To Obey the Prophet(PBUH) is obligatory to every Muslim
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Salaam Warner,
I never said speech of a messenger. You did not read correctly. I said saying=Qawl and I said that saying means
1- words of messenger
2- words of sender.And then I pointed you to 96
As for the above. You may be right I should have used saying instead of speech. Because it said Qaloo= they said. It does not change my answer though. The Shayin is about the entity that they talked about. When you talk about your father. I do not point to your sayings if my interest is in your father, I will point to your father. The issue that matters.
And yes God spoke the Qur'an as He spoke to Moses. However, for us humans, we only have the words because we did not hear him
Take care
Hussein
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2- Even if you go to scholars for what you cannot know. It is better than reading a false translation from some of the self proclaimed imams or "prophets" of this site. At least the scholars of Sunnism and Shiism and Ibadhism, agree on much more than you guys agree on.
Hussein! You're an INFIDEL! You must be STONED TO DEATH!.
You get my grip??
Those are the things that people here don't do..
They can agree to disagree and no one get STONED.So the people here actually agree on much more on what the scholars of Suniism, Shiism and Ibadhism and other-Ism..
Because they can agree to disagree..Salam
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http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/16/16_89.htm
1689 One day We shall raise from all Peoples a witness against them, from amongst themselves and We shall bring thee as a witness against these (thy people) and We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide, a Mercy, and Glad Tidings to Muslims.
Yes and the Aya that you are pointing out will have to be understood with this other Aya in mind.Muhammad Assad
2143 Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves; ------
So, if we (submitters to the message) are witnesses over the nations and he is a witness over us, then he is a witness over all the people. Yes their messengers will witness over their people and since he will be the witness over all the muslims, including all the prophets, then he is the witness over all humanity, including their prophets.A witness is someone who bears witness thus was at the scene. We too convey the message which various people will be called to bear witness including the original messenger thus different chains or ?records? exist as evidence and reason ?the messenger? was used in order to transcend time/space (i.e. a person in Arabia cannot be a witness against Eskimoan peoples or Prophets living 1000 years prior or after).
There is no subservience of Prophets to anyone else except God for they all made a convent to deliver the message in truth.
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/33/33_7.htm
337 And remember We took from the prophets their covenant As (We did) from thee from Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary We took from them a solemn covenanthttp//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/33/33_8.htm
338 That ((Allah)) may question the (custodians) of Truth concerning the Truth they (were charged with) And He has prepared for the Unbelievers a grievous Penalty.This is an attempt to fit Qur'an according to unverifiable contradicting hearsay as this...
http//www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html#005.058.227Question remains on nature of the unnamed messenger in 381 and a topic in itself.
This one is all over the place.
Peace
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http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/33/33_8.htm
338 That ((Allah)) may question the (custodians) of Truth concerning the Truth they (were charged with) And He has prepared for the Unbelievers a grievous Penalty.This is an attempt to fit Qur'an according to unverifiable contradicting hearsay as this...
http//www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html#005.058.227Question remains on nature of the unnamed messenger in 381 and a topic in itself.
This one is all over the place.
Peace
The actual Aya is
338
How could you deduct that they were "Charged with" the truth ??
Just curious or a typical Quranist Somersault ?? -
The actual Aya is
338
How could you deduct that they were "Charged with" the truth ??
Just curious or a typical Quranist Somersault ??Yusuf Ali, what a great Quranist.
But this is unsurprising, coming from someone who believes in magical flying horses with wings and super-Arabs whose very spit could quench the thirst of 500.
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A witness is someone who bears witness thus was at the scene. We too convey the message which various people will be called to bear witness including the original messenger thus different chains or ?records? exist as evidence and reason ?the messenger? was used in order to transcend time/space (i.e. a person in Arabia cannot be a witness against Eskimoan peoples or Prophets living 1000 years prior or after).
There is no subservience of Prophets to anyone else except God for they all made a convent to deliver the message in truth.
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/33/33_7.htm
337 And remember We took from the prophets their covenant As (We did) from thee from Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary We took from them a solemn covenanthttp//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/33/33_8.htm
338 That ((Allah)) may question the (custodians) of Truth concerning the Truth they (were charged with) And He has prepared for the Unbelievers a grievous Penalty.This is an attempt to fit Qur'an according to unverifiable contradicting hearsay as this...
http//www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html#005.058.227Question remains on nature of the unnamed messenger in 381 and a topic in itself.
This one is all over the place.
Peace
Salaam
Certainly the Messenger will witness and the Quran tells what he will say on the day of the Judgment on his witnessing.
25 30 And the messenger will say O my Lord! truly my people neglected this Qur'an
Wa qa_lar rasu_lu ya_ rab bi in na qaumit tahazu_ ha_zal qur a_na mahju_ra_
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Salaam all,
Jafar, I have not called anyone of you infidel. Many of you believe that I am an idol worshipper. As a matter of fact, one the main aspects of the early history of Sunnism is the extreme reluctance at calling people Kafir, whereas the other groups were very free at declaring apostacy on others. This means that people like Bin Laden and the like are not really Sunnis despite their claim otherwise.
Nun, the condition for the witness is knowledge of facts. It does not matter how the facts came to be known or that they needed to be heard or seen or whatever. So, the messenger Muhammad will be a witness because God gave him knowledge of those facts and it does not matter how God gave him that knowledge.
Warner, I will give you two proofs
Muhammad Assad
4164 and as apostles whom We have mentioned to thee ere this, as well as apostles whom We have not mentioned to thee; and as God spoke His word unto MosesThe other one is 96 because Kalam which is the word in the Aya, can only be a spoken word according to Lisan Al Arab volume 13 page 39.
Take care and have a great day.
Hussein
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Salaam all,
Warner, I will give you two proofs
Muhammad Assad
4164 and as apostles whom We have mentioned to thee ere this, as well as apostles whom We have not mentioned to thee; and as God spoke His word unto MosesThe other one is 96 because Kalam which is the word in the Aya, can only be a spoken word according to Lisan Al Arab volume 13 page 39.
Take care and have a great day.
Hussein
Salaam haltif
The first ne is one verse 4164 (no 179). The translation of the part in blue is not accurate no"words" is there. It is ( wa kallama allaahu muusaa takleema) The word "takleema" is not "kalaama". This kind of verbal noun derived from the same principal verb serves as emphasis. Thus it simply means and God did speak to Moses. The qur'aan also tells us what God said to Moses 2011-24;36-47.
The second verse is about the qur'aan, I agree.
Unless you mean that what God said to Moses is in the qur'aan, therefore God spoke the quraan to Moses, but I do not see that this is a valid argument. Is this what you mean? Can you put it in such a way that it becomes a valid argument?
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Salaam all,
Jafar, I have not called anyone of you infidel. Many of you believe that I am an idol worshipper. As a matter of fact, one the main aspects of the early history of Sunnism is the extreme reluctance at calling people Kafir, whereas the other groups were very free at declaring apostacy on others. This means that people like Bin Laden and the like are not really Sunnis despite their claim otherwise.
Take care and have a great day.
Hussein
Really? Where? Is this like everyone here rejecting all hadeeth?
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Salaam all,
Samia,
Unless you mean that what God said to Moses is in the qur'aan, therefore God spoke the quraan to Moses, but I do not see that this is a valid argument. Is this what you mean? Can you put it in such a way that it becomes a valid argument?
I used Kalam for the statement in 96 and not the kallama Allahu Musa Taklima which translates "and God spoke words to Moses indeed". I also explained to Warner that Lisan Al Arab limits the meaning of kalam and kallama to spoken words/statements.
This is in response to Warner who wanted evidence for my previous statement in which I mentioned that God spoke the Qur'an as he spoke to Moses. In case this statement is misunderstood, I meant "God spoke the Qur'an and God spoke to Moses". Your post seems to agree with what I said since you agree that God spoke to Moses and with my assessment of 96.
OPF, it can be shocking to you, but yes, many here do not hesitate to place the term Kafir on me or others. It has been said before and they do not negate that assertion. Their response to me in the past was "It is ok to call someone kafir since we do not kill". I will not mention names.
Take care and have a great day.
Hussein
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Salaam Warner,
KLM is spoken words, whether by humans or by God or others. Here are some examples of human speech 346, 11105 and more. Examples of animals speaking in words to humans 2782 Examples of God speech The ones mentioned earlier as well as 2174, 2118. All of them are spoken words.
QWL is communication spoken or unspoken in words or otherwise also by God or man or any other entity. Here is an example of unspoken QWL
191 Kaf. Ha. Ya. Ain. Sad.
192 A mention of the mercy of thy Lord unto His servant Zachariah.
193 When he cried unto his Lord a cry in secret,
194 Saying My Lord! Lo! the bones of me wax feeble and my head is shining with grey hair, and I have never been unblest in prayer to Thee, my Lord.
195 Lo! I fear my kinsfolk after me, since my wife is barren. Oh, give me from Thy presence a successor
Khafiyya which was translated by Picktal as secret is closer to hidden.
QALA he said is the word that was translated as Saying. Suggesting that he said something but it could have been spoken or unspoken and probably it was unspoken since it was hidden.
There are other examples like this as well. So, whenever you see KLM, then it is spoken words and when QWL, it could be spoken or unspoken form of communication.
The Qur'an was never pointed to in the Qur'an as QAWL. It was only referred to as Kalam= spoken words.
Take care and have a great day.
Hussein
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Peace Hussein, Waner, all
The Qur'an was never pointed to in the Qur'an as QAWL. It was only referred to as Kalam= spoken words.
What you are saying is completely false.
- This is indeed a "QAWL"/speech of an honorable messenger.
You are demonstrating that your only motive for making such baseless claims is to support your Abbassid era dogmatic innovation. Your clumsy arguments have nothing to do with what the great reading is actually saying or with rational practical reality.
Peace,
Ayman
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Good point but not quite. The Qur'an never pointed to itself as Qawlu Allah. It did point to itself as Kalam Allah. The rest of my points are correct and you cannot deny them.
In fact Qawlu rasool is really a great insight. It means that the messenger can communicate the Qur'an, which God described in his book as God's spoken words, in spoken words as well as other than spoken words, as in actions.
Take care all.
Hussein
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In fact Qawlu rasool is really a great insight. It means that the messenger can communicate the Qur'an, which God described in his book as God's spoken words, in spoken words as well as other than spoken words, as in actions.
How, using Arabic sign language?
122 We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an, in order that ye may learn wisdom.
4629 Behold, We turned towards thee a company of Jinns (quietly) listening to the Qur'an when they stood in the presence thereof, they said, "Listen in silence!" When the (reading) was finished, they returned to their people, to warn (them of their sins).
5417 And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember then is there any that will receive admonition?
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through practicing the Qur'an as well as reciting it, while people observe him and do like him and then transmit to the people after them.
5417 translation is inaccurate. The Aya says, "yassarn al Qur'an lilthikr=We made the Qur'an easy to mention/remember"
There is no easy to understand in the Aya.
Hussein