A Problem of Translation of Quranic Aya for Quranists

? Offline

Common, that is not enough, the important questions should be

What does Allah mean by the elbows?
Where is it?
Does water needs to reach it?
If the elbow is a bone, does it mean the whole bone or part of it?
... get the picture ...

Wassallam

Wakas

I do not see how the sign is unclear. It says "ila" /

Since there is no demarcation of the elbow (i.e. where it begins and ends) on the body, then once you reach where you think it to be, most likely the tip of the pointed juncture then that is fine.

I think you have misunderstood what is meant when one says al quran is detailed/clarified, every example etc. It is with respect to its purpose.

Leoxyz

I do not see how the sign is unclear. It says "ila" /

Since there is no demarcation of the elbow (i.e. where it begins and ends) on the body, then once you reach where you think it to be, most likely the tip of the pointed juncture then that is fine.

I think you have misunderstood what is meant when one says al quran is detailed/clarified, every example etc. It is with respect to its purpose.

Dear Waqa
X--------------> Y
X ila Y
Is "Y" included in or excluded.
??
Let me put it another way

Did I eat the head of the fish or not ??

Let us check where the Quranists stand in Arabic language ,the language of the Quran.

223

Wakas

X--------------> Y
X ila Y
Is "Y" included in or excluded.
??

Response reposted

Since there is no demarcation of the elbow (i.e. where it begins and ends) on the body, then once you reach where you think it to be, most likely the tip of the pointed juncture then that is fine.

Rather than asking your question again, it seems more accurate to state that you do not understand my answer. If so, please state so, rather than repeating your question. Let us check where members stand in English language ,the language of my answer.

Leoxyz

Response reposted
Rather than asking your question again, it seems more accurate to state that you do not understand my answer. If so, please state so, rather than repeating your question. Let us check where members stand in English language ,the language of my answer.

Dear
I have put the example of an arabic sentence .Answer it if you have the answer yuck yuck

Wakas

You ask a question.

I reply.

You ask it again, then follow with another question.

Let us deal with one question at a time. What is your response to my answer?

Leoxyz

You ask a question.

I reply.

You ask it again, then follow with another question.

Let us deal with one question at a time. What is your response to my answer?

It is question of meaning of "ila " no matter what is the extent of "elbow"
(hand)--------------->(elbow) A
(Hand) --------------(elbow)-> B

Will "ila" refers to "A" upto elbow or
it refers to "B" including elbow.
No matter what thinks the extent of elbow.

unknownuser

Let us check where the Quranists stand in Arabic language ,the language of the Quran.

223

Wa-in kuntum fee raybin mimma nazzalna AAala AAabdina fa/too bisooratin min mithlihi waodAAoo shuhadaakum min dooni Allahi in kuntum sadiqeena
223 And if you were in doubt/suspicion from what We descended on Our worshipper/slave , so come/bring with a chapter from its similar/equal/alike to it, and call your witnesses/testifiers from other than God, if you were truthful.

Are you mocking God and Qur'an to prove itself?

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo itha qumtum ila alssalati...
56 You, you those who believed, if you started/got up to the prayers,...

Does up to the prayers also include the prayers?

http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/36/36_8.htm
Inna jaAAalna fee aAAnaqihim aghlalan fahiya ila al-athqani fahum muqmahoona
368 We have put yokes round their necks right up to their chins, so that their heads are forced up (and they cannot see).

Does yokes round their necks right up to their chins also include their chins?

Leoxyz

Wa-in kuntum fee raybin mimma nazzalna AAala AAabdina fa/too bisooratin min mithlihi waodAAoo shuhadaakum min dooni Allahi in kuntum sadiqeena
223 And if you were in doubt/suspicion from what We descended on Our worshipper/slave , so come/bring with a chapter from its similar/equal/alike to it, and call your witnesses/testifiers from other than God, if you were truthful.

Are you mocking God and Qur'an to prove itself?

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo itha qumtum ila alssalati...
56 You, you those who believed, if you started/got up to the prayers,...

Does up to the prayers also include the prayers?

http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/36/36_8.htm
Inna jaAAalna fee aAAnaqihim aghlalan fahiya ila al-athqani fahum muqmahoona
368 We have put yokes round their necks right up to their chins, so that their heads are forced up (and they cannot see).

Does yokes round their necks right up to their chins also include their chins?

Dear Brother
It means you want to say that "elbow" is not included in the act of this "ghusal" .Am I right to understand you?.If wrong please do correct me .

unknownuser

Dear Brother
It means you want to say that "elbow" is not included in the act of this "ghusal" .Am I right to understand you?.If wrong please do correct me .

el?bow (l'b&#039
n.
1.
a. The joint or bend of the arm between the forearm and the upper arm.

http//www.eorthopod.com/images/ContentImages/elbow/elbow_anatomy/elbow_anatomy_intro01.jpg

Therefore, wash up to ?the joint? or bend and don?t worry if short/over or if you miss a spot; they didn?t have sinks with running water 1400 years ago and people were lucky to bathe once a week and remember -- it's intent which counts.

Peace

unknownuser

Am I right in understanding this thread was made as satire?

It is very funny. Mashaallah.

unknownuser

"wash your hands to the elbows"
Someone wants to know if the elbows are included or not )

Am I getting this right?

Am I right in understanding this thread was made as satire?

I certainly hope so, because if it's not, then I weep for the future of this "Umma" '(

Why don't you just play it safe and include the elbow?

Therefore, wash up to ?the joint? or bend and don?t worry if short/over or if you miss a spot; they didn?t have sinks with running water 1400 years ago and people were lucky to bathe once a week and remember -- it's intent which counts.

Very well spoken, Nun.

what is truly mind-boggling is the amount of information that you will see in an Islamic library about the 'science/knowledge of wudu (ablution)'. Volumes and volumes about the subject, and how the prophet and companions used to perform it. So many details that the poor faithful joe will be stricken down with a paranoya concerning his wudu and if it's right or wrong, and if he's doing it like the prophet did.

But I think the reality is simple. The level of cleanliness and hygene in our siciety today is easily 10 times better than it was back then. So who should be a model for whom?

What if I decide to wash my whole arm to the shoulder? Is my wudu considered void?
Am I destined for eternal damnation in the 666th layer of Hell?

unknownuser

What if I decide to wash my whole arm to the shoulder? Is my wudu considered void?
Am I destined for eternal damnation in the 666th layer of Hell?

Don't be silly. There are 7 layers of hell.

Satire it is.

Jack

Am I right in understanding this thread was made as satire?

I certainly hope so, because if it's not, then I weep for the future of this "Umma"

Peace,

Yes that person was actually serious brickwall

unknownuser

Just for reference, I weep for the present, past and future.

Leoxyz

el?bow (l'b&#039
n.
1.
a. The joint or bend of the arm between the forearm and the upper arm.

http//www.eorthopod.com/images/ContentImages/elbow/elbow_anatomy/elbow_anatomy_intro01.jpg

Therefore, wash up to ?the joint? or bend and don?t worry if short/over or if you miss a spot; they didn?t have sinks with running water 1400 years ago and people were lucky to bathe once a week and remember -- it's intent which counts.

Peace

Dear
What impression I take that you think that One may ghusal "elbows" or not" that does not make difference.It means Quran is not telling definitely whether to wash the elbows or not ?
Again am I right to understand you ? (Sorry for asking like this because of I lack knowledge and I feel difficulty in comprehending certain conceiled meanings)

unknownuser

Dear
What impression I take that you think that One may ghusal "elbows" or not" that does not make difference.It means Quran is not telling definitely whether to wash the elbows or not ?
Again am I right to understand you ? (Sorry for asking like this because of I lack knowledge and I feel difficulty in comprehending certain conceiled meanings)

368 We have put yokes round their necks right up to their chins, so that their heads are forced up (and they cannot see)

Common sense 101 explained in detail

Take the metaphorical yoke/collar off your neck so you can see
Place collar around ?the joint? known as elbow ? view diagram
http//www.eorthopod.com/images/ContentImages/elbow/elbow_anatomy/elbow_anatomy_intro01.jpg

Imagine the white cartilage part in picture (clearly visible on left) as the collar

Wash up to collar ?the joint? or elbow ? you may go beyond if you like
When done, take off imaginary collar and place back around neck up to chin

Further instructions will be provided upon written request.

Good luck!

Sincerely,

Bajram (aka Holiday) Hoxha or Eid Imam in Arabic

Leoxyz

368 We have put yokes round their necks right up to their chins, so that their heads are forced up (and they cannot see)

Common sense 101 explained in detail

Take the metaphorical yoke/collar off your neck so you can see
Place collar around ?the joint? known as elbow ? view diagram
http//www.eorthopod.com/images/ContentImages/elbow/elbow_anatomy/elbow_anatomy_intro01.jpg

Imagine the white cartilage part in picture (clearly visible on left) as the collar

Wash up to collar ?the joint? or elbow ? you may go beyond if you like
When done, take off imaginary collar and place back around neck up to chin

Further instructions will be provided upon written request.

Good luck!

Sincerely,

Bajram (aka Holiday) Hoxha or Eid Imam in Arabic

Dear
So you want to explain the Qurain on "may/may not" pattern.
Whichever word you like you can put in "metaphoric /allegorical " meaning.
2156
"ghusal" of the elbows is either necessary or not necessary.There is nothing in between."May/may not " is not applicable to Quran.

unknownuser

Leoxyz, can you clarify whether you are joking or not, please.

Thanks.

Samia

What difference does it make if you wash it up to the elbow or up and including the elbow? If it was that important, it would have been put in a an explicit way and would have also been included in "tayam-mum".

"ilaa" could mean both, and is used in the quraan in both meanings.