar, I only wanted to made my opinion heard.
Peace Majidah
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Peace,
Of course I do know that I can choose whatever i want to dress, but that isn't the case. As a believer in God and Quran I want to follow what it says in Quran. And according my understanding Quran advice us to be modest and it goes for both gender. But advices like lenghten and guard your modesty and low down your gaze is very wide in its practise.
But it seems like you have come here to challenge us God Alone Quran alone followers, because I have noticed that in other threads as well.
But you and sis Samia has a debate here so I will not interrupt in your discussions regarding khimar, I only wanted to made my opinion heard.
Peace Majidah
Dear sister.
I have not come to challenge anyone.Not a correct perception.I am a learner.While browsing, saw this site and thought I may get something good regarding Deen.
But unfortunately there is plethora of1Wrong reference /No references at all
2Lack of repect for Prophet (PBUH)
3Try to change the meaning of the Quran in the name of research and moderinsm (Thought/Research is not bad but it should be backed by Proper references)
I am sorry if you felt something bad.
This actually irritated me a lot. -
Dear Brother,
So you mean if there aren't any references we shall leave it?
But then again we will follow what we find according our own understandings anyway yeah
Peace
Majidah -
Dear Brother,
So you mean if there aren't any references we shall leave it?
But then again we will follow what we find according our own understandings anyway yeah
Peace
MajidahDear
I am sorry again to disagree with you.Quran needs a lot of thought ,it is the order of the Quran to think /think/think over it.
If a person asks you that you should practice medicine ,then does it mean that you start practicing without proper knowledge/degree.
When Quran orders to think over it ,it means it is our obligation to fulfill all requirements to think over it ,rather start dragging meanings according to wish and label it as "Research". -
Peace,
Ok, but I haven't said that I will not ponder the meanings. I always do that. But my understandings is that Quran is for everyone who actually can read( well I know I can listen to it also) so if I read it then I will understand it as it comes into my mind. If I don't understand it I have options like I can wait and read it again another time and maybe then I will understand it or I can ask someone else of their understandings. But the second options are perhaps not enough for me and yes I need some lexicon for that matters. But as we see also the lexicon can make us disagree of the actual meanings hmm so it's not that easy all time.
Therefore I have many times wondering if Quran is individual in some instances. That we shall take the base, the basic and then the rest of it is for our own to decide how to practise.
Peace
Majidah -
Peace,
Ok, but I haven't said that I will not ponder the meanings. I always do that. But my understandings is that Quran is for everyone who actually can read( well I know I can listen to it also) so if I read it then I will understand it as it comes into my mind. If I don't understand it I have options like I can wait and read it again another time and maybe then I will understand it or I can ask someone else of their understandings. But the second options are perhaps not enough for me and yes I need some lexicon for that matters. But as we see also the lexicon can make us disagree of the actual meanings hmm so it's not that easy all time.
Therefore I have many times wondering if Quran is individual in some instances. That we shall take the base, the basic and then the rest of it is for our own to decide how to practise.
Peace
MajidahDear sister
That is very much true.You feel the need of "someone learned" to help you when you do not know.
The Holy Quran says217
If you (O objectors,) have no knowledge of this, you may ask the people of the Book.
This is the point where some group bashes the scholars who have spent their lives to understand the teachings of Quran and Sunna.Why? I do not know.
The usual modes operandi is
1ick up a few points no matter whether those are of some importance or not and base whole of theories on it.Make believe the people that this group of clergy is an evil group.
2Target the sacred people so that no one listens to them.Depreciate the importance and the Role of Prophet and let people believe that his job was simply to hand over the book nothing else.(Allah had to send so many messengers 'just to hand over a book??).Ayaas which describe his role ,manipulate them so that people are not aware of the role of the Holy Prophet and then mold the Holy Quran according to one's wishes in the name of research.
Anyway this is my impression. -
Again not correct
Khumur is not plural of any thing except Khimaar.You are depending on Tanveer's post.I do not know his source;
I am copy pasting whole discussion of Lisan ul ArabSalaam Leoxyz
If you have patiently paid attention while reading the previous posts, you would have realized that the link was neither provided by brother Tanweer nor was it from Lisanul 3arab, and you wouldn't have bothered to copy all this from Lisaanul 3arab
The source was also mentioned.
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Salaam Leoxyz
If you have patiently paid attention while reading the previous posts, you would have realized that the link was neither provided by brother Tanweer nor was it from Lisanul 3arab, and you wouldn't have bothered to copy all this from Lisaanul 3arab
The source was also mentioned.
Dear sister
Then give me the source of your information please. -
Peace,
Yes, sure but to trust lets say a scolar is not a safe solutions because we all must stand for our own deeds on the Day of Judgment right!?
So I cannot point finger on anyone and say, well it was his idea or his understanding hypno We must figure it out ourself and not hide behind someone else.
I have since long time back since I left sectarians approach a very simple life.
I do search for knowledge as much I can by being openminded and listen to people and read stuff and ponder about Al Quran as well.
I try my best to be a goodhearted person by being fair to both my own needs and other peoples needs. Try to be modest in both mind and appearence. Help the poor and needy if I'm able.
This I find very important as a believer in God and Quran and maybe there are people who don't think about these simple things I have mentioned.
But when we approach a kind and fair attitude for our surroundings it will make a big deal and hopefully the surroundings will adopt it and a positive frame of mind will be ruling.
Peace
Majidah