To Obey the Prophet(PBUH) is obligatory to every Muslim
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For some reason, no one ever responds to me.
Yes, exactly. Aside from the argument being completely circular (hadith says this, quran doesnt, thus hadith is necessary), it is fact that the quran is complete. Since it is, if something is not specifically given that YOU or the HADITH personally desire, then it is not important in the eyes of the quran. This is easy to see.
Peace
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Sorry for interrupting the discussion.
"To Obey the Prophet(PBUH) is obligatory to every Muslim" - Who said that? I'm not worshippping the one who said that, I want to worship God. After I verified that there is a God, and then I verified that this Quran is from God. Then, here's a summary of what I currently understand from the Quran about this issue
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The Prophet and Messenger is not the same. The Messenger is the state that the prophet is speaking God's message - perfectly - so God said Obey the Messenger. Now, see 661 - why does God use the word prophet there? Because that's what the prophet did, not the Messenger.
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Obeying God and obeying the Messenger is the same thing . We can only know what God says from the Messenger and the Messenger can only speak what God says (, ).
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God preserved His message . Now, what does He say about "hadith"? See 7750, 7185, 316, 456, 3923, 5234, 6844 - see the arabic word "Hadith" in these verses.
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The duty of the Messenger is ONLY to clearly deliver the Message , , , , . How to obey him? Obey what he ONLY does (only delivers the Message). He warns with the Quran whomever it reaches (it reached us also) . He reminds with the Quran to those who revere Gods promise .
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Therefore, the duty of explaining the Quran is NOT for the Messenger, it's for God.
Some people might come to say "but the prophet said..." this and that - Can you sincerely verify that he said it? This one said that one said... So it's true?
I want to worship God, not a man. I respect good men, but not worship/obey them.
Who do you want to Worship? God?
- Then you should obey Him.
How to Obey God? - Obey what he tells you.
How does he tell you? - Through his Messenger.
Therefore, 480 Whoever obeys the messenger has obeyed God; and whoever turns away, We have not sent you as a guardian over them.
Therefore, "Obey God and obey the Messenger" = worship God.
NOT "Obey God and obey the hadith books about prophet Muhammad".
By the way, there's so much you can find in the hadith books, everything you might want, probably the book referred here
(See 6114, also.)
6836 What is wrong with you, how do you judge?
6837 Or do you have another book which you study?
6838 In it, you can find what you wish?The Quran is complete/fully detailed. But for some (many), it doesn't have what they like to see in it, so they go and see the Hadith books, they'll find just about anything they want - even though contradicting - they choose what they wish. May God guide & forgive.
May God Guide.
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Sorry for interrupting the discussion.
"To Obey the Prophet(PBUH) is obligatory to every Muslim" - Who said that? I'm not worshippping the one who said that, I want to worship God. After I verified that there is a God, and then I verified that this Quran is from God. Then, here's a summary of what I currently understand from the Quran about this issue
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The Prophet and Messenger is not the same. The Messenger is the state that the prophet is speaking God's message - perfectly - so God said Obey the Messenger. Now, see 661 - why does God use the word prophet there? Because that's what the prophet did, not the Messenger.
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Obeying God and obeying the Messenger is the same thing . We can only know what God says from the Messenger and the Messenger can only speak what God says (, ).
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God preserved His message , now what does he say about all the hadith? See 7750, 7185, 316, 456, 3923, 5234, 6844 - see the arabic word "Hadith" in these verses.
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The duty of the Messenger is ONLY to clearly deliver the Message , , , , . How to obey him? Obey what he ONLY does (only delivers the Message). He warns with the Quran whomever it reaches (it reached us also) . He reminds with the Quran to those who revere God?s promise .
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Therefore, the duty of explaining the Quran is NOT for the Messenger, it's for God.
Some people might come to say "but the prophet said..." this and that - Can you sincerely verify that he said it? This one said that one said... So it's true?
I want to worship God, not a man. I respect good men, but not worship/obey them.
Who do you want to Worship? God?
- Then you should obey Him.
How to Obey God? - Obey what he tells you.
How does he tell you? - Through his Messenger.
Therefore, 480 Whoever obeys the messenger has obeyed God; and whoever turns away, We have not sent you as a guardian over them.
Therefore, "Obey God and obey the Messenger" = worship God.
NOT "Obey God and obey the hadith books about prophet Muhammad".
May God Guide.
Salam.
Beautiful work.
Truly beautiful work.
May The Exalted God Almighty The Most Powerful reward you with Paradise.Peace.
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(See 6114, also.)
6836 What is wrong with you, how do you judge?
6837 Or do you have another book which you study?
6838 In it, you can find what you wish?The Quran is complete/fully detailed. But for some (many), it doesn't have what they like to see in it, so they go and see the Hadith books, they'll find just about anything they want - even though contradicting - they choose what they wish. May God guide & forgive.
May God Guide.
Mashaallah, Allah is just jealous that Holy Huzoor made a more fully detailed book than his, called Sahih al-Bukhari.
Also, Leoxyz, selective perception is reminiscent of schizophrenia, please keep this in mind. I have to "work" (not employment) with schizophrenics, so I know this quite well.
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Raj-ah,
Regarding one of your posts about extremism, I have written two questions below as a reaction to your view of following only the quran as divine instructions and not e.g. hadeeth.
Are people who ALWAYS pay their tax extremists? Is it better if they sometimes pay and sometimes not?
Are people who NEVER cheat on their spouses extremists? Is it better if they cheat sometimes? Would this be more balanced and less extremist?peace
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ok this Quranic verse finally clicked!!! Sorry for my lag ... Thank you everyone for the discussion! There was always doubt in my mind regarding "sunnah" and a part of me was still clinging on to it. No longer...
The emphasis is on the word ar-Rasuul ...
It would have been a valid argument from those who still hang on to Hadith/Sunah, if the verse said "Muhammad" and not "Messenger"...
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to those who follow the sunnah of the prophet,
First, let's just suppose for a moment (as a thought-experiment) that we don't know/believe whether the "sunnah-way" or the "quranist-way" is better than the other. Let's pretend we have blank minds about this.. no sides taken.
Now, is it better, or more preferable, objectivley, in some way, to follow the "sunnah-way"?? Why? Is there any logic advantage? If an atheist alien from another planet would come and observe "quranis" and "sunnis", would he find any obvious, practical advantages with the sunnah-way??
What is your(sunni) opinion on this?
I'm asking this since I personally can't see how the mode of urinating(for example) would help me attain heaven (assuming that you attain heaven by being thankful to God and serving humanity through justice, charity, constructive activities, etc). Many things which come from sunnah seems to NOT be relevant to anything except to ones ego and for internal admiration in the sunni community.
I'm asking for some objective points, not likes and dislikes.
peace
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to those who follow the sunnah of the prophet,
First, let's just suppose for a moment (as a thought-experiment) that we don't know/believe whether the "sunnah-way" or the "quranist-way" is better than the other. Let's pretend we have blank minds about this.. no sides taken.
Now, is it better, or more preferable, objectivley, in some way, to follow the "sunnah-way"?? Why? Is there any logic advantage? If an atheist alien from another planet would come and observe "quranis" and "sunnis", would he find any obvious, practical advantages with the sunnah-way??
What is your(sunni) opinion on this?
Dear
Kindly rectify this sentence .
What is your (muslim) opinion on this ? -
Peace all and Rajah as well,
For me Quran is a guide to come closer to God and to remind me of God who created me and the Universe.
We have from the beginning of time developed our brains and to brush our teeth was perhaps not common for Adam but today I guess all do it who are concerned about their health.
I think Quran give us the basic rules for staying on the right course and I cannot see any meaning of follow something ritualistic as hadiths are dwelling in.
And I don't care if you dislike my beliefs and understanding because I will never ever be following bukharie and company and life is also too short for wasting time with them and also on arguing over silly subjects as this
So, Rajah be my guest and go and throw some stones on the devil on hajj if you are so convinced that is the right path.
I prefer more precious stones myself like safirs and rubies and such hehe.
Peace
Sis Majidah -
Peace Rajah,
Ahl-Hadith are one extreme and you are the other, both are extremists and experience tells us extermists are not good for the society.
It is good that you acknowledge that Ahl-Alhadith are exterme. They are extreme followers of falsehood. You are one of them because you follow much of the same falsehood. The difference is that you are in denial while they are proud of it. If you think that "Ahl Al-Hadith" is such a dirty word that you are ashamed of then why do you defend Hadiths on this forum? As I said, you are in denial.
We have listened to these fancy talking a lot, question is How do you pray to the GOD?
This question that you put in your defense of Hadiths merely demonstrates your ignorance of Hadiths. It is a fact that you cannot perform the false ritual that you call "Salat" according to Hadiths. You cannot even get the most basic info about your false Salat such as the 2,4,4,3,4 formula from Hadiths. This is such an indisputable fact that even the most ardent Hadith defenders acknowledge it. It is only ignorant blind Hadith followers who don't know this. When are you going to grow up (intellectually), face reality and stop being one of them?
Peace,
Ayman
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Why do you follow the 6 books of Sunni Hadith and not the 4 Shia Hadith books?
Can you explain? They (Shia) call your books lies and you call their's lies.
This is what makes one Sunni and what makes one Shia, primarily today their Hadith books, additional scriptures written by their own hands over 600 years.
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Why do you follow the 6 books of Sunni Hadith and not the 4 Shia Hadith books?
Can you explain? They (Shia) call your books lies and you call their's lies.
This is what makes one Sunni and what makes one Shia, primarily today their Hadith books, additional scriptures written by their own hands over 600 years.
Exactly. How do you prove which ones are right/wrong? These verses are particularly interesting in regards to this issue
Ironically, they broke up into sects only after the knowledge had come to them, due to jealousy and resentment among themselves. If it were not for a predetermined decision from your Lord to respite them for a definite interim, they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, the later generations who inherited the scripture are full of doubts.
Those who divide themselves into sects do not belong with you. Their judgment rests with GOD, then He will inform them of everything they had done.
You shall submit to Him, reverence Him, observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and - whatever you do - do not ever fall into idol worship.
(Do not fall in idol worship,) like those who divide their religion into sects; each party REJOICING with what they have.
3032 mixes well with the following verse
When GOD ALONE is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter shrink with aversion. But when others are mentioned beside Him, THEY BECOME SATISFIED/REJOICED.
Peace
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The shia hadeeths came a hundred or more years after the Sunni ones. There are books on the men of hadeeeth and those books gave proofs of why one cannot believe a person's narration. Some narrations in Shia books are correct and some are not and they have to abide by the science of men of hadeeth as in the books of men.
The Shia do not refuse all the hadeeths of Sunnis. They refuse hadeeths that came from some Sahaba that they deemed Hypocrites and so forth. Despite all that, there is a lot of common ground. Something that is clearly lacking here.
Hussein
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Peace Hussein,
The shia hadeeths came a hundred or more years after the Sunni ones. There are books on the men of hadeeeth and those books gave proofs of why one cannot believe a person's narration. Some narrations in Shia books are correct and some are not and they have to abide by the science of men of hadeeth as in the books of men.
The Shia do not refuse all the hadeeths of Sunnis. They refuse hadeeths that came from some Sahaba that they deemed Hypocrites and so forth. Despite all that, there is a lot of common ground. Something that is clearly lacking here.
The Shia sect came a hundred or more years before the Sunni sect. It is a fact that Sunnism is a later day innovation that only became official dogma at the time of the Abbassid Caliph El-Mutawakil. This naturally heralded anti-rationalism and the long decline of the Abbassid empire.
It is interesting that Shia Hadiths came later than those of Sunnis despite the fact that Shiism predates Sunnism. The only possible explanation is that there was no such thing as Hadiths at the time the Shia sect was established. It only became necessary to have Hadiths after the Sunni sect invented them.
Peace,
Ayman
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You obviously lack history knowledge as well as logic. The group that left the default is the later group. Sunnism is the default because it does not ask additional requirements to a person's Islam. Shiism adds more requirements and that is why it came later, very much like yours which requires rejection of hadeeth and other stuff. So, while you and your group will not call me Muslim, I will not do the same to you. You are muslims but not Sunnis= not the default.
Hussein
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very much like yours which requires rejection of hadeeth and other stuff.
Please provide reference. Thanks. More to follow.
I was under the impression this included baseless hadeeth and idle talk only (316 and others) and that which is verifiable by the eyes, ears, and heart (1736).
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Peace Hussein,
You obviously lack history knowledge as well as logic. The group that left the default is the later group. Sunnism is the default because it does not ask additional requirements to a person's Islam.
The very names Sunnah or Sunnism that you use and call yourself are later day innovations and this is a historical and logical fact. The Arabic common noun "sunnah" literally means "a way or a manner of acting". Linguistically, it is not a religious word.
Although the term "sunnah" occurs a number of times in the great reading, it never refers to the example of the prophet but it mostly refers to the manner in which the god chose to deal with the previous people who rejected the message of prophets sent to them (1777, 3362, 4085, 4823, 33137, etc.).
Until the late 8th century CE, sunnah was an abstraction which encompasses the practice of anyone (typically of the past). Despised practices were also referred to with this term. Thus, in quranic commentaries such as those of Ibn Kathir, there are no attempts to equate certain terms from scripture with Sunna. It was Al-Shafii (d. 820) who was the first to try and link up a quranic term with Sunnah, in an attempt to provide scriptural evidence for his insistence that Sunnah should be equated automatically with Sunnat al- nabi (manner of acting of the prophet). The word chosen by him was "7ikma" (wisdom), but even after his lifetime this identification does not seem to have caught on with other jurists. And, finally, the passage that comes to mind most readily as offering a good opportunity for tracing the concept of Sunnah of the prophet in the great reading, namely 3321, ?You had in the messenger of the god a perfect example...?, was not even hinted at by Al-Shafii. It is Ahmad bin Hanbal (d. 855) who mentions 3321 in connection with his arguments for Sunnah.
Finally, the invention of authority for Sunnah was completed in the first chapter of the Sunan of al- Darimi (d. 869) where a number of traditions and opinions on Sunnah vis-?-vis the great reading are listed. In there, the statement "Al-sunnah qadiyat 3aly al-quran wa laysa al-quran bi-qadi 3aly al-sunnah" (i.e. The Sunnah abrogates/eliminates/judges the great reading but not vice-versa) is ascribed to an early authority but is probably Al-Darimi's own handiwork.
Sunnis or Ahl-Al-Sunna were in the minority until the Abbasid Caliph Al-Mutawakil adopted the Ahl Al-Sunna dogma as the official creed of the Abbasid Empire. Before that time, there were disputes between, for example, theologians of the Qadariyya, Murji3a, Rafi3a and Mu3tazila. On the other hand, the Ahl al-sunna, busily searching for Sunnahs, were out of their depth and constituted no match for them. Among these theologians Ahl al-sunna even acquired the derogatory nickname "7ashawiya" (those that stuff), predominantly because of their credulity with respect to collecting/stuffing large quantity of traditions. Ahl Al-Sunna were regarded as Ahl Al-Bid3a (the people of innovation of dogma). Thus, the ranks of Ahl al-sunna were rapidly swollen by anyone who wanted to promote a dogmatic idea and could produce a tradition to support it. Large numbers of traditionalists harboring one or more dogmatic ideas ("bid3a" joined their ranks. Various contemporary sources convey the impression that Ahl al-sunnah began to constitute the majority in the Abbasid Empire after the theological squabbles had been decided in their favor by Al-Mutawakil.
Shiism adds more requirements and that is why it came later, very much like yours which requires rejection of hadeeth and other stuff. So, while you and your group will not call me Muslim, I will not do the same to you. You are muslims but not Sunnis= not the default.
Sunnism adds far more requirements (and as you say "other stuff" than Shiism. Shia generally don't consider Hadiths as "wa7y" (divine inspiration) so they are not required to have faith in Hadiths. Indeed unlike Sunnis many Shia clergy do not put a high weight on Hadiths. On the other hand, Sunnis make having faith in Bukhari, Muslim, Nisaaii, etc. an absolute requirment. This is why religious decress have been issued by pretty much all Sunni authorities against those who reject Hadiths. On the other hand, you seldom hear such religous decrees against Hadith rejecters from Shia authorities.
As for calling me Muslim, unlike what you think this is not a label that you can name someone with or put it on their ID card. The true concept of a "muslim" (peacemaker) is something that one has to actually become in truth. It is not a label. Now you can happily call yourself Sunni but you will never become Sunni in truth since it is just a meaningless label and as I showed you above as a true concept "sunnah" means something totally different than what you take it to be.
Peace,
Ayman