Focal Point
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Peace,
Why you must say that ignoramus?
Alot of the advices in Quran is for spiritual needs and understandings and to grasp that we have each of us to dig deeper.
Majidah
salam
sorry, i was not denegrating brother Idolfree's post. my point is that we need him to elaborate; at least for me, his post does not shed light on why he has his particular views on the subject.
i really am sorry, i will try to be more careful how i phrase things.
salam
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wa alaikum salam,
Oh ok, I thought that you was aware of his view but just wanted to look down on it. So I'm the one who should be sorry handshake
Peace
Majidah -
wa alaikum salam,
Oh ok, I thought that you was aware of his view but just wanted to look down on it. So I'm the one who should be sorry handshake
Peace
Majidahsalam sister Majidah
i am really sorry; when i read my post, it did seem rude, although i did not mean it to be so.
i respect everyone's views.
brother Idolfree, please forgive me.
salam
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Salaam ignoramus,
Please see the following
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg110854#msg110854
My current understanding is that "al-masjid al-haraam" as used in al-qur'aan means "the inviolable institution of obedience". Please substitute this meaning for my older and incorrect understanding of "institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden" in the above referenced article.
Where is this instituition ??
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"institution of marriage"
google hits with that exact wording alone 558000 when i searched for it... that doesn't include alternate wordings which refer to the institution of marriage...
now tell me, where is this institution?
oh, can it be that linguistically speaking "institution" stands for an established system? oh wow amazing )
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Salaam all,
Thank you brothers for the excellent answers.
I would like to add by quoting what al-qur'aan has to say about this
2144
2149
Here The God clearly explains what "al-masjid al-haraam" is i.e. "al-haqqu min rabbika"/the truth from your Lord, and we are to face towards/orient ourselves to "al-haqqu min rabbika" WHEREVER we are.
This post is directed to all readers and not to Leoxyz in particular, because so far he has refused to fulfil my request to him in an earlier post to contribute positively on this issue by sharing his understanding and knowledge about this issue.
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Salaam brother,
2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a "qiblatan"/direction/focal point/target that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards "al-masjid al-haraam"/the inviolable institution of obedience; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
2149 And from wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards "al-masjid al-haraam"/the inviolable institution of obedience; it is the truth from your Lord; and God is not unaware of what you do.
This has been discussed in detail at the threads referenced earlier
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11674.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg110854#msg110854
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Salaam brother,
2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a "qiblatan"/direction/focal point/target that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards "al-masjid al-haraam"/the inviolable institution of obedience; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
2149 And from wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards "al-masjid al-haraam"/the inviolable institution of obedience; it is the truth from your Lord; and God is not unaware of what you do.
This has been discussed in detail at the threads referenced earlier
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11674.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg110854#msg110854
salam brother Tanveer
thank you very much for reprinting this information; i realise you have repeated yourself many times, and i apologies for not finding it myself.
what perplexes me is that Allah begins saying "We see the shifting of your face towards the sky", which i can only see as a physical shifting of the face, but then He orders a symbolic facing. perhaps i see a problem in this because of my lack of arabic language.
the other issue i have with this interpretation is that it implies the Messenger's (to whom it seems this is primarily addressed) previously focused on something other than the inviolable institution of obedience. this further implies that the Messenger was commiting shirk in some way, which to me is inconceivable.
any clarification from anyone would be very much appreciated.
salam
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Salaam brother,
what perplexes me is that Allah begins saying "We see the shifting of your face towards the sky", which i can only see as a physical shifting of the face, but then He orders a symbolic facing. perhaps i see a problem in this because of my lack of arabic language.
the other issue i have with this interpretation is that it implies the Messenger's (to whom it seems this is primarily addressed) previously focused on something other than the inviolable institution of obedience. this further implies that the Messenger was commiting shirk in some way, which to me is inconceivable.
The words of The God were revealed in stages over a period of time (7623), and hence all commandments did not come at once. If a believer did something not exactly according to the commandments of The God while the pertinent commandment was not revealed, then it would be committing something out of ignorance and The God forgives those actions, providing one repented sincerely and corrected one's actions once the appropriate commandment was revealed by The God.
417 Repentance is only for those who commit sin out of ignorance and then repent soon after; these will be forgiven by God, God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
654 And if those who believe in Our revelations come to you, then say "Peace be upon you, our Lord has decreed mercy upon Himself, that any of you who commits sin out of ignorance and then repents afterwards and amends, then He is Forgiving, Merciful."
The Prophet was a human being and committed some mistakes also, but he did not persist in his mistakes and repented and corrected his actions once the relevant corrective commandments of The God were revealed
11112 So stand straight as you were commanded and those who repented with you and do not transgress. He is watcher over what you do.
"Those who repented WITH YOU" clearly implies that the Prophet also repented. Why did he repent ? Because obviously he must have committed some mistake out of ignorance.
Now coming to the "qiblatan" issue, before the commandment of setting oneself towards "al-masjid al-haraam" was revealed, obviously the believers were focusing on a physical direction. Obviously the Prophet was not happy with that, as it went against his intuitive thinking, and this is apparent from his attempts to shift his face towards the sky in order to try to focus his attention on The God instead of physical objects, because he might have thought that turning his face to the sky to focus on The God was the only direction left that was not really towards a physical object.
Thereafter, The God revealed His commandments that physical directions are irrelevant (2115, 2142, 2177) and made "al-masjid al-haram"/the inviolable institution of obedience, one's "qiblatan" wherever one is, and this was satisfying to The Prophet as is apparent from the phrase "that will be pleasing to you" in 2144.
This means that we should orient ourselves to the truth from our Lord wherever we are, and we should institute obedience to the commandments of The God and not even think about violating those commandments of The God wherever we are. For example when one is focused on doing good deeds, helping others by charity, upholding the salaat, purifying oneself, establishing a free school or a free clinic, taking care of an orphan or a widow or some needy person, establishing a just government institution based on the pure laws from The God, keeping one's pledges, being patient in the face of adversity etc. etc. wherever one is, then one is making "al-masjid al-haraam" one's "qiblatan".
2115 And to God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God's presence. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
2142 The foolish from amongst the people will say "What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?" Say "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path."
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the angels, and the Scripture, and the prophets, and who gives money out of love to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves; and who honors the Connection, and who contributes towards betterment; as well as those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of good and bad and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and they are the righteous.
Now, when someone asks me why I do not face a particular physical direction and what has turned me away from it, I tell them "to God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path", according to 2142.
This is similar to Abraham's initial attempts to search for The God in heavenly objects, which he soon rejected following his logic and reasoning and the subsequent revelation from The God. This does not make Abraham a mushrik, because he committed something out of ignorance and then corrected his actions soon after the truth was revealed to him.
We should follow the example of Abraham and Muhammad, and not persist in idolatry and facing physical directions once The God's words are revealed into our hearts, but we should sincerely repent and correct our actions by instead focusing on "the truth from our Lord", and "the inviolable institution of obedience" of The God's commandments, wherever we are.
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salam
brother Tanveer, thank you your detailed post. i am still digesting it and looking at the other threads your referenced, and i will respond later insha Alllah.
previously you have given this interpretation of 928
928 O you who believe, those who have set up partners are impure, so let them not approach ?al-masjid al-haram? after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
if al masjid al haram is an symbolic institution of obedience, how is a believer to prevent idolators from approaching it?
salam
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salam
brother Tanveer, thank you your detailed post. i am still digesting it and looking at the other threads your referenced, and i will respond later insha Alllah.
previously you have given this interpretation of 928
if al masjid al haram is an symbolic institution of obedience, how is a believer to prevent idolators from approaching it?
salam
By its very nature, can an idolater be said to approach it?
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Salaam brother,
if al masjid al haram is an symbolic institution of obedience, how is a believer to prevent idolators from approaching it?
It appears that you have not read the notes following that translation in the article referenced or maybe you have read it but it is still not clear. In either case, I will try to explain it again.
In my above post, I gave examples of setting oneself towards "al-masjid al-haraam". "Al-masjid al-haraam", according to al-qur'aan, is "THE TRUTH FROM OUR LORD". Hence, ANY and ALL truths from our Lord will constitute "al-masjid al-haraam". For example, when one focuses on giving charity to the poor, giving charity to the poor becomes "al-masjid al-haraam" in that context. Similarly, taking care of orphans will become "al-masjid al-haraam" in that context. Being kind to parents, upholding salaat, contributing towards betterment, not killing others except in cause of justice, fulfilling one's pledges, not setting up partners with The God etc. are all "al-masjid al-haraam" in the respective contexts.
Similarly, a government institution which implements obedience to The God's commandments would also be "al-masjid al-haraam", and this institution will hold its sessions in a physical building referred to as "al-bayt al-haraam" in al-qur'aan. In this instance, "al-masjid al-haraam" will be the "qiblatan" in that context, and not "al-bayt al-haraam".
Similar examples are Congress, Senate, House of Representatives, etc. which are not physical buildings but government institutions which hold their sessions in some physical building. The Congress, Senate etc. will be analogous to "al-masjid al-haraam", except that they do not necessarily implement obedience to The God, and the physical building which houses their sessions will be analogous to "al-bayt al-haraam". In the context of 928, "al-masjid al-haraam" implies such a government institution that implements obedience to The God's commandments.
Previously, the idolaters also had a position in such a government institution, most likely because they had political power, and those idolaters would interfere with the proper running of this government institution according to The God's laws, and interfere with or prevent the implementation of The God's laws and thereby turn people away from instituting obedience to The God's commandments. After the revelation of 928, when most likely the believers were in power politically in that local community, the believers were commanded not to let the idolaters even come near or approach such an institution, and not to let the idolaters hold any position in such an institution, where they can exert any negative influence on others by misusing their authority and power.
928 makes it clear that the idolaters should not participate in "al-masjid al-haram" anymore. Here if "al-masjid al-haram" is a physical building then how can one prevent an idolater from entering a physical building ? Anyone can learn a few words like "la ilaha illallaha", meaning "there is no god but The God", or "salaamun alaikum", meaning peace be upon you, and claim to be a submitter, and enter that physical building. Only The God knows what is in the hearts. An idolater, while setting up partners with The God in his heart, can deceive the general public into believing that he is not an idolater by saying certain phrases, thereby being able to enter a physical building without any problem.
The idolaters turn away others from the implementation of obedience to The God and do not implement the obedience to The God themselves. It is not possible to prevent an idolater from entering a physical building, as one does not know what is in the heart, but it is possible to prevent an idolater from participating in a government institution for the implementation of obedience to The God's laws. Hence "al-masjid al-haram" in the context of this sign can only mean a government institution for implementation of obedience to The God's commandments in the "deen", and not a physical building.
One can raise the objection that an idolater can pretend to be a believer and thereby temporarily gain entry into a government institution of obedience to The God's laws also, but it will be impossible for that idolater to keep pretending to be a believer once in that position, and as soon as that idolater tries to interfere with or prevent any implementation of The God's laws, he/she will be exposed immediately and fired. It would be much much easier for an idolater to pretend to be a believer and keep entering a physical building for ever without being caught, because in this case, the idolater will not really have any power or be in a position to implement any governmental laws.
Hope that helps.
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Salaam brother,
It appears that you have not read the notes following that translation in the article referenced or maybe you have read it but it is still not clear. In either case, I will try to explain it again.
In my above post, I gave examples of setting oneself towards "al-masjid al-haraam". "Al-masjid al-haraam", according to al-qur'aan, is "THE TRUTH FROM OUR LORD". Hence, ANY and ALL truths from our Lord will constitute "al-masjid al-haraam". For example, when one focuses on giving charity to the poor, giving charity to the poor becomes "al-masjid al-haraam" in that context. Similarly, taking care of orphans will become "al-masjid al-haraam" in that context. Being kind to parents, upholding salaat, contributing towards betterment, not killing others except in cause of justice, fulfilling one's pledges, not setting up partners with The God etc. are all "al-masjid al-haraam" in the respective contexts.
Similarly, a government institution which implements obedience to The God's commandments would also be "al-masjid al-haraam", and this institution will hold its sessions in a physical building by the name of "al-bayt al-haraam". In this instance, "al-masjid al-haraam" will be the "qiblatan" in that context, and not "al-bayt al-haraam".
Similar examples are Congress, Senate, House of Representatives, etc. which are not physical buildings but government institutions which hold their sessions in some physical building. The Congress, Senate etc. will be analogous to "al-masjid al-haraam", except that they do not necessarily implement obedience to The God, and the physical building which houses their sessions will be analogous to "al-bayt al-haraam". In the context of 928, "al-masjid al-haraam" implies such a government institution that implements obedience to The God's commandments.
Previously, the idolaters were also allowed to have a position in such a government institution, and those idolaters would interfere with the proper running of this government institution, and interfere with or prevent the implementation of The God's laws and thereby turn people away from instituting obedience to The God's commandments. Folowing the revelation of 928, once the believers were in power politically in that local community, the believers were commanded not to let the idolaters even come near or approach such an institution, and not to let the idolaters hold any position in such an institution, where they can exert any negative influence on others by misusing their authority and power.
928 makes it clear that the idolaters should not participate in "al-masjid al-haram" anymore. Here if "al-masjid al-haram" is a physical building then how can one prevent an idolater from entering a physical building ? Anyone can learn a few words like "la ilaha illallaha", meaning "there is no god but The God", or "salaamun alaikum", meaning peace be upon you, and claim to be a submitter, and enter that physical building. Only The God knows what is in the hearts. An idolater, while setting up partners with The God in his heart, can deceive the general public into believing that he is not an idolater by saying certain phrases, thereby being able to enter a physical building without any problem.
The idolaters turn away others from the implementation of obedience to The God and do not implement the obedience to The God themselves. It is not possible to prevent an idolater from entering a physical building, as one does not know what is in the heart, but it is possible to prevent an idolater from participating in a government institution for the implementation of obedience to The God's laws. Hence "al-masjid al-haram" in the context of this sign can only mean a government institution for implementation of obedience to The God's commandments in the "deen", and not a physical building.
One can raise the objection that an idolater can pretend to be a believer and thereby temporarily gain entry into a government institution of obedience to The God's laws also, but it will be impossible for that idolater to keep pretending to be a believer once in that position, and as soon as that idolater tries to interfere with or prevent any implementation of The God's laws, he/she will be exposed immediately and fired. It would be much much easier for an idolater to pretend to be a believer and keep entering a physical building for ever without being caught, because in this case, the idolater will not really have any power or be in a position to implement any governmental laws.
Hope that helps.
salam brother Tanveer
perhaps i misunderstood, i thought you were contending that al masjid al haram is a symbolic institution.
from you last post, it seems you are saying it is a real social institution; am i correct?
also, if it were a physical structure or location, it would be straightforward to prevent entry to persons. does a sentry not prevent a person from entering a building?
salam
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Salaam brother,
One of the aspects of "al-masjid al-haraam" is a social institution also, based on obedience to The God's commandments. As I mentioned earlier, "al-masjid al-haraam" is "the truth from our Lord", and will encompass ANY and ALL truths from our Lord. This however, does not mean it can be a physical building as explained above.
Our "qiblatan" is "al-masjid al-haraam", i.e. ALL aspects of "al-masjid al-haraam", including establishing such a social institution in our community.
also, if it were a physical structure or location, it would be straightforward to prevent entry to persons. does a sentry not prevent a person from entering a building?
I have already answered this in my previous post. Perhaps you have not read that part yet ?
928 makes it clear that the idolaters should not participate in "al-masjid al-haram" anymore. Here if "al-masjid al-haram" is a physical building then how can one prevent an idolater from entering a physical building ? Anyone can learn a few words like "la ilaha illallaha", meaning "there is no god but The God", or "salaamun alaikum", meaning peace be upon you, and claim to be a submitter, and enter that physical building. Only The God knows what is in the hearts. An idolater, while setting up partners with The God in his heart, can deceive the general public into believing that he is not an idolater by saying certain phrases, thereby being able to enter a physical building without any problem.
The idolaters turn away others from the implementation of obedience to The God and do not implement the obedience to The God themselves. It is not possible to prevent an idolater from entering a physical building, as one does not know what is in the heart, but it is possible to prevent an idolater from participating in a government institution for the implementation of obedience to The God's laws. Hence "al-masjid al-haram" in the context of this sign can only mean a government institution for implementation of obedience to The God's commandments in the "deen", and not a physical building.
One can raise the objection that an idolater can pretend to be a believer and thereby temporarily gain entry into a government institution of obedience to The God's laws also, but it will be impossible for that idolater to keep pretending to be a believer once in that position, and as soon as that idolater tries to interfere with or prevent any implementation of The God's laws, he/she will be exposed immediately and fired. It would be much much easier for an idolater to pretend to be a believer and keep entering a physical building for ever without being caught, because in this case, the idolater will not really have any power or be in a position to implement any governmental laws.
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Salaam brother,
One of the aspects of "al-masjid al-haraam" is a social institution also, based on obedience to The God's commandments. As I mentioned earlier, "al-masjid al-haraam" is "the truth from our Lord", and will encompass ANY and ALL truths from our Lord. This however, does not mean it can be a physical building as explained above.
Our "qiblatan" is "al-masjid al-haraam", i.e. ALL aspects of "al-masjid al-haraam", including establishing such a social institution in our community.
salam brother Tanveer
please forgive me, i still do not understand your point. is al masjid al haram a social institution?
salam
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Salaam brother,
In my understanding, yes, it is one of the aspects of "al-masjid al-haraam", and the context of 928 refers to this particular aspect.