To Obey the Prophet(PBUH) is obligatory to every Muslim
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My brother,
- regarding the preservation of the quran As far as I know, historical records point towards the preservation of the quran, i.e. there are not different versions of the quran in terms of the message contained in the text, only minor differences in terms of spelling etc (as far as I know). Call it whatever you want, proof or not proof. All I'm saying is that there seems to be no reasons thinking the quran is not preserved. That's what I'm saying. Nothing points to the contrary... be that proof or not.
- If there was clear proof of anything pertaining to religion, then wouldn't everyone believe in that thing? I don't know of any proof that would convince everyone that the quran is from God. Most people don't give a damn about proof anyway, they just follow what their parents followed and cling to that no matter what is presented. I believe the quran is from God due to all that is written in it. Like I have already said, I don't know of anything that points toward that the quran is not from God. I'm not in a position of saying whether there are proofs or not. Maybe there are, but I haven't found them?
so to your two questions about proof I can't say yes or no... i don't know. But according to me, everything points toward that the quran is from God and is preserved. Nothing points to the contrary. Do you understand what I mean?
- Why don't you answer some of my questions aswell... I'm answering all your as well as I can. Let's make it reciprocal, give and take.
Dear ;
Let me put it another way.you were born and during your childhood you were introduced with Quran as a devine book.
-Did Quran itself tell you that it is a devine book or
-someone else told you
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LEOXYZ
Dear ;
Let me put it another way.you were born and during your childhood you were introduced with Quran as a devine book.
-Did Quran itself tell you that it is a devine book or
-someone else told you
??I was born - yes
Was I introduced to the quran as a divine book during my childhood? - NO, not at all!
Did the quran tell you its a divine book? - Yes, haven't you read it??
Did someone else tell you? - No-one preached it to me, or wanted me to believe it.So...You don't feel like answering any of my questions? Ok then.... thanks. giveup
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LEOXYZ
I was born - yes
Was I introduced to the quran as a divine book during my childhood? - NO, not at all!
Did the quran tell you its a divine book? - Yes, haven't you read it??
Did someone else tell you? - No-one preached it to me, or wanted me to believe it.So...You don't feel like answering any of my questions? Ok then.... thanks. giveup
You are very lucky that Quran walked to you from shelf and came forward and told you how to read it and what message does it contain ?
All these miracles can happen to a "Quranist" only
& & -
You are very lucky that Quran walked to you from shelf and came forward and told you how to read it and what message does it contain ?
All these miracles can happen to a "Quranist" only
& &That's what you understood from his story? You're one of a kind.
giveup -
Peace Leo
What do you think about the following verse in the debate
on the created and the uncreated Quran.8119 In nahu_ laqaulu rasu_lin karim
The Quran came to us and to the rest of mankind from the Prophet as his speech from his mouth. Since it is human speech is this not created?
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Peace Leo
What do you think about the following verse in the debate
on the created and the uncreated Quran.8119 In nahu_ laqaulu rasu_lin karim
The Quran came to us and to the rest of mankind from the Prophet as his speech from his mouth. Since it is human speech is this not created?
Please put actual Quranic text .Neither translation nor transliteration.
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Salaam all,
Innahu laawlu rasoolun kareem= and he is the saying of a messenger.
What is the saying of the messenger
1- The words that the messenger said himself or herself.2- The words of the sender carried by the messenger because this is the job of the messenger, to carry and explain the message.
So, in other places of the Qur'an, it mentioned that the words of the Qur'an are God's words. Therefore meaning number 1 does not apply to the Qur'an and number 2 does apply.
However, this brings another aspect. If one wants to take the more encompassing meaning in consideration, then the words of the messenger that are his, and not God's, are still very important to listen and understand. This meaning still applies for the Aya does not put limits on the meaning or it's range.
In fact, there is no gain for the people of hadeeth to believe in an uncreated Qur'an. Why? because if the Qur'an was created in Muhammad, then everything Muhammad says will be Qur'an or equal to it or undifferentiated from it, including your much hated hadeeth.
take care all and have a great day.
Hussein
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Salaam all,
Innahu laawlu rasoolun kareem= and he is the saying of a messenger.
What is the saying of the messenger
1- The words that the messenger said himself or herself.2- The words of the sender carried by the messenger because this is the job of the messenger, to carry and explain the message.
So, in other places of the Qur'an, it mentioned that the words of the Qur'an are God's words. Therefore meaning number 1 does not apply to the Qur'an and number 2 does apply.
However, this brings another aspect. If one wants to take the more encompassing meaning in consideration, then the words of the messenger that are his, and not God's, are still very important to listen and understand. This meaning still applies for the Aya does not put limits on the meaning or it's range.
In fact, there is no gain for the people of hadeeth to believe in an uncreated Qur'an. Why? because if the Qur'an was created in Muhammad, then everything Muhammad says will be Qur'an or equal to it or undifferentiated from it, including your much hated hadeeth.
take care all and have a great day.
Hussein
Thank you. You have stated quite succinctly that the role of the messenger is precisely that, to bring a message from another source.
Now, the role of the nabi, that is a different story.
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Salaam all,
Innahu laawlu rasoolun kareem= and he is the saying of a messenger.
What is the saying of the messenger
1- The words that the messenger said himself or herself.2- The words of the sender carried by the messenger because this is the job of the messenger, to carry and explain the message.
So, in other places of the Qur'an, it mentioned that the words of the Qur'an are God's words. Therefore meaning number 1 does not apply to the Qur'an and number 2 does apply.
However, this brings another aspect. If one wants to take the more encompassing meaning in consideration, then the words of the messenger that are his, and not God's, are still very important to listen and understand. This meaning still applies for the Aya does not put limits on the meaning or it's range.
In fact, there is no gain for the people of hadeeth to believe in an uncreated Qur'an. Why? because if the Qur'an was created in Muhammad, then everything Muhammad says will be Qur'an or equal to it or undifferentiated from it, including your much hated hadeeth.
take care all and have a great day.
Hussein
Salaam Hussein
I appreciate you for answering my post while not being arrogant like satan who refused to comply since he assumed he was superior. Also for not being a hypocrite using transliteration as and when one wants and rejecting it when the question can not be answered. Thank you for understanding that no one in this forum is posting original quranic text. Hope you understand 100% members in this forum can read and understand the verse numbers and the transliteration whereas only a small percentage understand Arabic text, numbers and meaning and even if I post the Arabic text according to the followers of fabricated holy hadeeth books even their ?holy prophet? could not have read it since he was illiterate.
Like you I do not get a kick accepting or rejecting the uncreated quran .But I am not prepared to blindly accept this because some imam told this and its in such and such a book. I want to verify the truth from the Quran.
While I like your line of argument on this subject will you be able to give me reference/verses from the Qyran for it being ?word of God?.
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Salaam all,
Innahu laawlu rasoolun kareem= and he is the saying of a messenger.
What is the saying of the messenger
1- The words that the messenger said himself or herself.2- The words of the sender carried by the messenger because this is the job of the messenger, to carry and explain the message.
So, in other places of the Qur'an, it mentioned that the words of the Qur'an are God's words. Therefore meaning number 1 does not apply to the Qur'an and number 2 does apply.
However, this brings another aspect. If one wants to take the more encompassing meaning in consideration, then the words of the messenger that are his, and not God's, are still very important to listen and understand. This meaning still applies for the Aya does not put limits on the meaning or it's range.
In fact, there is no gain for the people of hadeeth to believe in an uncreated Qur'an. Why? because if the Qur'an was created in Muhammad, then everything Muhammad says will be Qur'an or equal to it or undifferentiated from it, including your much hated hadeeth.
take care all and have a great day.
Hussein
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Would love to see these words autenticated by himself. Seeing that was 1400 years ago, very unlikely.
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7516 Do not move your tongue with it to make haste.
La tuharrik bihi lisanaka litaAAjala bihi
(7516)
7517 It is for Us to gather it into a compilation.
Inna AAalayna jamAAahu waquranahu
(7517)
7518 So when We compile it, you shall follow its compilation.
Faitha qaranahu faittabiAA quranahu
(751
7519 Then it is for Us to explain it.
Thumma inna AAalayna bayanahu
(7519)
including your much hated hadeeth.
Damn you are robotic. Not many, if any hate all hadeeth, but most of its because its full of garbage making Muhammad seem like a terrorist, pedophile, and an evil evil man.
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Please turn on the brain. As far as we are concerned, the Quran comes into play within the bounds of time. There was no "Quran" prior to Muhammad (ref 4612, 26196-200), though there was, of course, deen, kitab, etc. It is part of the original scripture also (34).
Something within time must have an origin.
Anyway, let's argue over whether the Quran was created or not, an incredibly pressing issue indeed.
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Salaam all,
Warner, thanks for you kind words and polite demeanor. Here is an Aya that talks about God's words
Wain ahadun mina almushrikeena istajaraka faajirhu hatta yasmaAAa kalama Allahi thumma ablighhu mamanahu thalika biannahum qawmun la yaAAlamoona96 If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.
DARgento,
- Would love to see these words autenticated by himself. Seeing that was 1400 years ago, very unlikely.
Can you authenticate that the Qur'an is the word of God? How and Why? How can you be sure that no additions nor subtractions happened to it?
7517 It is for Us to gather it into a compilation.
Inna AAalayna jamAAahu waquranahu
(7517)
7518 So when We compile it, you shall follow its compilation.
Faitha qaranahu faittabiAA quranahu
(751
7519 Then it is for Us to explain it.
Thumma inna AAalayna bayanahu
(7519)
The collection. When God says that He will collect it then it carries more than one possibility
1- God himself will collect it. We have no evidence of the Qur'an being collected out of thin air.
2- God collects it through means and those means will include people. If that is the case, then you will need hadeeth that will explain to you how it was collected. Why? because hadeeth is the only history of the time.
The explanation
When God says that He will explain it, then it will be one of two again
1- God will explain it Himself directly to us. Well, neither you nor me have received direct communication from God. The messenger has.
2- God explains it through means of explanation. One of those means of explanation is the messenger himself as mentioned on numerous occasions in the Qur'an.Damn you are robotic. Not many, if any hate all hadeeth, but most of its because its full of garbage making Muhammad seem like a terrorist, pedophile, and an evil evil man.
Really?! Why do you not then fast or pray like Sunnis and Shias. The Sunna there is very strong. If you do not accept those, then you are playing with words above.
OPF, The fact that the Qur'an comes at a point in time does not stop it from being uncreated or being God's words. God can act in time and out of time, since He is not limited by time. Also, I was not the one who brought the issue of the uncreated Qur'an. One of you did in order to ridicule Sunnis and I responded. That person and you all have stepped outside the Qur'an to make the Qur'an created when nothing in the Qur'an says that it was.
If you believe that the Qur'an is created, then why did God leave this detail, if you believe that the Qur'an is totally detailed?
Take care all and have a great day.
Hussein
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I want to know whether God has a left foot, but this is also left out in the fully detailed Quran. Hmph. Perhaps it was left out because it is a ridiculous argument, one that distracts people from the right path, a baseless argument.
Well, neither you nor me have received direct communication from God.
God has multiple methods of communication. The word you meant presumeably was inspiration, not communication. What language did God tell things to "come together", in 4111? In what language does God say "Be" and there it is? Is God restricted to Arabic when the previous scripture was revealed in Hewbrew and possibly Aramaic? Languages are manmade and evolve over time and eventually become completely unintelligible to two people who originated from the first - exactly the case with Semitic languages, is it not?
God can act in time and out of time, since He is not limited by time.
Now we are getting to the unseen. Please explain why an omnipotent being would wish to act within time. Being within time is very illogical. A very common fallacy of logic used by people to "disprove" God is to ascribe human limitation.
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The collection. When God says that He will collect it then it carries more than one possibility
1- God himself will collect it. We have no evidence of the Qur'an being collected out of thin air.
2- God collects it through means and those means will include people. If that is the case, then you will need hadeeth that will explain to you how it was collected. Why? because hadeeth is the only history of the time.
Why do you need explanation as to how it was collected? Even if this was necessary, this is nowhere near justification of following laws outside of the quran.
The explanation
When God says that He will explain it, then it will be one of two again
1- God will explain it Himself directly to us. Well, neither you nor me have received direct communication from God. The messenger has.
2- God explains it through means of explanation. One of those means of explanation is the messenger himself as mentioned on numerous occasions in the Qur'an.Or, the most obvious way is through Himself. How? Through the quran. Simple as that.
I don't "hate all hadith." If you want historical info, then sure, some hadith will have that. But it ends there. There is no need for religious laws to come from outside of the quran. You're accepting things as part of the deen that has not come from God.
Peace
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Why do you need explanation as to how it was collected? Even if this was necessary, this is nowhere near justification of following laws outside of the quran.
I agree hlatif should not ask such questions from those who cannot answer .After all these questions to answer need '
-knowledge &
-brainHe should be careful not to put people in trouble.
voodoo voodoo -
I agree hlatif should not ask such questions from those who cannot answer .After all these questions to answer need '
-knowledge &
-brainHe should be careful not to put people in trouble.
voodoo voodooYou are right, we should turn to hearsay and conjecture so we can feel safe knowing that part of the Quran was lost inside the underbelly of a mountain goat (PBUH).
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I agree hlatif should not ask such questions from those who cannot answer .After all these questions to answer need '
-knowledge &
-brainHe should be careful not to put people in trouble.
voodoo voodooDo you mock because you cannot answer?
Please tell me the relation between knowing how the quran was collected and avidly following senseless hearsay as if it was the word of God? The hadith, at best, is a bad history book. Everything we need for our deen is in the quran, the same message Jesus, Moses, etc. received. To think otherwise is ridiculous. Were other prophets required to follow the hearsay of long chains of narration regarding Muhammad?
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Salaam all,
Navid, the only way for you to say that the Qur'an is authentic, complete with no addition nor subtraction is through knowing how it was collected. All your other methods will not work. So, if you use hadeeth to authenticate the Qur'an, then you cannot pick and chose without clear methodology to throw all the hadeeth except for the one that supports your theory.
Why is it important for you to authenticate the Qur'an? because you attack the hadeeth because it cannot be authenticated. So, for consistency sake, you have to authenticate the Qur'an.
Also, God said in the Qur'an that one of the messenger's jobs is explaining the Qur'an.
OPF, an example of how God acts within time is when He created you. Or do you think that you are timeless?
Also, God does not communicate with you to explain the Qur'an. If He did, then how come He told you something totaly different from your friends on this site. God does not play games.
Take care all.
Hussein
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Do you mock because you cannot answer?
Please tell me the relation between knowing how the quran was collected and avidly following senseless hearsay as if it was the word of God? The hadith, at best, is a bad history book. Everything we need for our deen is in the quran, the same message Jesus, Moses, etc. received. To think otherwise is ridiculous. Were other prophets required to follow the hearsay of long chains of narration regarding Muhammad?
If history is not important why Allah reminded the "Ahl-e-kitab" about their history in the Holy Quran ?? and that with a lot of detail.