Focal Point
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Salaam brother,
One of the aspects of "al-masjid al-haraam" is a social institution also, based on obedience to The God's commandments. As I mentioned earlier, "al-masjid al-haraam" is "the truth from our Lord", and will encompass ANY and ALL truths from our Lord. This however, does not mean it can be a physical building as explained above.
Our "qiblatan" is "al-masjid al-haraam", i.e. ALL aspects of "al-masjid al-haraam", including establishing such a social institution in our community.
also, if it were a physical structure or location, it would be straightforward to prevent entry to persons. does a sentry not prevent a person from entering a building?
I have already answered this in my previous post. Perhaps you have not read that part yet ?
928 makes it clear that the idolaters should not participate in "al-masjid al-haram" anymore. Here if "al-masjid al-haram" is a physical building then how can one prevent an idolater from entering a physical building ? Anyone can learn a few words like "la ilaha illallaha", meaning "there is no god but The God", or "salaamun alaikum", meaning peace be upon you, and claim to be a submitter, and enter that physical building. Only The God knows what is in the hearts. An idolater, while setting up partners with The God in his heart, can deceive the general public into believing that he is not an idolater by saying certain phrases, thereby being able to enter a physical building without any problem.
The idolaters turn away others from the implementation of obedience to The God and do not implement the obedience to The God themselves. It is not possible to prevent an idolater from entering a physical building, as one does not know what is in the heart, but it is possible to prevent an idolater from participating in a government institution for the implementation of obedience to The God's laws. Hence "al-masjid al-haram" in the context of this sign can only mean a government institution for implementation of obedience to The God's commandments in the "deen", and not a physical building.
One can raise the objection that an idolater can pretend to be a believer and thereby temporarily gain entry into a government institution of obedience to The God's laws also, but it will be impossible for that idolater to keep pretending to be a believer once in that position, and as soon as that idolater tries to interfere with or prevent any implementation of The God's laws, he/she will be exposed immediately and fired. It would be much much easier for an idolater to pretend to be a believer and keep entering a physical building for ever without being caught, because in this case, the idolater will not really have any power or be in a position to implement any governmental laws.
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Salaam brother,
One of the aspects of "al-masjid al-haraam" is a social institution also, based on obedience to The God's commandments. As I mentioned earlier, "al-masjid al-haraam" is "the truth from our Lord", and will encompass ANY and ALL truths from our Lord. This however, does not mean it can be a physical building as explained above.
Our "qiblatan" is "al-masjid al-haraam", i.e. ALL aspects of "al-masjid al-haraam", including establishing such a social institution in our community.
salam brother Tanveer
please forgive me, i still do not understand your point. is al masjid al haram a social institution?
salam
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Salaam brother,
In my understanding, yes, it is one of the aspects of "al-masjid al-haraam", and the context of 928 refers to this particular aspect.
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Salaam brother,
In my understanding, yes, it is one of the aspects of "al-masjid al-haraam", and the context of 928 refers to this particular aspect.
salam brother
i think i have been totally misconstruing what you have been saying.
i think this idea fundamentally contradicts the message of the Quran.
Allah asks us to seek him directly, but you are suggesting something akin to the Roman Catholic system.
to me, this also seems contradictory to the concept of tawheed.
it also seems that we are being asked to focus on a very complex concept/structure/system which i think negates the whole idea of focus.
i also cannot see how the Messenger would be pleased by Allah asking him to focus on such a concept/structure/system instead of directly on God.
salam
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Salaam brother,
Focusing on "the truth from our Lord" is focusing on The God. "The truth from our Lord" encompasses all aspects of our lives. We have to obey The God's commandments in ALL aspects of our lives, including establishing a social institution based ONLY on The God's laws and commandments, and if that is not focusing on The God, then what is ?
To make "the truth from our Lord" our "qiblatan", we do not need a compass or a geographical direction or a physical map, but all we need is the scripture from The God as mentioned in 2144
2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards the inviolable institution of obedience; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
What does facing a physical building and bowing and prostrating towards a physical building accomplish as far as obedience to The God or focusing on The God is concerned ?
2115 And to God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God's presence. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is...................
How can physically facing a physical building be focusing on The God ? How does that promote tawheed ?
How can a physical building be "the truth from our Lord" ?
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Salaam brother,
Focusing on "the truth from our Lord" is focusing on The God. "The truth from our Lord" encompasses all aspects of our lives. We have to obey The God's commandments in ALL aspects of our lives, including establishing a social institution based ONLY on The God's laws and commandments, and if that is not focusing on The God, then what is ?
To make "the truth from our Lord" our "qiblatan", we do not need a compass or a geographical direction or a physical map, but all we need is the scripture from The God as mentioned in 2144
2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards the inviolable institution of obedience; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
What does facing a physical building and bowing and prostrating towards a physical building accomplish as far as obedience to The God or focusing on The God is concerned ?
2115 And to God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God's presence. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is...................
How can physically facing a physical building be focusing on The God ? How does that promote tawheed ?
salam brother
this is different to focusing on a concept/structure/system including a social institution.
why not just say focus on the Truth from God, which encompasses a great deal more than your description of al masjid al haram.
also you are saying that the believers are asked to prevent the idolators from approaching al masjid al haram. this is conceivable in the case of a government institution, but how is this possible with a concept.
if you say al masjid al haram is the Truth from God, then asking believers to prevent idolators from approaching this Truth is fundementally contradicting the rest of the Quran, which propounds that it is revealed for all mankind. how are idolators to repent if they are kept away from the Truth?
salam
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Salaam brother,
Making "al-masjid al-haraam" a physical building causes many HUGE contradictions with al-qur'aan, and physical impossibilities.
Can you be kind enough to answer all the questions raised in the following links, and resolve those contradictions ?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg111540#msg111540
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg111637#msg111637
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg112157#msg112157
I will appreciate an answer to each of the points raised in those links for a resolution of this issue.
I already showed how in the context of 928, "al-masjid al-haraam" refers to a social institution based on obedience to The God's commandments. How does that contradict al-qur'aan ?
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Salaam brother,
Making "al-masjid al-haraam" a physical building causes many HUGE contradictions with al-qur'aan, and physical impossibilities.
Can you be kind enough to answer all the questions raised in the following links, and resolve those contradictions ?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg111540#msg111540
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg111637#msg111637
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg112157#msg112157
I will appreciate an answer to each of the points raised in those links for a resolution of this issue.
I already showed how in the context of 928, "al-masjid al-haraam" refers to a social institution based on obedience to The God's commandments. How does that contradict al-qur'aan ?
salam brother
first, i am not clear at all what al masjid al haram is, and i am not propounding that it is a physical building or otherwise. insha Allah i will read throught these posts and see if i can respond.
whether al masjid al haram is a physical building or not, you still need to address the points in my last post.
salam
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Salaam brother,
We have to determine the exact implication of certain words according to the context of their usage in a particular sign. According to the context of 928, "al-masjid al-haram" refers to a social institution for implementation of obedience to The God's laws and commandments in that sign, and 928 tells us not to let the idolaters be a part of such an institution. It does not mean that we should not let the idolaters approach ALL truths from our Lord.
The social institution for implementation of obedience to The God's laws and commandments is ONE of the truths from our Lord, and according to the context of 928, the idolaters are to be prevented from becoming part of such an institution, because otherwise they will have the power and authority to prevent the implementation of The God's laws in a community, which would be a very serious problem.
Now if you can kindly address the issues raised in the referenced links in my last post please, I will really appreciate it.
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Peace all,
I never claimed that my understanding is the final ultimate truth. Maybe someone can come up with a better understanding of "al-masjid al-haraam" and I will gladly adopt that understanding. One thing, however, that I am quite sure is that it cannot possibly be referring to a physical building.
May The God guide us all to the straight path and the truth and help us in understanding His words properly, and give us patience to arrive at the proper understanding.
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Peace all,
I never claimed that my understanding is the final ultimate truth. Maybe someone can come up with a better understanding of "al-masjid al-haraam" and I will gladly adopt that understanding. One thing, however, that I am quite sure is that it cannot possibly be referring to a physical building.
May The God guide us all to the straight path and the truth and help us in understanding His words properly, and give us patience to arrive at the proper understanding.
salam brother
please accept my sincre apologies if my posts seemed belligerant, they were certainly not intended to be so. i am trying to be objective rather than support any point of view. i only wish to know the Truth.
i am reading through the links in your last but one post, and insha Allah, i shall endeavour to see if i can address them. please bear in mind i have only been studying the Quran for a month and i do not speak arabic, so it may take a while!
as it stands, i still think the points i made in my last but one post (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15074.msg144771#msg144771) refute your notion of al masjid al haram, although they neither prove that al masjid al haram is a physical building, in mecca or otherwise. perhaps someone is yet to suggest the correct meaning of al masjid al haram; i really do not know.
thank you.
salam
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Salaam all,
here are some more Ayat of AlMasjid Alharam
919 Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of Allah. They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. and Allah guides not those who do wrong
4827 Truly did Allah fulfil the vision for His Messenger. ye shall enter the Sacred Mosque, if Allah wills, with minds secure, heads shaved, hair cut short, and without fear. For He knew what ye knew not, and He granted, besides this, a speedy victory.
Of course, they are corrupted!! according to many here.
Hussein
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salam brother hlatif
if you dont mind, when you post english interpretations of verses, could you just put "masjid al haram" instead of any interpretation, as this is what is being debated, so those of us new to the Quran do not get confused.
thank you brother.
salam
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Think "body and mind" (i.e. 2191 physical; 2149-150 mindful).
Peace
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Salaam brother,
The Prophet was a human being and committed some mistakes also, but he did not persist in his mistakes and repented and corrected his actions once the relevant corrective commandments of The God were revealed
11112 So stand straight as you were commanded and those who repented with you and do not transgress. He is watcher over what you do.
"Those who repented WITH YOU" clearly implies that the Prophet also repented. Why did he repent ? Because obviously he must have committed some mistake out of ignorance.
Now coming to the "qiblatan" issue, before the commandment of setting oneself towards "al-masjid al-haraam" was revealed, obviously the believers were focusing on a physical direction. Obviously the Prophet was not happy with that, as it went against his intuitive thinking, and this is apparent from his attempts to shift his face towards the sky in order to try to focus his attention on The God instead of physical objects, because he might have thought that turning his face to the sky to focus on The God was the only direction left that was not really towards a physical object.
Dear Navid
Though I know probably you are not going to answer this question but for "Hujjat" sake I putting this questionYou said
obviously the believers were focusing on a physical
direction.My question
1 What was that physical direction which the believers were focusing ?
2Why did they adopt that direction ? Was it
aProphet PBUH 's commandment
bAllah's commandment
cBeliever's own decision -
I am sorry Ignoramus,
919 Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of Al Masjid Al haram, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of Allah. They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. and Allah guides not those who do wrong
4827 Truly did Allah fulfil the vision for His Messenger. ye shall enter Al Masjid Al haram, if Allah wills, with minds secure, heads shaved, hair cut short, and without fear. For He knew what ye knew not, and He granted, besides this, a speedy victory.
I hope this helps a little and please accept my apologies. I do want to add that a term like Al Masjid Al Haram is pointing to an entity known to those who were addressed by the Qur'an. The reason is that it starts with AL and the AL is used when the entity is known to those who are addressed. This points to needing to know what was that entity that was known to them? and do we have any evidence or counter evidence of it? The only entity that is mentioned from the early works of Islam was that the area around the Kaba was named as such. From the works of the early muslims there is no other alternative that was offered.
Take care and have a great day.
Hussein
Hussein
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Peace,
The only strange part I found in the verse 4827 is "heads shaved, hair cut short".
But else I found that Br Tanveer's understanding also fit in these verses mentioning Al Masjid Al Haram.
Majidah
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salam
brother Tanveer, let me address your points in turn.
2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards the inviolable institution of obedience; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
What does facing a physical building and bowing and prostrating towards a physical building accomplish as far as obedience to The God or focusing on The God is concerned ?
if God asks us to face towards a physical building then by facing that building we are obeying Him. as for those of previous scipture knowing it is the Truth, this neither proves that al masjid al haram is a physical building (at mecca or elsewhere), nor disproves it.
2115 And to God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God's presence. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is...................
How can physically facing a physical building be focusing on The God ? How does that promote tawheed ?
How can a physical building be "the truth from our Lord" ?
if the God has asked to face a physical building, then it is by definition the Truth from our Lord.
2143 And as such, We have made you a balanced nation so that you may be witness over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you. And We did not make the focal point that you became on except to distinguish who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. It was a great thing indeed except for those whom God had guided; God was not to waste your belief. God is Merciful and Compassionate over the people.
According to 2143, the "qibla" distinguishes who folows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. Now a hypocrite can also face a physical building along with the believers and thus will be INDISTINGUISHABLE from the believers. A hypocrite is the one who will turn on their heels from following the messenger. How will a physical direction/focal point distinguish a hypocrite from the believers ?
from this verse (not having a good understanding of arabic or the rest of the Quran), it is not clear whether it speaks about God distinguishing or men distinguishing between the followers of the message from those "who turn on their heels". if it refers to men, then it is easier to distinguish between men facing different physical directions than it is to distinguish between men have disparate mental foci. this verse in no ways supports the argument of a mental qibla.
in response to the points you made in the links you referenced
The Possibility or Impossibility of Facing a Physical Direction
We are supposed to face "al-masjid al-haram" WHEREVER we are. The God has repeated that many times
2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
2149 And from wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; it is the truth from your Lord; and God is not unaware of what you do.
2150 And wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple. And wherever you may be you shall set yourselves towards it; that the people will have no room for debate with you, except those of them who are wicked. You shall not fear them, but fear Me; so that I may complete My blessings upon you and that you may be guided.
Let me give practical examples
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You are driving on I-10 (in USA) going west. You are somewhere, right ? Now WHEREVER you are on I-10, according to your fallacious interpretation, you are supposed to face the physical building of Masjid Alharam, how are you going to do it ? Remember, you are sitting in a car, driving on I-10, and you are supposed to be facing the physical building of Masjid Alharam which is supposedly located in Mecca, how are you going to face it in that situation ? If not then you are disobeying 2144, 2149, 2150.
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You are sitting in your friends house watching TV. His furniture is arranged in such a way that when you sit on his sofa, you are facing west. For argument sake, lets say that in that area, the physical building of Majid Alharam is east of you. Now in this situation, you are somewhere right ? How are you going to face the physical building of Masjid Alharam which is to your east, while watching TV facing west ? The only way is by rearranging all the furniture in your friends place so that you can face east. Do you do that when you visit your friends place ? If not you are disobeying 2144, 2149, 2150.
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You are sitting in your own home on the toilet facing west, and Masjid Alharam is towards the east. Now remember that according to 2144 you are supposed to face "al-masjid al-haram" WHEREVER you are. When you are sitting on the toilet, you are somewhere, right ? How can you face Majid Alharam on your east whil you are sitting on a toilet which is built in such a way that you are facing west when you are sitting on it ? If not, then you are disobeying 2144, 2149, 2150.
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You are standing for the salat in USA in a mosque, supposedly facing Masjid Alharam located in Mecca. The only problem is, Masjid Alharam is beyond the horizon in this particular situation. When you are standing during salat, if we draw an imaginary line straight in the direction you are facing, it will extend to a place in sky, so in actuality you are facing a place in the sky, instead of Masjid Alharam. Thus you are disobeying 2144, 2149, 2150.
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You are standing in the so called Kaaba, in Mecca. You have to perform salat in this situation. Which direction do you face ?
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You are sailing on a ship on the Pacific, and you are at a point which is directly opposite where Majid Alharam is located. Which direction do you face ? Actually, ANY direction you face at that point you will be facing the sky, as Masjid Alharam is beyond the horizon. Thus you will be disobeying 2144, 2149, 2150.
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You are on the Moon and the earth is on the opposite side at that particular moment. Which direction do you face while offering salat ? In this situation, if you are not facing the physical Masjid Alharam, then you are disobeying 2144, 2149, 2150.
Thus, if you cannot face the physical Masjid Alharam WHEREVER you are, then is The God asking us to do something that is impossible ? The only way to avoid such a contradiction in al-qur'aan and the only way possible to face "al-masjid al-haram" WHEREVER we are, is if it is a NON PHYSICAL focal point/target/goal.
even if an object is not in one's direct line of sight, it can still be faced. if you ask anyone to face the direction of a distant town or country, they will not see any impossibilty in this, just because the earth is spheroidal, it does not mean one cannot face another place. this is meaning that you will find anywhere in the world. to suggest that when God says "set your faces towards" or "face the direction of" He means something other than the commonsense notion of facing a direction is ludicrous. of course, a mental focus is also a commonsense and equally valid meaning.
some are saying that when, for example, a traditional muslim in a london masjid faces mecca, he is actually facing something in outer space. this idea that facing a direction or facing towards means face that direction that an electromagnetic beam (i.e. light) would follow is wrongly complicating a straightforward and universal meaning.
if someone is inside a building, this does not mean he cannot face a tree becuse the walls of his building are in the way. nowhere on earth will you find a common man who interprets face towards as look along a geodesic of sight. the fact that visible light cannot pass through the the walls is totally irrelevant. when someone tell you to drive straight ahead, they do not mean drive through the hill in front. face towards and object does not mean look and see that object.
it is also straightforward for a man on the moon to face mecca, he simply needs to face the earth. if he is on the face of the moon opposite to the earth, he can still face in the direction of mecca by facing in that direction; it does not matter that he cannot see the earth because it is obscured by the moon on which he is stood.
The Existence of al Masjid al Haram at the Time of Revelation
Also, if "masjid" as in "al-masjid al-haram" and "al-masjid al-aqsa" is physical, then there should have been physical buildings by those names during the revelation of al-qur'aan, otherwise the relevant passages will make no sense according to your fallacious interpretations. It is an established fact that the physical building by the name of Masjid Al-Aqsa was built in the Ummayad dynasty long after the revelation of al-qur'aan, thus it cannot be "al-masjid al-aqsa" talked about in Chapter 17. Even the staunchest sectarians admit that. If it is a physical building, then which building is "al-masjid al-aqsa" mentioned in 171 ? Please prove it by authentic archeological and authentic historical evidence.
to the best of my knowledge, there is no archeological evidence that these physical buildings existed at the time of revelation. however, neither is there proof that they did not exist.
Past Idolotrous Rituals at Mecca
- There is overwhelming archeological evidence that shows that the present so called Kaaba in Mecca is an exact replica of the cuboid idols of the pagans, and mindlessly spinning 7 times around this Kaaba and kissing it and drinking the "holy" water are an exact replica of the pagan rituals around their similar cuboid idols and shrines. He fails to explain how this Kaaba can then be the kaaba/albayt alharam mentioned in al-qur'aan with "do not set up partners with The God" being the criteria of its location (2226), and the absence of those rituals in al-qur'aan.
i do not see any Quranic evidence that implies that mecca cannot be al masjid al haram because people were worshipping idols. of course my knowledge of the Quran is very limited, so please point out any such parts of the Quran.
In Conclusion
i believe i have addressed all your points. please point out anything that i have missed.
please let me clarify my current position once again. nothing i in this posts proves that al masjid al haram is a physical object or location. however, i feel i have shown that it cannot be the institution you have suggested. in my opinion, the matter is still unresolved.
salam
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Peace sis Majidah,
The only strange part I found in the verse 4827 is "heads shaved, hair cut short".
But else I found that Br Tanveer's understanding also fit in these verses mentioning Al Masjid Al Haram.
I humbly request you to look closely at the original arabic of 4827 again. There is no word there for "hair" or "shaved". If it is translated the way you suggested, it would mean "heads shortened and cut", which would be ludicrous !
Please go through the notes on this verse again at the following link, towards the end of the article for detailed explanation of this issue
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg110854#msg110854
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Peace brother,
Thank you for taking the time to address some of the points. God willing, we should arrive at the truth by being patient, connecting with The God, letting al-qur'aan explain itself, using our gifts of mind, logic, and reasoning, and continued constructive discussion, and then following the best meaning.
Brother, you still have not addressed a very important issue of wherever you are, and some other points.
if God asks us to face towards a physical building then by facing that building we are obeying Him. as for those of previous scipture knowing it is the Truth, this neither proves that al masjid al haram is a physical building (at mecca or elsewhere), nor disproves it.
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If the people of previous scriptures know it is the truth from our Lord, and know it as they know their children (2146), then how come none of them knows about or acknowledges any "al-masjid al-haraam" at mecca or anywhere else ? After all, they are supposed to know it as they know their children. Please go and ask any one of the knowledgable people of previous scriptures and that will be empirical verification of this issue.
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It bothers me when people quote partial phrases and then base their conclusions on the partial phrase, instead of taking the whole phrase into account.
Brother, The God asks us to face towards "al-masjid al-haraam" WHEREVER WE ARE, and not just face towards "al-masjid al-haraam". Now please think with an open mind and address the following issues, which you have neglected in your previous post
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You are driving on I-10 (in USA) going west. You are somewhere, right ? Now WHEREVER you are on I-10, you are supposed to face al-masjid al-haraam, how are you going to do it ? Remember, you are sitting in a car, driving on I-10 going west, and you are supposed to be facing al-masjid al-haraam which is supposedly located in Mecca or Jerusalem, how are you going to face it in that situation ? If not then you are disobeying 2144, 2149, 2150.
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You are sitting in your friends house watching TV. His furniture is arranged in such a way that when you sit on his sofa, you are facing west. For argument sake, lets say that in that area, the supposed al-masjid al-haraam is east of you. Now in this situation, you are somewhere right ? How are you going to face al-masjid al-haraam which is to your east, while watching TV facing west ? The only way is by rearranging all the furniture in your friends place so that you can face east. Do you do that when you visit your friends place ? If not you are disobeying 2144, 2149, 2150.
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You are sitting in your own home on the toilet facing west, and al-masjid al-haraam is supposedly towards the east. Now remember that according to 2144 you are supposed to face "al-masjid al-haram" WHEREVER you are. When you are sitting on the toilet, you are somewhere, right ? How can you face al-majid al-haraam on your east while you are sitting on a toilet which is built in such a way that you are facing west when you are sitting on it ? If not, then you are disobeying 2144, 2149, 2150.
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Right now, you must be sitting in front of your computer, facing a certain direction, which is most likely not in the supposed direction of al-masjid al-haraam. If that is true, are you not disobeying 2144, 2149, 2150 ?
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When you go to sleep on your bed, you must lie down on your back with your face up at some time thus facing the sky, or on your side with your face not facing the supposed physical al-masjid al-haraam at some time. The moment you do that, you are disobeying 2144, 2149, 2150.
Now tell me the following
WHICH PHYSICAL DIRECTION IN THE WORLD IS SUCH THAT ONE WILL BE FACING THAT PHYSICAL DIRECTION WHEREVER ONE IS ?
I hope you can see clearly that this is an impossible interpretation.
from this verse (not having a good understanding of arabic or the rest of the Quran), it is not clear whether it speaks about God distinguishing or men distinguishing between the followers of the message from those "who turn on their heels". if it refers to men, then it is easier to distinguish between men facing different physical directions than it is to distinguish between men have disparate mental foci. this verse in no ways supports the argument of a mental qibla.
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The distinguishing is for both The God and the people. Suppose you take a test, and the teacher declares you in 1st position without announcing each person's test results to all others, would the students not complain and object to that and claim that it was not fair ?
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A hypocrite can easily pretend to be a believer and face a certain physical direction with the other believers, thereby deceiving them. It is, however, IMPOSSIBLE for a hypocrite to mentally keep facing the inviolable institution of obedience and be a hypocrite at the same time.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to distinguish a hypocrite from a believer just on the basis of facing a physical direction.
It is IMPOSSIBLE for a hypocrite to keep facing the inviolable institution of obedience.
The ONLY way to distinguish a hypocrite from a believer would be if the "qiblatan" is a mental one. For example, if one mentally faces the inviolable institution of obedience wherever one is, one cannot be a hypocrite, because the actions/deeds will always match that mental "qiblatan".
- What does piety have to do with facing a physical direction ?
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the angels, and the Scripture, and the prophets, and who gives money out of love to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves; and who honors the Connection, and who contributes towards betterment; as well as those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of good and bad and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and they are the righteous.
Are The God's words not clear ?
even if an object is not in one's direct line of sight, it can still be faced. if you ask anyone to face the direction of a distant town or country, they will not see any impossibilty in this, just because the earth is spheroidal, it does not mean one cannot face another place. this is meaning that you will find anywhere in the world. to suggest that when God says "set your faces towards" or "face the direction of" He means something other than the commonsense notion of facing a direction is ludicrous. of course, a mental focus is also a commonsense and equally valid meaning.
You did not address the following point
You are sailing on a ship on the Pacific, and you are at a point on the surface of the Earth which is directly opposite where al-masjid al-haraam is supposedly located physically. Which direction do you face, and why not the other direction ?
if someone is inside a building, this does not mean he cannot face a tree becuse the walls of his building are in the way. nowhere on earth will you find a common man who interprets face towards as look along a geodesic of sight. the fact that visible light cannot pass through the the walls is totally irrelevant. when someone tell you to drive straight ahead, they do not mean drive through the hill in front. face towards and object does not mean look and see that object.
I think you misunderstood the relevant point again. I was not mentioning any building but the supposed physical al-masjid al-haraam, or the supposed physical Kaaba itself
You are standing in the so called Kaaba, in Mecca. You have to perform salaat in this situation. Which direction do you face ?
Actually the "qiblatan" is not only for salaat, but for wherever one is. Even if you are not performing salaat, you are supposed to face al-masjid al-haraam wherever you are, i.e. in every possible anatomical orientation of the human body. Facing which direction will you stand or sit IN the so called Kaaba, and why ?
Remember, in the Kaaba, when you are facing a certain direction, a major portion of the supposed physical al-masjid al-haraam will be behind you or on your sides. Facing the direction of something physical means that all of that physical thing has to be in front of you.
it is also straightforward for a man on the moon to face mecca, he simply needs to face the earth. if he is on the face of the moon opposite to the earth, he can still face in the direction of mecca by facing in that direction; it does not matter that he cannot see the earth because it is obscured by the moon on which he is stood.
I hope you can see the logical impossibility of the part of your quote in red.
Let me remind you The God asks us to face the direction of al-masjid al-haraam WHEREVER we are, which means that we should be facing it in whatever anatomical position we are. What you are suggesting can only happen if one is in a perpetual bowing position while standing on the Moon with the Earth on the opposite side. Even if you are lying down, you will always have to lie on your stomach so you are facing the Earth. While you are sitting, you will have to sit in a bowing position with your face towards Earth at all times. Do you see the absurdity of what you are proposing ?
to the best of my knowledge, there is no archeological evidence that these physical buildings existed at the time of revelation. however, neither is there proof that they did not exist.
i do not see any Quranic evidence that implies that mecca cannot be al masjid al haram because people were worshipping idols. of course my knowledge of the Quran is very limited, so please point out any such parts of the Quran.
Asking someone to bring proof of a negative statement is illogical. The burden of proof is on someone making a positive statement.
For example, someone cannot say that "Iraq has WMD" and then ask others to prove him wrong by bringing proof that Iraq does not have WMD. The burden of proof is on that person to bring proof that Iraq does have WMD.
You cannot just say that "al-masjid al-haraam" was in Mecca at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan, and then ask others to bring proof that "al-masjid al-haraam" could not have been in Mecca at that time. You will have to bring proof that "al-masjid al-haraam" was in Mecca at that time. The burden of proof will be on you to prove the positive.
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Nowhere in al-qur'aan does it mention that "al-masjid al-haraam" is in the so called Mecca. If you think that "al-masjid al-haraam" is or was a physical location in Mecca or elsewhere, then bring proof for it please.
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There is ZERO evidence of the existence of a town named Mecca at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan. If you think that a town named Mecca existed at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan, then bring proof for it please.
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There is ZERO evidence of the existence of a physical building by the name of Kaaba in the so called Mecca at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan. In fact, there is evidence that shows that the pagan temple in the so called Mecca was renamed after the common noun "kaaba" in al-qur'aan, about 80-100 years after the revelation of al-qur'aan.
If you think that a physical building by the name Kaaba existed in the so called Mecca at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan, then bring proof for it please.
- There is ZERO evidence of the existence of a physical building by the name of Masjid Al-Haraam in the so called Mecca at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan. In fact, there is evidence that shows that such a physical building was constructed around the so called Kaaba many years after the revelation of al-qur'aan. The evidence also shows that at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan, there was no physical building by the name of Masjid Al-Haraam in the so called Mecca.
If you think that a physical building by the name Masjid Al-Haraam existed in the so called Mecca or elsewhere at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan, then bring proof for it please.
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The God also mentions "al-masjid al-aqsa" in al-qur'aan. It is an established fact that the physical building by the name of Masjid Al-Aqsa was built in the Ummayad dynasty long after the revelation of al-qur'aan, thus it cannot be "al-masjid al-aqsa" talked about in Chapter 17. Even the staunchest sectarians admit that. If it is a physical building, then which building is "al-masjid al-aqsa" mentioned in 171 ?
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The God tells us that His message is fully detailed and complete and details ALL things (6114-115, 6126, 12111, 1712), contains every example (1789, 1854, 3058, 3927) and clear explanation of everything (1689) relevant to our guidance to the straight path and is enough for our guidance (2951) and the prophet followed only the qur'aan (1015, 4105).
Did The God forget to tell us the physical location of al-masjid al-haraam in al-qur'aan ?
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