Are the Quran aloners hurting the refomist cause?
-
Why is the word "Holy" pricking you? Is this very painful??
It should prickle anyone who knows the meaning of holy and claims to be monotheist.
-
The divisions here run deep. We need a compromise. However Leoxyz did not respnd to this yet
Total number of traditions in 9 volumns of Bukhari 7068
Aisha the mother of faithful 1250 (17.68%)
Abu Hurairah 1100 (15.56%)
Ibn-Umar, son of Umar 1100 (15.56%)
Anas-Ibn-Malik 900 (12.73%)
Abdullah-Ibn-Abbas 700 (9.9%)
Jobair-Ibn-Abdullah 275 (3.89%)
Abu-Musa-Ashari 165 (2.33%)
Abu-Said-Al-Khedri 130 (1.84%)
Ali-Ibn-Abitaleeb 79 (1.11%)
Umar-Ibn-Khattab 50 (0.71%)
Umm Salamh 48 (0.68%)
Abdullah-Ibn-Masud 45 (0.64%)
Muawiyah-Ibn-Abusofyan 10 (0.14%)
Hasan-Ibn-Ali 8 (0.11%)
Ali-Ibn-Husain 6 (0.08%)
Husain-Ibn-Ali 2 (0.03%)
(83% on the whole)
So tell me why have so few knew the "hikmah" and bothered letting other generation know about it? Why did the 4 caliphs who spread islam to many places not spread that hikma with them? I just don't get it.
-
There are some issues you are not looking at. The command to obey the porphet I believe is valid. But the problem we were not there to know what he commanded. Neither the prophet nor his companions left behind them and spread anything except the Quran and I believe the rituals of performing Ibada.
Second the hikmah is the Quran. Since the Quran say
Ya Sin. By the Quran full of Wisdom--thou art indeed one of the messengers, on a Straight Way. It is a Revelation sent down by (Him). The Exalted in Might, Most Merciful, in order that thou mayest admonish a people whose fathers had received no admonition, and who therefore remained heedless (of the Signs of Allah). The Word is proved true against the greater part of them; for they do not believe. (Quran 361-7)
33.34. And recite what is rehearsed to you in your homes, of the Signs of God and His Wisdom for Allah understands the finest mysteries and is well-acquainted (with them).
Obviously what people would recite in their homes was the Quran. Yet it also says the hikmah. So maybe in theory you maybe correct but it was not something WE were exposed to and neither did the prophet and his companions exposed us to the prophet's hadiths. So I take that the command was a command of leadership of a community.
Dear
Let me put the Aya again3164
I hope you will not run away and talk sensibly backed with proper reference of authenticated book.
Our concerned topic are
= Recitation of Verses
= Teaching (Ta3leem) of the "book" and "Hikma"
= Purification of the soul of the people.Allah has used three different Verbs and four different objects.
If it was duty of only that of a "postman" then " " would have been sufficient.Why does the Holy quran uses different verbs i.e , "You said
Ya Sin. By the Quran full of Wisdom--
That is true Quran is Hikma ,no one denies.He not only handed over that Hikma to people but also "Taught them"
Tell me what is this teaching ?? So simple question
Or prove from any classical Arabic dictionary that
"Ta3leem "
"Talaawat"
are synonymous terms.
Ma3zaallah Allah has shown -"redundancy" in the in the sentence.
This is such an allegation on the language of the Quran which even the Disbelievers of that time and Today could put on the Quran which ,today's "Modern Zamakhsharies" are putting.
prove it. -
Dear
You are 100% correct. Muhammad and the preceding messengers/nabis recited al-kitab, taught kitab and hikma, and purified their souls.
2219 - (a)They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. (b)Say In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit. And they ask you as to what they should spend. (c)Say What you can spare. (d)Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications, that you may ponder
2220 - On this world and the hereafter. (e) And they ask you concerning the orphans Say To set right for them (their affairs) is good, and if you become co-partners with them, they are your brethren; and Allah knows the mischief-maker and the pacemaker, and if Allah had pleased, He would certainly have caused you to fall into a difficulty; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
So, a, they asked him about the subject matter, asbab-e-nuzool, as the hadeethists like. In (b), he taught them what they did not know (of course, Allah taugh Muhammad the messenger wha he did not know, and Muhammad the messenger passed on the message in turn) and because he is told to be vocal, he is also reciting the Quran to them. Thus, these two things result in purification of the soul, should the people in question heed it. Muhammad the messenger had no power to guide them, his only duty was to pass the message, if they turned away.
So now, in (e), he is also doing the same. Teaching, reciting, and passing wisdom, and hence, purifying their souls.
2222 - And they ask you about menstruation. Say It is a discomfort; therefore keep aloof from the women during the menstrual discharge and do not go near them until they have become clean; then when they have cleansed themselves, go in to them as Allah has commanded you; surely Allah loves those who turn much (to Him), and He loves those who purify themselves.
More authentic hadeeth from the best source of hadeeth. The following verses also show how detailed the Quran can be when God wishes it to be.
3183 - (Those are they) who said Surely Allah has enjoined us that we should not believe in any messenger until he brings us an offering which the fire consumes. Say Indeed, there came to you messengers before me with clear arguments and with that which you demand; why then did you kill them if you are truthful?
So here he is attempting to judge from the book.
4127 - And they ask you a decision about women. Say Allah makes known to you His decision concerning them, and that which is recited to you in the Book concerning female orphans whom you do not give what is appointed for them while you desire to marry them, and concerning the weak among children, and that you should deal towards orphans with equity; and whatever good you do, Allah surely knows it.
So, here is the isnad for this authentic hadeeth (the original arabic text)
God ==> Muhammad ==> Us.
-
I was in a discussion with some Muslims and they say the abandoning or questioning of hadiths would lead to chaos. They say look at the Quran aloners and how divided and lost they are?
Chaos? Division?... More than there is right now? What, 74 sects instead of 73? -\Peace
-
Dear
You are 100% correct. Muhammad and the preceding messengers/nabis recited al-kitab, taught kitab and hikma, and purified their souls.
2219 - (a)They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. (b)Say In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit. And they ask you as to what they should spend. (c)Say What you can spare. (d)Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications, that you may ponder
2220 - On this world and the hereafter. (e) And they ask you concerning the orphans Say To set right for them (their affairs) is good, and if you become co-partners with them, they are your brethren; and Allah knows the mischief-maker and the pacemaker, and if Allah had pleased, He would certainly have caused you to fall into a difficulty; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
So, a, they asked him about the subject matter, asbab-e-nuzool, as the hadeethists like. In (b), he taught them what they did not know (of course, Allah taugh Muhammad the messenger wha he did not know, and Muhammad the messenger passed on the message in turn) and because he is told to be vocal, he is also reciting the Quran to them. Thus, these two things result in purification of the soul, should the people in question heed it. Muhammad the messenger had no power to guide them, his only duty was to pass the message, if they turned away.
So now, in (e), he is also doing the same. Teaching, reciting, and passing wisdom, and hence, purifying their souls.
2222 - And they ask you about menstruation. Say It is a discomfort; therefore keep aloof from the women during the menstrual discharge and do not go near them until they have become clean; then when they have cleansed themselves, go in to them as Allah has commanded you; surely Allah loves those who turn much (to Him), and He loves those who purify themselves.
More authentic hadeeth from the best source of hadeeth. The following verses also show how detailed the Quran can be when God wishes it to be.
3183 - (Those are they) who said Surely Allah has enjoined us that we should not believe in any messenger until he brings us an offering which the fire consumes. Say Indeed, there came to you messengers before me with clear arguments and with that which you demand; why then did you kill them if you are truthful?
So here he is attempting to judge from the book.
4127 - And they ask you a decision about women. Say Allah makes known to you His decision concerning them, and that which is recited to you in the Book concerning female orphans whom you do not give what is appointed for them while you desire to marry them, and concerning the weak among children, and that you should deal towards orphans with equity; and whatever good you do, Allah surely knows it.
So, here is the isnad for this authentic hadeeth (the original arabic text)
God ==> Muhammad ==> Us.
OPF
What you are narrating are verses of the Quran.
To read them out= Recitation of the Verses fullfilled in the first sentence "yatloo alaihim ayaatihi"
Then where is "Ta3leem" ?? -
Do you seriously not see it?
peace
-
Peace Leoxyz
To read them out= Recitation of the Verses fullfilled in the first sentence "yatloo alaihim ayaatihi"
Then where is "Ta3leem" ??In my opinion "yatloo alaihim ayaatihi" means recite and follow the signs before you. Like qiraat (recitation) tilawat (to recite/declare) mean recitation but tilawat carries the connotation of following. So when "yatloo alaihim ayaatihi" is mentioned it means to recite and follow the signs before the people so that they can see that these teachings are meant to be followed.
Joe
-
The question has not been answered. Are the Quran aloners helping Sunnis and Shias claim that without these sects Muslims can not practice their religion and would turn the deen to chaos and divisions?
Are the sects using the Quran aloners to paint all Quranist with the same brush?
Yes or no?
-
The question has not been answered. Are the Quran aloners helping Sunnis and Shias claim that without these sects Muslims can not practice their religion and would turn the deen to chaos and divisions?
Are the sects using the Quran aloners to paint all Quranist with the same brush?
Yes or no?
The problem with traditional Islam is that it focuses on the individual's belief and the God-individual relationship and neglect the main messgae to fight corruption, lying, poverty, freedom of speech, research, equality....all these diseases that all muslim countries suffer from. . The example of quraanists in egypt is the best one. What's their problem with those qur'aanists who pray, fast, perform hajj and pay zakat like them and even wear head scarves? The only difference is that these qur'aanists in Egypt want to shift the weight from the individual faith to the society faith. This is against the traditionalists' agendas. What the traditionalists are doing is finding any excuse to discredit them.
Are the sects using the Quran aloners to paint all Quranist with the same brush?
Why do you say that? Are quran aloners bad news?
-
The problem with traditional Islam is that it focuses on the individual's belief and the God-individual relationship and neglect the main messgae to fight corruption, lying, poverty, freedom of speech, research, equality....all these diseases that all muslim countries suffer from. . The example of quraanists in egypt is the best one. What's their problem with those qur'aanists who pray, fast, perform hajj and pay zakat like them and even wear head scarves? The only difference is that these qur'aanists in Egypt want to shift the weight from the individual faith to the society faith. This is against the traditionalists' agendas. What the traditionalists are doing is finding any excuse to discredit them.
Why do you say that? Are quran aloners bad news?
No but it could scare some Muslims when the traditionalist use some of the various views here to taint the Quranist with.
By the way, a relative of mine said there is a Quran alonetr movement in Sudan and that they have an office in Sudan. Do you know anything about them?
-
No but it could scare some Muslims when the traditionalist use some of the various views here to taint the Quranist with.
By the way, a relative of mine said there is a Quran alonetr movement in Sudan and that they have an office in Sudan. Do you know anything about them?
I also heard of them, but I don't really know, but wont be surprised. Sudanese are very tolerent and frown upon "takfeer".
-
Ironically, they broke up into sects only after the knowledge had come to them, due to jealousy and resentment among themselves. If it were not for a predetermined decision from your Lord to respite them for a definite interim, they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, the later generations who inherited the scripture are full of doubts.
Those who divide themselves into sects do not belong with you. Their judgment rests with GOD, then He will inform them of everything they had done.
(Do not fall in idol worship,) like those who divide their religion into sects; each party rejoicing with what they have.