is following quran alone even quranic?
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{Quote}There are two main issues with this
1- You have no proof of this. Indeed the Qur'an says that the book came to your (Muhammad) heart and mind. The book is a wider designation than Qur'an. It encompasses the Qur'an and much more.{Hussein}I did not say anything. It is Quran that says like that. Quran tells him that "You and your nation did not know it earlier" and reminds him "You were not present there when so and so happened". I think for a man like you I need not quote the reference from the verses of Quran.
?Even if the prophet knew only the Qur'an, then you cannot assume that you will know of the Qur'an same as his knowledge. In fact, you and all of our knowledge is a fraction of his. So, you have to follow him, because he may have caught something or many many things that you and I missed. {Hussein}
If this could be considered an argument, perhaps there is none who ever claimed to know the Quran as the Last Messenger knew. But the question is how to determine what knowledge beyond the visible words of Quran he taught to people of his time?
Do you think the ?Hadith? of Allah was so complex/confusing/ mysterious that the words of Arabic could not simply narrate that? Quran is the Hadith of Allah and now it is the Qaul of the Last Messenger {Peace and salam always upon him}.
Do you think the Qaul of the Last Messenger is not sufficient but those people are more important who start with two ?Qala Qala? to understand the Qaul of the Messenger?
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Part of the miracle of the Qur'an is that it is simple at some level and complex at another.{Hussein}
But Brother,
This negates the tall claim of the Quran that it has been made easy to comprehend. Complexity is not in Quran, we make it complex for people when we assign meanings to its word according to our own perceptions and thoughts/knowledge, desires, motives, social/political considerations. Whether we could perceive something according to our present day knowledge or not we should translate the words of the Quran exactly according to the thought and perception of the Root from which a particular word is made. No complexity would arise.
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But Brother,
This negates the tall claim of the Quran that it has been made easy to comprehend. Complexity is not in Quran, we make it complex for people when we assign meanings to its word according to our own perceptions and thoughts/knowledge, desires, motives, social/political considerations. Whether we could perceive something according to our present day knowledge or not we should translate the words of the Quran exactly according to the thought and perception of the Root from which a particular word is made. No complexity would arise.
Simple and straightforward question
Whose knowledge of Quran explanation is better ??
-That of Holy Prophe PBUH
-Or that of yours
???????????
Be brave and come up with the straigforward answer (No "taamaktoonyan" -
The Last Messenger is the best person to "explain" {tabayyan} the Quran; who has a doubt about it? Allah had told him to "explain" {Bayan} is His responsibility. Allah first explained a verse by another revelation to the Messenger and he explained to the world at large. Neither Learned Bukhari and other six learned people were present while he was reciting Quran nor you and me. Messenger took the responsibility of the Book only; he did not say that after 250 years of his departure from the world there will be people like Bukhari etc who will collect his words and pass it on to other generations.
Whatever Learned Bukhari and others said is to be subjected to scrutiny/evaluation and the Criterion is Quran.
Do you accept Quran as the Criterion or Bukhari is the Criterion? -
The Last Messenger is the best person to "explain" {tabayyan} the Quran; who has a doubt about it? Allah had told him to "explain" {Bayan} is His responsibility. Allah first explained a verse by another revelation to the Messenger and he explained to the world at large. Neither Learned Bukhari and other six learned people were present while he was reciting Quran nor you and me. Messenger took the responsibility of the Book only; he did not say that after 250 years of his departure from the world there will be people like Bukhari etc who will collect his words and pass it on to other generations.
Whatever Learned Bukhari and others said is to be subjected to scrutiny/evaluation and the Criterion is Quran.
Do you accept Quran as the Criterion or Bukhari is the Criterion?You are always superfluous and push in the material which is not needed and it creates "PEARLS AND DIAMONDS" which ,when I pick up you mind it.So please not to scatter them so frequently.
Now coming to the point.Do you not try to explain what is
-Qibla
-Al-masjidul-Haram
to the people who do not know like me.???Did prophet ever explained to people as you are explaing to the people i.e
"What is meant by 'qibla"
"what is meant by -al masjidul-haram ??Or Ma3zallah he was worse than you in knowledge and he did not explain it to the people?
If Quran has already explained every thing as you perceive,then what are you being doing??
Why are you giving explanation about
-salat
-sujudAnd waisting pages of the internet ?
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Putting aside what is the value of this Hadith ?
First question to be settled is
Do we know about Quran explanation better or the Prophet PBUH??
This is fundamental Question because all other questions stem from it???
If you are brave enough ,give me clear answer .Of course the prophet is the best who would explain it, no doubt about that, and I do not think any one on this forum thinks otherwise.
Now, would you answer my question? What do you tink of that hadith? -
Of course the prophet is the best who would explain it, no doubt about that, and I do not think any one on this forum thinks otherwise.
Now, would you answer my question? What do you tink of that hadith?I assure you we will come to this "narration" also.But we have to move with a sequenceWe should not put cart before the horse.
Unless many questions are resolved ,such things cannot be comprehended.
You have accepted that he PBUH is the best person to 'explain the meanings of Quran"
Now the very next question is
If he PbUH new best of all ,thenDid he explain these meanings to the people or not ??
If he PBUH explained ,where is that explanation ?? -
Whatever Learned Bukhari and others said is to be subjected to scrutiny/evaluation and the Criterion is Quran.
Do you accept Quran as the Criterion or Bukhari is the Criterion?Do you think this is not a relevant or important question but just superfluous?
Quran and Bukhari both superfluous? Is this the koh noor heera from you to me.
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Whatever Learned Bukhari and others said is to be subjected to scrutiny/evaluation and the Criterion is Quran.
Do you accept Quran as the Criterion or Bukhari is the Criterion?Do you think this is not a relevant or important question but just superfluous?
Quran and Bukhari both superfluous? Is this the koh noor heera from you to me.
Mazhar Please .A serious discussion is going on.Do not try to detrack it ,otherwise ???
I assure you we will discuss it but certain questions need to be settled.If not then I will be sure you shed only "PEARLS AND DIAMONDS" -
Brother Mazhar,
Bring the Aya or Ayat that say that the Qur'an is easy and straightforward. If it is that easy, then why are the self righeous Qur'an aloners so much in disarray that they cannot come up with a united view of any major Qur'anic concept?!
Hussein
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Of course the prophet is the best who would explain it
Verse please?
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I assure you we will come to this "narration" also.But we have to move with a sequenceWe should not put cart before the horse.
Unless many questions are resolved ,such things cannot be comprehended.
You have accepted that he PBUH is the best person to 'explain the meanings of Quran"
Now the very next question is
If he PbUH new best of all ,thenDid he explain these meanings to the people or not ??
If he PBUH explained ,where is that explanation ??Please stop this habit of yours trying to evade answering questions. I answered your question, and you now want to be the one who throws questions? Why don't you want to answer? Because you will show that you do not know what "obey the messenger" really is?
Still, I will answer your question I do not know if he was asked to explain them. I know the answer they claimed came from him is wrong. Two probabilities
(me) Women are not created from a crooked rib because qur'aan makes no differene in male and female creation (as per the qur'aan) The prophet does not utter nonesense (as per the qur'aan). Conclusion The prophet could not have said this hadith ..therefore this hadith is a lie.
(you) (can you fill in your argument please?) -
The hadeeth in question is not very strong. It is the only hadeeth from it's narrator that Bukhari narrated. This puts some question marks about the degree of authenticity. The hadeeth goes like this
"Take care of the women for they were created from the rib and the top of the rib is the most crooked. If you try to straighten it, then it will break, so take care of women."
1- The hadeeth was talking to men regarding women. If he were talking to women about men, he could have said something similar but he was not.
2- The message of the hadeeth is positive. Do not push people too hard because you cannot change their nature or you will break them. The message is mainly to the men because they are the ones who want to push changes of the nature of others, women or otherwise. However, the hadeeth does not limit it's message only to women.
3- The Qur'an does say that Adam's spouse was created from him. The hadeeth is consistent with that.
4- The Qur'an says many negative things about humanity and men. It is not negative to point to limitations of some humans. The fact that this hadeeth did not talk about the limitations of men is because they were not the subject. Simple as that.
Take care all
Hussein
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The hadeeth in question is not very strong. It is the only hadeeth from it's narrator that Bukhari narrated. This puts some question marks about the degree of authenticity. The hadeeth goes like this
"Take care of the women for they were created from the rib and the top of the rib is the most crooked. If you try to straighten it, then it will break, so take care of women."
1- The hadeeth was talking to men regarding women. If he were talking to women about men, he could have said something similar but he was not.
2- The message of the hadeeth is positive. Do not push people too hard because you cannot change their nature or you will break them. The message is mainly to the men because they are the ones who want to push changes of the nature of others, women or otherwise. However, the hadeeth does not limit it's message only to women.
3- The Qur'an does say that Adam's spouse was created from him. The hadeeth is consistent with that.
4- The Qur'an says many negative things about humanity and men. It is not negative to point to limitations of some humans. The fact that this hadeeth did not talk about the limitations of men is because they were not the subject. Simple as that.
Take care all
Hussein
I agree 100% with you that this is a weak hadeeth, I also believe this is a baseless hadeeth, which is hearsay, conjecture, and worst of all, a lie against Allah. As said in 693, who is more evil than that?
1 - An awful lot of hadeeth happen to have "men talking regarding women" yet very few if any derogatory towards men.
2 - If the hadeeth is metaphorical, then it can be said the same for men. Do the prophet's words run out, since according to hadeethists, everything he spoke and did was according to revelation? Or do you not subscribe to that school of thought?
3 - No it does not. No it does not. 693, again. It says something completely different that could be taken as if Adam's spouse was created from him, but then we run into a slight, ahem, problem, the idea of God being stupid enough to originate humanity from a series of incestuous relationships. In this light, it can be said that the creation of man is miraculous, since the odds of such an incestuous family/species surviving is very slim. Of course, this is what we call "tripe".
4 - No it does not. It addresses deficiencies in humans equally, whereas in hadeeth, the majority of inhabitants of the fire are... women. According to other hadeeth, someone reciting surah X 7x10^y times will get 7x10^z rewards. I wonder what these women did to lose all that reward.
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Please stop this habit of yours trying to evade answering questions. I answered your question, and you now want to be the one who throws questions? Why don't you want to answer? Because you will show that you do not know what "obey the messenger" really is?
Still, I will answer your question I do not know if he was asked to explain them. I know the answer they claimed came from him is wrong. Two probabilities
(me) Women are not created from a crooked rib because qur'aan makes no differene in male and female creation (as per the qur'aan) The prophet does not utter nonesense (as per the qur'aan). Conclusion The prophet could not have said this hadith ..therefore this hadith is a lie.
(you) (can you fill in your argument please?)Dear Samia
The discussion was going smoothlyYou replied to nerspi
You are right. No one got all the knowledge. People with knowledge are the experts in the filed your querry belongs to. If you want to understand about a disease, for example, you do not search for a righteous person, but you ask a doctor. If you want to know how much your house is worth, ask a surveyor. In the court, judges should seek testimony or proofs from the experts.
I endorsed your statement by replying
I absolutely agree as we need advice of
-doctor for disease
-engineer for building a house
-lawyer for legal matters
We have to consult the Holy ProphetPBUH for explanation of the Quranic laws
His role was "
1To recite the verses
2To teach the book and philosophy of Deen
3To purify the soulsWho can be more expert than the Holy Prophet PBUH himself.
Out of context you suddenly put the question
How about asking him how the female was created?
I told you that this matter must be discussed in a proper sequence and we should not put "cart before the horse" and assured you to discuss this narration at a proper time.
Anyway you evaded the actual question which is 'Marker " of Quranist.Now the question concerning thread ;
1Would you please tell me how male was created according to Quran ?
2Would you please tell me how female was create according to Quran ? -
Bring 693 and then prove your point that you cannot prove. Oh, I forgot, it is your inerring logic that translates and not the language.
hussein
I quoted 693 for the obvious first statement, not to prove a point. 41, 698, 7189 and others are what you are talking about, correct?
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Salaam all,
This is the Aya where the spouse of the first human, Adam, was created from him
41 O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate and from them twain hath spread abroad a multitude of men and women. Be careful of your duty toward Allah in Whom ye claim ( your rights ) of one another, and toward the wombs (that bore you ). Lo! Allah hath been a Watcher over you
As for the incest issue. God allows exceptions to rules when needed, even today if humanity disappeared and we have only a brother and sister, then God will allow them to marry.
Hussein
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Salaam all,
This is the Aya where the spouse of the first human, Adam, was created from him
41 O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate and from them twain hath spread abroad a multitude of men and women. Be careful of your duty toward Allah in Whom ye claim ( your rights ) of one another, and toward the wombs (that bore you ). Lo! Allah hath been a Watcher over you
Z Odd, what leads you to conclude from verse 41 that the spouse had been created from Adam, rather than, the other way around- Adam the spouse had been created min-nafsin wahidatin?