Really?
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Salam,
You know Lobster, whether we agree or not does not matter much to me. To always agree isn't a highlight in life. But I just want to let you know that I truely appreciate your honesty. Thank you!
This is what I'm trying to convey. Not that I believe they are the same, but the type of thought process that Tay presents points towards this type of belief system. And that system is dangerous.peace...
Thank you! I try not to be too honest though. Actually, I don't really mind lying to people, as long as I'm not lying to myself. Sometimes I find that just to create a good argument I'm going against what I think, and I really don't like that.
Why is that system dangerous? Because we might become too arrogant?
I don't think man and god are the same thing, but god or part of god is inside us.
peace -
I agree completely, but I don't think experiencing heaven/hell in this world and our "points" being added up, so to speak, are mutually exclusive. I agree with both
Peace
Well....to me it doesn't make sense if whether you go to hell and heaven is decided by one point. 51/49 "good bias" doesn't make you truly good, does it?
But we really have no proof of what'll happen when we die. The only people who know are the ones who're dead. We can maybe guess what'll happen based on what we know already, but we don't know a lot about this life either. -
Well....to me it doesn't make sense if whether you go to hell and heaven is decided by one point. 51/49 "good bias" doesn't make you truly good, does it?
But we really have no proof of what'll happen when we die. The only people who know are the ones who're dead. We can maybe guess what'll happen based on what we know already, but we don't know a lot about this life either.Of course we don't truly know.
That's what I'm saying, I don't think it's two distinct places, because that seems unjust. And God repeatedly says no one will suffer the least injustice. The more good you do, the more you purify yourself in this life, the closer you are to God in this life and the same amount in the next. And same for the other way around. That is my opinion.
I don't understand what you mean by "Well....to me it doesn't make sense if whether you go to hell and heaven is decided by one point" or your 5149 reference.
Peace
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Peace M,
I'm not sure where I went wrong in expressing, but here it is in a nutshell...
Belief brings about conviction.
Wholehearted belief brings about courage, bravery, fearlessness, etc.
Wholehearted belief is attained through refinement/attunement (aka salat).That's it.
If that sounds like bush, or bin laden, or man-worship, or whatever, then so be it.
As for megalomania being cool, well, that's not what I quoted at all. I quoted you saying
I can understand the point of psychosis that would lead a person into thinking nothing is impossible... but then again... this type of megalomaniacal behaviour seems to be all the fashion in today's brand of pseudo spirituality.
...and thought it was cool.
Cool?Peace,
Tay -
Salam,
Why is that system dangerous? Because we might become too arrogant?
Not become too arrogant, it is too arrogant.
Wholehearted belief is attained through refinement/attunement (aka salat).
Not always Tay. There are folks who wholeheartedly believe in things even though do not perform any form of salat. It doesn't make them necessarily attuned to the Divine. But in the context of what was said before, what you said now makes much more sense.
When you believe wholeheartedly, and you are sure that what you're doing is the right thing, then you have tapped into the divine resource - and nothing seems impossible.
Many people are "sure" what they are doing is right, but it doesn't necessarily mean they, to use your words, "tapped into the divine resource".
peace
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Peace M,
Not always Tay. There are folks who wholeheartedly believe in things even though do not perform any form of salat. It doesn't make them necessarily attuned to the Divine. But in the context of what was said before, what you said now makes much more sense.
I agree with the first part, and I'm glad I was able to get my point across.
Many people are "sure" what they are doing is right, but it doesn't necessarily mean they, to use your words, "tapped into the divine resource".
I agree. That's why salat is key. It is a fundamental check-point, I believe. The divine resource confirms itself through salat.
Peace,
Tay -
I don't understand what you mean by "Well....to me it doesn't make sense if whether you go to hell and heaven is decided by one point" or your 5149 reference.
peace OM,
I wasn't referring to 5149, I was referring to the democratic way of deciding things. If out of 100 deeds, 51 are bad, you go to hell? Or if 51 are good, you go to heaven? That's a very mechanical way of deciding and the way us humans are (complicated), it wouldn't work.I really don't know what life is all about....I can't wait to die so I can find out.
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peace OM,
) I wasn't referring to 5149, I was referring to the democratic way of deciding things. If out of 100 deeds, 51 are bad, you go to hell? Or if 51 are good, you go to heaven? That's a very mechanical way of deciding and the way us humans are (complicated), it wouldn't work.I really don't know what life is all about....I can't wait to die so I can find out.
Peace Lobster
I don't think you understand what I'm saying. In my opinion, I don't think there are two distinct places like heaven and hell. There are infinite "levels" of heaven/hell is what I'm trying to get across (in my understanding of the quran). The quran implies this many times as well. If it were just two separate places, I'd agree with you.
I'm not saying that if people are +1 or +10,000, they go to the same place, that doesn't seem just. I'm saying for people who are +1, they get +1 "heaven." For people who are +10,000, they get +10,000 "heaven," because they did more good deeds (+10,000), so they became more purified, they became closer to God and that +10,000 closer to God-ness is their heaven. But for the +1 person, he/she still gets "heaven," only +1 of it.
Sorry to ramble, I hope I'm making sense.
Peace
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Peace Lobster
I don't think you understand what I'm saying. In my opinion, I don't think there are two distinct places like heaven and hell. There are infinite "levels" of heaven/hell is what I'm trying to get across (in my understanding of the quran). The quran implies this many times as well. If it were just two separate places, I'd agree with you.
I'm not saying that if people are +1 or +10,000, they go to the same place, that doesn't seem just. I'm saying for people who are +1, they get +1 "heaven." For people who are +10,000, they get +10,000 "heaven," because they did more good deeds (+10,000), so they became more purified, they became closer to God and that +10,000 closer to God-ness is their heaven. But for the +1 person, he/she still gets "heaven," only +1 of it.
Sorry to ramble, I hope I'm making sense.
Peace
This thought is also in the Sunni system, just for reference. A brief study of ahadeeth pertaining to the afterlife show varying degrees of good deeds, numerically.
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This thought is also in the Sunni system, just for reference. A brief study of ahadeeth pertaining to the afterlife show varying degrees of good deeds, numerically.
I wasn't aware. I derived this understanding from verses of the quran and common sense. I phrase it numerically because it's the most convenient way. Essentially, I am saying everyone will get the exact amount of hell/heaven they deserve, as the quran says.
Thank you for the knowledge regarding ahadith, I wasn't aware. Also, great posts in the other threads!
Peace
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Numerically as in good deeds = 7 or 70 ir 700 or 70,000 or 7x10^x times, bad deeds = -.
I believe the Quran also has something to say on this matter.
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I think that is a tautology.
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I will see, this is stuff I read into years ago.
But here is a gem of a hadeeth
Mujahid (Radi ALLAH Taala Unho) narrates from Ali (Radi ALLAH Taala Unho) that Nabi (Salallaho Alaihi Wasallam) said ?O Ali, he who prays 100 rakaat nawafil on the night of the 15th of Shabhan and in each rakaat reads Surat-Al-Fatiha once and reads the Surat ?Qul howallhu Ahad? (Surat-Al-Ikhlas) 11 times, Nabi (Salallaho Alaihi Wasallam) said O Ali whoever prays in this way on this night Allah (Azza Wa Jul) will fulfil all of his duas or needs whosoever desires it. And Allah (Azza Wa Jul) sends 70,000 angels that write good deeds and erase bad deeds for him and raises his status until the end of the year. And Allah (Azza Wa Jul) sends 70,000 angels to Jannat-e-Aden and 700,000 cities will be made there for him. Within those cities there will be such gardens and palaces that nobody has ever seen, or heard of, nor anyone of Allah?s (Azza Wa Jul) creation (makhlooq) has ever imagined. And if he dies prior to the end of the year he will die a shaheed and Allah (Azza Wa Jul) will (through His happiness) give 70 maidens of heaven for each of the reading of one letter of Surah Ikhlas.
(Ref Tafsir Roohul Bi?an, Volume 8. Alama Ismail Haqi Hanafi )Hear that Muslim women? You are going to get a few trillion maidens of heaven to satisfy your homosexual desire providing you pray 5 times a day with Surah Ikhlas. rotfl
Ah, the hadeeth, like Paris Hilton, bring joy and excitement into my otherwise mundane life.
Anyway, it is quite hard to get individual references, but hadeeth books are filled to the brim with things such as these
Volume 1, Book 11, Number 621
Narrated Abu Salama bin 'Abdur Rahman
Abu Huraira said, "I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'The reward of a prayer in congregation is twenty five times greater than that of a prayer offered by a person alone. The angels of the night and the angels of the day gather at the time of Fajr prayer.' " Abu Huraira then added, "Recite the Holy Book if you wish, for "Indeed, the recitation of the Qur'an in the early dawn (Fajr prayer) is ever witnessed." (17.1.
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar The reward of the congregational prayer is twenty seven times greater (than that of the prayer offered by a person alone).
Volume 3, Book 34, Number 330
Narrated Abu Huraira
Allah's Apostle said, "The congregational prayer of anyone amongst you is more than twenty (five or twenty seven) times in reward than his prayer in the market or in his house, for if he performs ablution completely and then goes to the mosque with the sole intention of performing the prayer, and nothing urges him to proceed to the mosque except the prayer, then, on every step which he takes towards the mosque, he will be raised one degree or one of his sins will be forgiven. The angels will keep on asking Allah's forgiveness and blessings for everyone of you so long as he keeps sitting at his praying place. The angels will say, 'O Allah, bless him! O Allah, be merciful to him!' as long as he does not do Hadath or a thing which gives trouble to the other." The Prophet further said, "One is regarded in prayer so long as one is waiting for the prayer."
Please remember that your justification for that belief should never be based on hearsay or baseless ahadeeth or conjecture or otherwise.
002.245
YUSUFALI Who is he that will loan to Allah a beautiful loan, which Allah will double unto his credit and multiply many times? It is Allah that giveth (you) Want or plenty, and to Him shall be your return.
PICKTHAL Who is it that will lend unto Allah a goodly loan, so that He may give it increase manifold? Allah straiteneth and enlargeth. Unto Him ye will return.
SHAKIR Who is it that will offer of Allah a goodly gift, so He will multiply it to him manifold, and Allah straitens and amplifies, and you shall be returned to Him.057.010
YUSUFALI And what cause have ye why ye should not spend in the cause of Allah?- For to Allah belongs the heritage of the heavens and the earth. Not equal among you are those who spent (freely) and fought, before the Victory, (with those who did so later). Those are higher in rank than those who spent (freely) and fought afterwards. But to all has Allah promised a goodly (reward). And Allah is well acquainted with all that ye do.
PICKTHAL And what aileth you that ye spend not in the way of Allah when unto Allah belongeth the inheritance of the heavens and the earth? Those who spent and fought before the victory are not upon a level (with the rest of you). Such are greater in rank than those who spent and fought afterwards. Unto each hath Allah promised good. And Allah is Informed of what ye do.
SHAKIR And what reason have you that you should not spend in Allah's way? And Allah's is the inheritance of the heavens and the earth, not alike among you are those who spent before the victory and fought (and those who did not) they are more exalted in rank than those who spent and fought afterwards; and Allah has promised good to all; and Allah is Aware of what you do.057.011
YUSUFALI Who is he that will Loan to Allah a beautiful loan? for (Allah) will increase it manifold to his credit, and he will have (besides) a liberal Reward.
PICKTHAL Who is he that will lend unto Allah a goodly loan, that He may double it for him and his may be a rich reward?
SHAKIR Who is there that will offer to Allah a good gift so He will double it for him, and he shall have an excellent reward.057.012
YUSUFALI One Day shalt thou see the believing men and the believing women- how their Light runs forward before them and by their right hands (their greeting will be) "Good News for you this Day! Gardens beneath which flow rivers! to dwell therein for aye! This is indeed the highest Achievement!"
PICKTHAL On the day when thou (Muhammad) wilt see the believers, men and women, their light shining forth before them and on their right hands, (and wilt hear it said unto them) Glad news for you this day Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein ye are immortal. That is the supreme triumph.
SHAKIR On that day you will see the faithful men and the faithful women-- their light running before them and on their right hand-- good news for you today gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide therein, that is the grand achievement.057.018
YUSUFALI For those who give in Charity, men and women, and loan to Allah a Beautiful Loan, it shall be increased manifold (to their credit), and they shall have (besides) a liberal reward.064.017
YUSUFALI If ye loan to Allah, a beautiful loan, He will double it to your (credit), and He will grant you Forgiveness for Allah is most Ready to appreciate (service), Most Forbearing,-
PICKTHAL If ye lend unto Allah a goodly loan, He will double it for you and will forgive you, for Allah is Responsive, Clement,
SHAKIR If you set apart for Allah a goodly portion, He will double it for you and forgive you; and Allah is the Multiplier (of rewards), Forbearing,064.018
YUSUFALI Knower of what is open, Exalted in Might, Full of Wisdom.
PICKTHAL Knower of the Invisible and the Visible, the Mighty, the Wise.
SHAKIR The Knower of the unseen and the seen, the Mighty, the Wise.073.020
YUSUFALI Thy Lord doth know that thou standest forth (to prayer) nigh two-thirds of the night, or half the night, or a third of the night, and so doth a party of those with thee. But Allah doth appoint night and day in due measure He knoweth that ye are unable to keep count thereof. So He hath turned to you (in mercy) read ye, therefore, of the Qur'an as much as may be easy for you. He knoweth that there may be (some) among you in ill-health; others travelling through the land, seeking of Allah's bounty; yet others fighting in Allah's Cause, read ye, therefore, as much of the Qur'an as may be easy (for you); and establish regular Prayer and give regular Charity; and loan to Allah a Beautiful Loan. And whatever good ye send forth for your souls ye shall find it in Allah's Presence,- yea, better and greater, in Reward and seek ye the Grace of Allah for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL Lo! thy Lord knoweth how thou keepest vigil sometimes nearly two-thirds of the night, or (sometimes) half or a third thereof, as do a party of those with thee. Allah measureth the night and the day. He knoweth that ye count it not, and turneth unto you in mercy. Recite, then, of the Qur'an that which is easy for you. He knoweth that there are sick folk among you, while others travel in the land in search of Allah's bounty, and others (still) are fighting for the cause of Allah. So recite of it that which is easy (for you), and establish worship and pay the poor-due, and (so) lend unto Allah a goodly loan. Whatsoever good ye send before you for your souls, ye will find it with Allah, better and greater in the recompense. And seek forgiveness of Allah. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR Surely your Lord knows that you pass in prayer nearly two-thirds of the night, and (sometimes) half of it, and (sometimes) a third of it, and (also) a party of those with you; and Allah measures the night and the day. He knows that you are not able to do it, so He has turned to you (mercifully), therefore read what is easy of the Quran. He knows that there must be among you sick, and others who travel in the land seeking of the bounty of Allah, and others who fight in Allah's way, therefore read as much of it as is easy (to you), and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and offer to Allah a goodly gift, and whatever of good you send on beforehand for yourselves, you will find it with Allah; that is best and greatest in reward; and ask forgiveness of Allah; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.In the Quran, I believe it is more of a "loan" than anything else. I need to refresh my understanding.