To Obey the Prophet(PBUH) is obligatory to every Muslim
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Salaam all,
How does the PROPHET(muhammad) obey the MESSENGER(muhammad)?
Note Those blessed by the god are those who obey the god and the messenger, and included in this group of obeying the god and the messengeris the PROPHET
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Wow, God, really what a hard question. Muhammad was always prophet and messenger at the same time after his prophethood was revealed. He was not prophet one day or one hour and messenger another. So, the prophet/messenger muhammed obeyed God and you have to obey God and him.Cavemandoctor
The verses have been talked about ad nauseam on this board. I was going to paste them but you readily proved my point, and I suspect you do not even know it. I'm referring to the statement of yours that I have bolded. How do I follow the messengers? This is a serious question. If I am commanded to follow the messengers (plural), tell me how I do so. Where are the ahadith of Dawood/Lut/Musa/etc? I'm supposed to follow the messengers, right? Or are you just choosing to only follow Muhammad's ahadith?
The questions are rhetorical, of course. We are told the follow the messengers. If one is to use the Sunni rationale, it would be simply impossible to do so, since we do not have ahadith from the countless other messengers. In other words, the Sunni rationale is completely at odds with what the quran is commanding. This cannot be explained
1- I am not interested in threads. I want to see your own words of those Muhkam. I give you a clue. You will find that you are making the mutashabih muhkam and the muhkam, "obey the messenger" mutashabih. This is a technique that this forum is famous for.
2- The Qur'an says "obey the messenger" Al Rasul. The AL is called Al Taareef. This means that it is one who the listeners would recognize. The one who is recognized by the people who received the Qur'an is Muhammad and none of the others. So, the Qur'an asked us to follow Muhammad. The Qur'an did not say "obey the messengers"
3- The Qur'an also says that God asked that all the messengers and prophets are obligated to follow the one who comes after. So, it does not matter what the earlier prophet or messenger said. What matters is what the last one said and ordered for the ones who come after him.
Take care and have a great day.
Hussein
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Salaam Samia
I believe Ruh and Ruh ul Qudsi can not be easily understood by man. 1917-19 Ruhana takes the form of a man and calls himself a messenger of Allah and in 16102 ruh ul Qudsi is said to be bringing the revelation .
I remember this debate on Ruh "since God says when He created man He breathed in to him His spirit" and the argument goes thus man is part of God and will God throw part of Him in the fire. Honestly I want to stay far away from what I do not understand.
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Salaam Hussein
Your arguments are not sufficient to establish the uncreated Quran. Also 96 does not say that ?Quran is the words of the sender?. I can not recall a verse saying Ruh is created? (Maybe I missed or forgot) When God breathes the ruh is it part of Him? Also verses such as 7924 in which the originator of the speech is Pharaoh. 1316 says Allah created all things and does not say all things except the Quran. 2888 says everything will perish except Him. Also why only the speech and not the text? Don?t you consider a written Quran verse word of God. A deaf person who can see and understand the quran or a dumb or mute person who can not recite look at the written Quran will they not be looking and understanding words of God. If these persons write the Quran is it not the word of god they write. There are too many gaps in the uncreated eternal Quran theory. So I will leave this subject in matters which are hidden. My intention here is not to establish the created Quran but to show the weakness in the uncreated Quran theory.
Do you believe Hadeeth is uncreated too? Are they part of Ayat, Wahy, Truth or even Hadeeth ( Hadeeth as according to the Quran)
What is your criterion in distinguishing between authentic and unauthentic hadeeth?
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Wow, God, really what a hard question. Muhammad was always prophet and messenger at the same time after his prophethood was revealed. He was not prophet one day or one hour and messenger another. So, the prophet/messenger muhammed obeyed God and you have to obey God and him.
Z Let me guess, logic isn't your strong suit.
The verse clearly states that prophets obey the god and the messenger.
Now, rather than illogically equivocating the term prophet with messenger (assuming the terms are one and the same), explain how can prophet muhammad obey the messenger muhammad and God?
HOW?
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"Wow, God, really what a hard question. Muhammad was always prophet and messenger at the same time after his prophethood was revealed. He was not prophet one day or one hour and messenger another. So, the prophet/messenger muhammed obeyed God and you have to obey God and him."
Prophet and messenger are roles, not people. Muhammad is a person, not a role.
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Peace,
2- The Qur'an says "obey the messenger" Al Rasul. The AL is called Al Taareef. This means that it is one who the listeners would recognize. The one who is recognized by the people who received the Qur'an is Muhammad and none of the others. So, the Qur'an asked us to follow Muhammad. The Qur'an did not say "obey the messengers"
3- The Qur'an also says that God asked that all the messengers and prophets are obligated to follow the one who comes after. So, it does not matter what the earlier prophet or messenger said. What matters is what the last one said and ordered for the ones who come after him.
The above is FALSE! Please provide evidence from Qur'an for bolded above.
353 "Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we FOLLOW THE MESSENGER. then write us down among those who bear witness."
Surah 80. He Frowned!
- (The Prophet) frowned and turned away,
- Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).
Qur?an has many examples including the above along with numerous instructions including?
http//www.islamicity.com/ps
Following (930) reference(s) seem to be matching with the phonetics of your query "SAY"
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/3/3_53.htm
395 Say "(Allah) speaketh the Truth follow the religion of ABRAHAM, the sane in faith; he was not of the Pagans."
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Is that 930 authentic hadeeth I see?
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Peace,
The above is FALSE! Please provide evidence from Qur'an for bolded above.
353 "Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we FOLLOW THE MESSENGER. then write us down among those who bear witness."
Surah 80. He Frowned!
- (The Prophet) frowned and turned away,
- Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).
Qur?an has many examples including the above along with numerous instructions including?
http//www.islamicity.com/ps
Following (930) reference(s) seem to be matching with the phonetics of your query "SAY"
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/3/3_53.htm
395 Say "(Allah) speaketh the Truth follow the religion of ABRAHAM, the sane in faith; he was not of the Pagans."
The actual aya is
801802
In the first aya only two verbs connected by a conjuntions are used .
Where did you get this word (Prophet) ???
Is this another example of Tampering the Quran ???????? Or Point it out if I am missing it -
The actual aya is
801802
In the first aya only two verbs connected by a conjuntions are used .
Where did you get this word (Prophet) ???
Is this another example of Tampering the Quran ???????? Or Point it out if I am missing itLearn to read (in brackets) is commentary not part of text and deduced by logic (i.e. God speaks to Phrophets).
Care to translate/comment on surah 80 or continue troll and polute each thread and topic with ???????
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Learn to read (in brackets) is commentary not part of text and deduced by logic (i.e. God speaks to Phrophets).
Care to translate/comment on surah 80 or continue troll and polute each thread and topic with ???????
What is the logic in putting the "Prophet" as a subject????
Tell me
Agent is "third person singular"
How are you sure he is "Prophet " not anyone else??????????Another Tampering .Is this not ?????
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What is the logic in putting the "Prophet" as a subject????
Tell me
Agent is "third person singular"
How are you sure he is "Prophet " not anyone else??????????Another Tampering .Is this not ?????
That places him on par with your tampering in the other thread.
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That places him on par with your tampering in the other thread.
1781
(1781) And declare, "The Truth has come and falsehood has vanished for falsehood is a thing that must by its nature vanish414
(414) And he who disobeys Allah and His Messenger and transgresses the bounds set by Him - him shall Allah cause to enter the Fire. There he will abide. A humiliating chastisement awaits him. -
Salaam all,
Z, Here is the Aya
Waman yutiAAi Allaha waalrrasoola faolaika maAAa allatheena anAAama Allahu AAalayhim mina alnnabiyyeena waalssiddeeqeena waalshshuhadai waalssaliheena wahasuna olaika rafeeqan
469 All who obey Allah and the apostle are in the company of those on whom is the Grace of Allah,- of the prophets (who teach), the sincere (lovers of Truth), the witnesses (who testify), and the Righteous (who do good) Ah! what a beautiful fellowship!
1- It is talking about company of those people and not their state of obeying the messenger or not.
2- Yes the prophet obeys the messenger. If a prophet is also a messenger then He obeys God. So, the mention of the prophets in the Aya applies in general to the prophets who are not messengers, but not necessarily to the ones who are messengers. Proof This is a rule of Arabic of general rule where exceptions apply if applicable, as in when the messenger is also a prophet. The exception does not apply to you, be assured.
OPF,
Prophet and messenger are roles, not people. Muhammad is a person, not a role.
Sounds like a holy trinity. Roles are inseparable from the persons carrying them nor from each other in this case. You cannot divide in three and then pick and choose. Now he is this and now he is that!! You have no criteria from the Qur'an to give you that right.
Nun,
3- The Qur'an also says that God asked that all the messengers and prophets are obligated to follow the one who comes after. So, it does not matter what the earlier prophet or messenger said. What matters is what the last one said and ordered for the ones who come after him.
The above is FALSE! Please provide evidence from Qur'an for bolded above.
381 When Allah made (His) covenant with the Prophets, (He said) Behold that which I have given you of the Scripture and knowledge. And afterward there will come unto you a messenger, confirming that which ye possess. Ye shall believe in him and ye shall help him. He said Do ye agree, and will ye take up My burden (which I lay upon you) in this (matter)? They answered We agree. He said Then bear ye witness. I will be a witness with you.
They help him. that suggests that the later messenger is their leader.Warner,
Your arguments are not sufficient to establish the uncreated Quran. Also 96 does not say that ?Quran is the words of the sender?.
It says let him hear the word of God. What does the word of God point to? and who is the sender of the messenger?
1316 says Allah created all things and does not say all things except the Quran. 2888 says everything will perish except Him.
Inaccurate understanding. It says created Kulli Shayin. Shayin is used in Arabic to point to entities that stand alone. It is not used to point to entities that do not stand alone, such as speech and other attributes. So, the Aya does not apply to God's speech.
Also why only the speech and not the text? Don?t you consider a written Quran verse word of God. A deaf person who can see and understand the quran or a dumb or mute person who can not recite look at the written Quran will they not be looking and understanding words of God.
Speech because God said that He spoke them. However, the words are the entity that does not stand alone and that is not created. When you read the Qur'an on paper or hear it. Your are looking at created ink and created paper and you hear created voices. All of those are created means of communications. However, the words themselves are not created.
Do you believe Hadeeth is uncreated too? Are they part of Ayat, Wahy, Truth or even Hadeeth ( Hadeeth as according to the Quran)
Hadeeth is created because it comes from a created being. It is a product of Wahy but expressed in the words and actions of the messenger.
What is your criterion in distinguishing between authentic and unauthentic hadeeth?
1- consistency with the Qur'anic message.
2- frequency and variation in the reported issue.
3- the names and status of the different people in the isnad.
4- The seriousness and consequence of the order, in case that was an order.
5- Whether I can understand it correctly or not.You put this together and then you come up with a certain degree of assuredness or inassuredness about the hadeeth.
As for the Abasa watawalla. I would rather follow the messenger with all his mistakes than follow me or anyone else. Despite his mistakes, God still chose him to be messenger and not me.
Take care all.
Hussein
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What is the logic in putting the "Prophet" as a subject????
Tell me
Agent is "third person singular"
How are you sure he is "Prophet " not anyone else??????????Another Tampering .Is this not ?????
Basic logic?
To whom was Qur?an given?
To whom does God speak to directly in Qur?an?
Do a search on "say" or qul and see verses 3340, 472, 806, and others and use your mind to put it all together.
Transitive Property of Equality if a = b and b = c, then a = c
Qur?an is for people of intelligence (1678, etc); a mind is required as a prerequisite.
Lastly, you are never too old to learn (reason you are here, right?) -- also see below...
Nun,381 When Allah made (His) covenant with the Prophets, (He said) Behold that which I have given you of the Scripture and knowledge. And afterward there will come unto you a messenger, confirming that which ye possess. Ye shall believe in him and ye shall help him. He said Do ye agree, and will ye take up My burden (which I lay upon you) in this (matter)? They answered We agree. He said Then bear ye witness. I will be a witness with you.
They help him. that suggests that the later messenger is their leader.No, "they help him" suggests that the later messenger is their student.
Peace
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1781
(1781) And declare, "The Truth has come and falsehood has vanished for falsehood is a thing that must by its nature vanish414
(414) And he who disobeys Allah and His Messenger and transgresses the bounds set by Him - him shall Allah cause to enter the Fire. There he will abide. A humiliating chastisement awaits him.Actually, it doesn't, I have to retract that. He had the decency to bracket it off. Unlike a certain advocate of a Holey Profit.
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1- It is talking about company of those people and not their state of obeying the messenger or not.
ZUmmm..all those who obey the god and the messenger are in the company of the prophets..etc...since they too (prophets, truthful and martyrs)obeythe god and the messenger.
2- Yes the prophet obeys the messenger. If a prophet is also a messenger then He obeys God. So, the mention of the prophets in the Aya applies in general to the prophets who are not messengers, but not necessarily to the ones who are messengers. Proof This is a rule of Arabic of general rule where exceptions apply if applicable, as in when the messenger is also a prophet. The exception does not apply to you, be assured.
ZAre you making stuff up?
Show me where in the verse(or in the quran for that matter)it states that a prophet is only to obey the god and the messenger if the prophet is not himself a messenger.
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Salaam all,
Nun,
No, "they help him" suggests that the later messenger is their student.
Incorrect because they were asked to believe in the later messenger. One is asked to believe in the one who is to be followed and not in the one who follows. God never asked messengers to believe in their followers but asked the followers to believe in the messengers.
ZAre you making stuff up?
Show me where in the verse(or in the quran for that matter)it states that a prophet is only to obey the god and the messenger if the prophet is not himself a messenger.
If you search the Qur'an, you will find that all the messengers are prophets, but not all prophets are messengers. This makes the messengers a subset of the prophets and not a totally different group.
Also, when the two words are in the same sentence, you will not find separation between them as in Rasoolan nabiyya= messenger prophet. This means that when the person is designated as Rasool and Nabiyy then he is both at the same time and inseparable.
Combine this with the statement to obey the messenger and if it mentioned that prophets , obey the messenger. Then it is a general statement that says the prophets obey the messengers unless the prophet is actually the messenger. This is all over the Qur'an and in the Arabic language. It called the rule of general and particular where general statements accept particular exceptions. Source books of arabic grammar.
Now, if you want to make prophet and messenger as two different personalities dwelling within the same person who is also at times only human and neither, then prove this from the Qur'an. You cannot because the three are inseparable.
Take care all and have a great day.
Hussein
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Basic logic?
To whom was Qur?an given?
To whom does God speak to directly in Qur?an?
Do a search on "say" or qul and see verses 3340, 472, 806, and others and use your mind to put it all together.
Transitive Property of Equality if a = b and b = c, then a = c
Qur?an is for people of intelligence (1678, etc); a mind is required as a prerequisite.
Lastly, you are never too old to learn (reason you are here, right?) -- also see below...
No, "they help him" suggests that the later messenger is their student.
Peace
Another classical Pearl of Wisdom which must be written in golden words.
If X helps Y ,it means "Y" is a definite student of "X"
If Prophet Haroon PBUH assissted Prophet Moses PBUH ,then it implies that Prophet Moses PBUH was student of prophet Haroon PBUH
If a group of junior lawyers assists some senior lawyer in some case,it means senior lawyer has become "student " of Junior lawyers.
If nurses assisst some specialist doctor in an operation ,it means that FRCS doctor has become student of those nurses .
brickwall brickwall brickwall