Hi an ex-Muslim
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Peace,
Even if Quran was telling to hit the obidient wife, who have said that we "MUST" do it? But I have hard to believe that God want to create violence into the marriage.
Why else we always try to teach kids that it's best to solve problems by avoid violence and instead use your mouth to defend yourself.
Majidah
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salam comic dancer
i suggest you find out who you are first then from where you came from and why, before trying to get to where you want to go, and how to get there. Then, you will have no con whateverfusion as to what you want. Please do not get me wrong, i too do not believe in any organised religion. whatever -
Hi Zenje, well I wrote this recently - I hope it's not too long and boring
I was born a Muslim and started practicing at the age of twenty. For the next twenty eight years I was devout and committed to Islam. I completed a BA in Arabic and Islamic Studies at the University of *******, became President of the Islamic Society, was Amir of a Da?wah group and edited its magazine ? ?The *******? ? wrote four books for Muslims and spent fifteen years as a teacher at a Muslim school. But events in my life had cause me to doubt. The turning point was 2001, when my father died, my marriage broke up and the attacks of September the 11th - in that order. It threw me out of my comfort zone and I started questioning things I had taken for granted. Little by little doubts began creeping in. At first I tried to suppress them and reacted to criticism of Islam with denial, anger and blame. I denied there was anything wrong, felt hyper-sensitive to any criticism and blamed the West for provoking and creating problems.
When I did eventually accept that Muslims had to take responsibility for the problems we faced, I still couldn?t accept that Islam itself was to blame. It was the way Islam was being interpreted that was the problem. I started arguing for a reinterpretation and reform of traditional views, but instead of easing my conscience, that only highlighted the futility and dishonesty of such views. Finally I tried to tell myself that although my rational mind found it difficult to believe certain things in Islam, there must be explanations beyond my capacity to understand and that ?God knows best?. The safest and wisest option was to ?Hold fast to the rope of Allah?. I reckoned I had nothing to lose and everything to gain by remaining a believer and so I went through the motions of being a ?good? Muslim, in the hope that my faith would return, but it only made me depressed and lose all motivation ? one can pretend for only so long. The problem is that one cannot choose to believe. Either one does or not and if there is a God, the last thing he would have wanted me to do was to ?pretend? to believe in something that I didn?t.
Shortly before my 48 birthday I knew I no longer believed in Islam anymore. Accepting that I was no longer a Muslim was an extremely difficult thing to do. No one can possibly know what it is like unless they have been through it. The feeling of fear and isolation is enormous and the sense of loss and freefall, with nothing to grab onto, is terrifying. I also I feared I would be associated with bigots and xenophobes who hate Islam and Muslims. The fact that I no longer believed in Islam didn?t mean I had suddenly turned into a hater of Islam or Muslims. I knew that Islam brought a great deal of guidance, comfort and worthy values to the lives of millions of people. I knew Muslims were good, decent, and compassionate people. How could I possibly hate Muslims when family and even my own children were Muslims? When I speak to my older children about what I think, I tell them they must find out for themselves what they believe and if they feel happy being Muslims then that is what they should be. I certainly do not feel the need to pass on my own beliefs concerning God and religion to them, something I felt it was my duty to do when I was a Muslim.
I do not believe in forcing my beliefs on anyone, but I do believe one should have the courage to honestly examine the beliefs that are central to one?s life and guide one?s actions. If one is truly satisfied with them, then they should be fully embraced with one?s heart and mind, but if they do not stand up to close scrutiny, then they should be discarded. Life is too short to allow it to be dictated by beliefs one does not truly believe.
)
As far as trying to find a new interpretation of Islam, trust me you came to the right spot. rotfl
Sorry y'all but I had to say it!
Wow, this must have been tough on you. I wish i could take the pain of life away but none of us can. I guess the best way is to think of the suffereing others go through. Life is tough. Its hard to understand its purpose. But most of the time the people who suffer and pain more in this life I found where the better ones. I can tell from your presence here that God cares about you. Maybe you were heading the wrong way or maybe he wants you to be around people who fit you better.
Maybe you can tell us about your marriage. Unless you feel its personal.
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Oh no, not another salafi burnout! &
I was never a Salafi.
But if it makes it easier for you to handle that way - be my guest.
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Hello Ayman,
If the great reading predicted E=MC^2, would that make you accept it?
We can all make up all sorts of hypothetical questions but at one point, we have to face reality.
I?m baffled to correlate any relationship between idrib and E=MC^2. The reality is that the word "idrib" exists in the Quran, E=MC^2 doesn't and that becomes hypothetical. It's a fallacious tu quoque argument.Firstly, I do reject the meaningless label Quran. The word "quran" as used in this book is clearly a common noun (a concept) and not a label. It is of the form "fu3lan". So similar to forms like "sultan" (intense/great authority), it literally means "intense/great reading".
You can reject or accept what you like, the fact remains that since 1400+ years, your "intense/great reading" has been given the title of Quran as its identity, distinguishing from all other books. There's no way out of this. Besides, since when did the Quran change its meaning from reading to great reading to intense/great reading? Other than reading, Quran also means, compilation, collection, recitation and they "fit" in all respective verses.In fact, even the worst translations do provide interesting reading.
That's an outrageous claim coming out of someone who untimidly defends a book, else you would gladly accept the interesting idrib to mean beat (as worst translation). But because it involves beating wives and as embarrassing as it is being ?god?s? words, it just can't possibly be and hence must be changed and the blame game upon all interpreters/translators. But then one has to make adjustments by current manipulative techniques to all other ?violent? words as well which would be rather difficult, unless God wills.Also, one can accept many man-made books. For example, I have no problem accepting many of the academic books that I studied. So rejecting or accepting a certain book has no bearing on whether it is from the god or not.
Quran IS an ancient man-made book (nothing less and a little more). Other than some passages describing Muhammad's times, much of it is repeated summarized history, collected and compiled by some scribes taken from written parchments and oral dictations.To know the answer, we have to look within us and at the world around us. What is truth and what is falsehood?
To study an ancient book today, one must study in its perspective historical setting, reflect upon it and implement certain discourses if applicable. One learns from the past to live a modified life in spectral retrospective appearance and keeping in mind that the main purpose of life is SURVIVAL.Truth is reality. There is no such thing as "falsehood" in the universe.
That's another touchy subject and may require pages. You've already declared idribu to mean beat as "false".People have also turned the great reading into an idol that they called Quran.
The readings are collections of narrated material patched together and rearranged to form a book and given the title of Quran. The Quran became "God's" words, an idol. In similar fashion as an example, if a few people got together to collect every post (readings) of a pious intelligent XYZ, rearrange and patch them together to form a book and title it. Viola, we get to read XYZ's "intense/great reading" inspired by figment of imagination.The very existence of Hadiths and pagan rituals in so-called Islam speaks about the incorruptability of that book. They had to readjust and invent Hadiths and rename things to match the great reading because they couldn't change it. Our imagination couldn't touch it. Indeed, all the "jinn"/imagination/fantasy and humans cannot bring the likes of this book.
I doubt that hadiths were invented. But as such, the same thing can be said about Quran due to its compilation methods. One cannot defeat and knock off history in totality in order to empower one book over all others. The book Quran in itself is history and several other books prior to Quran have been "preserved". In theology and history classes, especially from Islamic standpoint, all stories detailed in great lengths are extracted from hadiths, not from Quran. There is nothing in the Quran that was not known already.How do I know that the great reading is from the god? Everything I know about myself, my purpose and life itself and what I am telling you is from the wisdom in that book which mirrors what I actually see in me and around me. This is how I know the great reading is the truth and all truth (whether in the great reading or not) is from the god.
There is enough wisdom contained in millions of books, movies & Internet today and infinitely available in ALL of Reality/Nature. Perhaps the Quran was good enough for the Arab desert environment where books, movies, TV, Internet, etc., were alien to people therein. The notion or concept of God can be superimposed and imagined in exact similar fashion onto other entities. Take any or all attributes of God and relate them to Nature, Reality, Energy, Time or even Space and you will find no difference, unless ofcourse it was a pagan physical one. Take you best shot.Peace!
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Hello Ayman,
I?m baffled to correlate any relationship between idrib and E=MC^2. The reality is that the word "idrib" exists in the Quran, E=MC^2 doesn't and that becomes hypothetical. It's a fallacious tu quoque argument.
You can reject or accept what you like, the fact remains that since 1400+ years, your "intense/great reading" has been given the title of Quran as its identity, distinguishing from all other books. There's no way out of this. Besides, since when did the Quran change its meaning from reading to great reading to intense/great reading? Other than reading, Quran also means, compilation, collection, recitation and they "fit" in all respective verses.
That's an outrageous claim coming out of someone who untimidly defends a book, else you would gladly accept the interesting idrib to mean beat (as worst translation). But because it involves beating wives and as embarrassing as it is being ?god?s? words, it just can't possibly be and hence must be changed and the blame game upon all interpreters/translators. But then one has to make adjustments by current manipulative techniques to all other ?violent? words as well which would be rather difficult, unless God wills.
Quran IS an ancient man-made book (nothing less and a little more). Other than some passages describing Muhammad's times, much of it is repeated summarized history, collected and compiled by some scribes taken from written parchments and oral dictations.
To study an ancient book today, one must study in its perspective historical setting, reflect upon it and implement certain discourses if applicable. One learns from the past to live a modified life in spectral retrospective appearance and keeping in mind that the main purpose of life is SURVIVAL.
That's another touchy subject and may require pages. You've already declared idribu to mean beat as "false".
The readings are collections of narrated material patched together and rearranged to form a book and given the title of Quran. The Quran became "God's" words, an idol. In similar fashion as an example, if a few people got together to collect every post (readings) of a pious intelligent XYZ, rearrange and patch them together to form a book and title it. Viola, we get to read XYZ's "intense/great reading" inspired by figment of imagination.
I doubt that hadiths were invented. But as such, the same thing can be said about Quran due to its compilation methods. One cannot defeat and knock off history in totality in order to empower one book over all others. The book Quran in itself is history and several other books prior to Quran have been "preserved". In theology and history classes, especially from Islamic standpoint, all stories detailed in great lengths are extracted from hadiths, not from Quran. There is nothing in the Quran that was not known already.
There is enough wisdom contained in millions of books, movies & Internet today and infinitely available in ALL of Reality/Nature. Perhaps the Quran was good enough for the Arab desert environment where books, movies, TV, Internet, etc., were alien to people therein. The notion or concept of God can be superimposed and imagined in exact similar fashion onto other entities. Take any or all attributes of God and relate them to Nature, Reality, Energy, Time or even Space and you will find no difference, unless ofcourse it was a pagan physical one. Take you best shot.Peace!
Lets look at it again
"Among His signs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquility and contentment with each other. He places in your heart love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are signs for people who think." (3021)
Now lets look at the verse given by the traditionalist sects
4.34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means For Allah is Most High, great
Now the paranthesis are bogus, they are fabrication of the verse. There is no "first", "then" , "and last" or "lightly". Thats explaining it to make the hadiths work.
Lets see what it exactly says
4.34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them , refuse to share their beds, and strike them, but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means For Allah is Most High, Most Great.
So the Quranic verse implies all three must be done together. Now the first part says "ye fear loyalty" implies that no evidence is there but its based on fear or suspicion. Now how can you admonish someone and beat them at the same time? And over a suspicion or fear? Yet the Quran tells us
024.004
YUSUFALI And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses ,- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after for such men are wicked transgressors;-Also
024.006
YUSUFALI And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth;024.007
YUSUFALI And the fifth that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie024.008
YUSUFALI But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times By Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie;024.009
YUSUFALI And the fifth should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth.Now here it tell us when a person has taken an oath againt his wife she is allowed to make an oath herself. And if someone accuses a woman he has to bring 4 witnesses to back it. So how can the Quran accept a women to get beaten over a fear and a suspicion? The verse we are talking about is not even about an accusation yet the Quran does not even mention that the person should swear by oath or bring witnesses but somehow he can lay jis hands on her. This does not make sense. The reality the Quranic verse implies that if a person has a fear and not an accusation he should do all three together. Admonish(warn) and abstain from her in the bed and strike her or them(Idribuhuna).
The problem comes from the word "Idribuhunne" which we used to translate as "beat them". The root of this word is "DaRaBa". If you look at any Arabic dictionary you will find a long list of meanings ascribed to this word. That list is one of the longest list in whole Arabic dictionary. It can be said that "DaRaBa" is the number-one multi-meaning word in Arabic. It has so many different meanings, we can find numerous different meanings ascribed to it in the Quran.
To travel, to get out 3156; 4101; 3844; 7320; 2273
To strike 260,73; 7160; 812; 2077; 2431; 2663; 3793; 474
To beat 850; 4727
To set up 4358; 5713
To give (examples) 1424,45; 1675,76,112; 1832,45; 2435; 3028,58; 3678; 3927,29; 4317; 5921; 6610,11
To take away, to ignore 435
To condemn 261
To seal, to draw over 1811
To cover 2431
To explain 1317
Now if you were to warn someone about her ways that you feel could lead to something or makes you fearful that it could and you then were told to seperate yourself from her in the bed and then also strike them. Then what it seems to me to mean is avoid them even outside the bed. Since all he has is a fear and a suspicion and no evidence either himself or others. So how can she defend herself from mere suspicion and fear? So it has to mean something else. The traditionalist make it sound the Quran says first warn, then if that does not work then avoid them in the bed and if that does not work finally beat them lightly. Now they translate it that way because its the only way beating can make sense since you can't warn and beat someone at the same time. Anyways its mere suspicion and fear. Yet the Quran states even in the case when the wife has been accused and even if 3 witnesses are brought forward she can not be expected to pay a price unless a fourth is brought so how can she then does so over mere suspicion.
Yes I respect the historicity of the Ist community of the Ummah but even then its still does not make sense. She can't even repent because what is she going to repent about? For causing fear or suspicion?
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Peace Bigmo,
Thank you for your explanation of 434 and the word DRB. I have one comment.
To strike 260,73; 7160; 812; 2077; 2431; 2663; 3793; 474
To beat 850; 4727In 260 and 7160 the word doesn't mean strike. Moses separated the rock with his staff and water broke through.
273 can be understood in the light of 2260 and there is no striking there.
812 again the word means separate. I don't think that some invisible beings were hitting anyone. On the other hand "controllers" separating the extermities means that the people couldn't properly control their extremities.
2077 doesn't mean "strike a road" but "split/separate a road". Same goes for 2663 where we hear about the sea separating with each part as a mountain.
2431 there are two "darab" and both don't mean strike. The first means to cover (i.e. separate from sight) and the second means to separate their legs. Please see brother Warner's post for his excellent explanation of this matter.
3793 talks about breaking apart the idols not striking.
474 talks about separating/taking the prisoners not hitting the prisoners (please see 491, 492, 589, 583, 9013, 2177, 960 for the meaning of "riqab". In fact the whole 474 talks about taking prisoners of war and how to deal with them.
850 and 4727 talk about separating/blocking the front and back of the unappreciative, i.e. there is no escape from the fire.
Peace,
Ayman
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Hello Ayman,
812 again the word means separate. I don't think that some invisible beings were hitting anyone. On the other hand "controllers" separating the extermities means that the people couldn't properly control their extremities.
Well, if an invisible being can visit and shake up Muhammad in a cave without anyone else noticing, can transform into humans, can snatch lives and kick butts of disbelievers and guard hell and heaven, can throw terror into the hearts of disbelievers, and can carry out inumerous commands of their yet another supreme invisible boss, I'm sure they must have striken off necks/heads and fingers/hands of those who disbelieved in the special convoy sanctioned by the very supreme invisible boss of the invisible being.Now, I sincerely don't have any idea what "controllers" you are talking about seperating what "extermities"? Can you at least interpret the entire verse (812) word for word in accordance to your modified version to better understand your reasonings?
812 When your lord inspires to the angels, "that I am with you, so affirm those who believed, I will throw terror into the hearts of disbelievers, then strike their necks and strike every finger of them. elektro hail
Peace!
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Hello Ayman,
Well, if an invisible being can visit and shake up Muhammad in a cave without anyone else noticing, can transform into humans, can snatch lives and kick butts of disbelievers and guard hell and heaven, can throw terror into the hearts of disbelievers, and can carry out inumerous commands of their yet another supreme invisible boss, I'm sure they must have striken off necks/heads and fingers/hands of those who disbelieved in the special convoy sanctioned by the very supreme invisible boss of the invisible being.Now, I sincerely don't have any idea what "controllers" you are talking about seperating what "extermities"? Can you at least interpret the entire verse (812) word for word in accordance to your modified version to better understand your reasonings?
812 When your lord inspires to the angels, "that I am with you, so affirm those who believed, I will throw terror into the hearts of disbelievers, then strike their necks and strike every finger of them. elektro hail
Peace!
The idribuhunna however did not explain what is meant by it. If it was beat them lightly it could have said idribuhunna darban khafifan. Meaning beat them lightly. That would have ensured the daraba hear means to beat physically. However just strike them could mean anything. The verse is about suspicion and not accusation and yet even in accusation the Quran asked for witnesses to back it.
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Hello Ayman,
Well, if an invisible being can visit and shake up Muhammad in a cave without anyone else noticing, can transform into humans, can snatch lives and kick butts of disbelievers and guard hell and heaven, can throw terror into the hearts of disbelievers, and can carry out inumerous commands of their yet another supreme invisible boss, I'm sure they must have striken off necks/heads and fingers/hands of those who disbelieved in the special convoy sanctioned by the very supreme invisible boss of the invisible being.Now, I sincerely don't have any idea what "controllers" you are talking about seperating what "extermities"? Can you at least interpret the entire verse (812) word for word in accordance to your modified version to better understand your reasonings?
812 When your lord inspires to the angels, "that I am with you, so affirm those who believed, I will throw terror into the hearts of disbelievers, then strike their necks and strike every finger of them. elektro hail
Peace!
Please tell me what you have been smoking so I can go out and purchase some of this fine product.
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Please tell me what you have been smoking so I can go out and purchase some of this fine product.
Such fine products were blessed from above. Check with Muhammad or Allah for a purchase and make sure to negotiate the price. In the beginning, this product tasted deicious but later the smell became horrible and had to sell it off for a cheap price. -
Peace Bigmo,
850 and 4727 talk about separating/blocking the front and back of the unappreciative, i.e. there is no escape from the fire.
Peace,
Ayman
The actual Ayaas are as follows
850
4727
Would you please let me know where did you get this meaning of "BLOCKING" for "dharaba" ??
I will appreciate .
Thanks in advance -
The actual Ayaas are as follows
850
4727
Would you please let me know where did you get this meaning of "BLOCKING" for "dharaba" ??
I will appreciate .
Thanks in advanceBut here the verse explains strike what. Then we know the meaning is beat. As in hit. But the verses about wives did not say strike what. If it said strike them lkightly, then we would know its meaning. Anyways the angels are hitting those people for what they DID and not what someone fears or is suspicious about. You can't punish someone over suspicion. The Quran say
49.6 O you who believe! If a rebellious evil person comes to you with a news, verify it, lest you harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful to what you have done.
49.12 O you who believe! Avoid much suspicions, indeed some suspicions are sins. And spy not, neither backbite one another. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? You would hate it . And fear God. Verily, God is the One Who accepts repentance, Most Merciful. hail