Focal Point

unknownuser

Salaam brother,

There is no mention of any word meaning "prayer" in 2143. It also does not say anything about being "formerly observed".

2143 And as such, We have made you a balanced nation so that you may be witness over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you. And We did not make the focal point/direction (al-qiblata) that you became on (allatee kunta 3alayhaa) except to distinguish who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. It was a great thing indeed except for those whom God had guided; God was not to waste your belief. God is Merciful and Compassionate over the people.

It is talking about the "qiblata" that he became on, referring to the setting of "qiblata" towards "al-masjid al-haraam" in 2144, and not the previous direction/directions.

In other words, it talks about "qiblata" of "al-masjid al-haraam" distinguishing who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels.

It was a great thing indeed (very difficult) for those who will turn on their heels, to start facing a mental qiblata of the inviolable institution of obedience, instead of continuing to face their physical pagan idols, but it was easy for those whom The God had guided.

The God does not mention what the old direction/directions were and hence they are completely irrelevant.

unknownuser

Salaam all,

2142 mentions about them turning away from the "qiblata" that they WERE on, i.e. the former qiblata, and the wording used is "allatee kaanoo 3alayhaa", meaning "that they WERE on".

2143 uses the wording "allatee kunta 3alayhaa", meaning "that you BECAME on" (referring to the new qiblata of al-masjid al-haraam). If 2143 was pointing to the same qiblata that they WERE on, i.e. the old qiblata, then the wording should have been the same as in 2142, i.e. "allatee kaanoo 3alayha".

This is my understanding but it could be wrong. I would request those who are well founded in Classical Arabic to correct me if I am wrong. Thanks.

ignoramus

salam

whilst arabic experts are looking at brother Tanveer's post, would you mind commenting on . http//www.quraninenglish.com translates it as "make evident", brother Tanveer's translation is "distinguish".

thank you.

salam

unknownuser

Salaam brother,

From Project Root List, according to Lane's Lexicon

= Ayn-Lam-Miim = to mark/sign/distinguish, creations/beings, world, science/learning/knowledge/information, aware/know. By means of which one knows a thing, hence it signifies world or creation, because by it the Creator is known. alim (pl. ulama) - one who is learned/wise or knows.

http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

"To distinguish" means "to mark off as different, to discern, to set apart as different, to show as different, to make prominent or eminent". "Distinguish" is between two categories such as in 2143.

"To make evident" means "to prove/demonstrate" or "to make obvious/manifest/apparent". The Arabic word would be "waadhi7" or "zaahir". "Make evident" is not between two categories.

ignoramus

Salaam brother,

From Project Root List, according to Lane's Lexicon

= Ayn-Lam-Miim = to mark/sign/distinguish, creations/beings, world, science/learning/knowledge/information, aware/know. By means of which one knows a thing, hence it signifies world or creation, because by it the Creator is known. alim (pl. ulama) - one who is learned/wise or knows.

http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

"To distinguish" means "to mark off as different, to discern, to set apart as different, to show as different, to make prominent or eminent". "Distinguish" is between two categories such as in 2143.

"To make evident" means "to prove/demonstrate" or "to make obvious/manifest/apparent". The Arabic word would be "waadhi7" or "zaahir". "Make evident" is not between two categories.

salam brother

thank you very much for your help. i appreciate it.

salam

unknownuser

Salaam brother,

thank you very much for your help. i appreciate it.

You are most welcome brother. Please take your time and ponder over all the possibilities carefully and verify everything for yourself before trusting it.

unknownuser

Hello Tanveer,

Nowhere in al-qur'aan does it mention that "al-masjid al-haraam" is in the so called Mecca. If you think that "al-masjid al-haraam" is or was a physical location in Mecca or elsewhere, then bring proof for it please.
There is ZERO evidence of the existence of a physical building by the name of Masjid Al-Haraam in the so called Mecca at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan. In fact, there is evidence that shows that such a physical building was constructed around the so called Kaaba many years after the revelation of al-qur'aan. The evidence also shows that at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan, there was no physical building by the name of Masjid Al-Haraam in the so called Mecca.

If you think that a physical building by the name Masjid Al-Haraam existed in the so called Mecca or elsewhere at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan, then bring proof for it please.

The God also mentions "al-masjid al-aqsa" in al-qur'aan. It is an established fact that the physical building by the name of Masjid Al-Aqsa was built in the Ummayad dynasty long after the revelation of al-qur'aan, thus it cannot be "al-masjid al-aqsa" talked about in Chapter 17. Even the staunchest sectarians admit that. If it is a physical building, then which building is "al-masjid al-aqsa" mentioned in 171 ?
http//www.jewishmag.com/59mag/al-aqsa/al-aqsa2.htm

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Mosque

http//www.stanford.edu/~jamila/Aqsa.html

http//2jay.wordpress.com/2007/04/25/masjid-al-aqsa/

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masjid_al-Nabawi

http//www.alshindagah.com/Shindagah75/alaqsa_mosque.htm

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masjid_al-Haram

http//www.geocities.com/mutmainaa/mosque/kabah.html

There is ZERO evidence of the existence of a town named Mecca at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan. If you think that a town named Mecca existed at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan, then bring proof for it please.
There is ZERO evidence of the existence of a physical building by the name of Kaaba in the so called Mecca at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan. In fact, there is evidence that shows that the pagan temple in the so called Mecca was renamed after the common noun "kaaba" in al-qur'aan, about 80-100 years after the revelation of al-qur'aan.

If you think that a physical building by the name Kaaba existed in the so called Mecca at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan, then bring proof for it please.
http//www.mefeedia.com/entry/3351244/

http//www.bible.ca/islam/islam-kaba-history.htm

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba

http//www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13045

http//www.ezsoftech.com/hajj/hajj_article1.asp

The God tells us that His message is fully detailed and complete and details ALL things (6114-115, 6126, 12111, 1712), contains every example (1789, 1854, 3058, 3927) and clear explanation of everything (1689) relevant to our guidance to the straight path and is enough for our guidance (2951) and the prophet followed only the qur'aan (1015, 4105).
Such claims are controversial and contradicting several other verses of the Quran.

Peace!

Leoxyz

Peace brother,

There is ZERO evidence of the existence of a town named Mecca at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan. If you think that a town named Mecca existed at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan, then bring proof for it please.
There is ZERO evidence of the existence of a physical building by the name of Kaaba in the so called Mecca at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan. In fact, there is evidence that shows that the pagan temple in the so called Mecca was renamed after the common noun "kaaba" in al-qur'aan, about 80-100 years after the revelation of al-qur'aan.

PEARL OR DIAMOND OF THE DAY
A KNOWLEDGE OF QURANIST -- SUBHANALLAH /MASHALLAH

EVIDENCE IS PRESENT SIR

Importance of Makkah

Picture of the Kaaba taken in 1880Academic historians, however, state with certainty only that Makkah was a shrine and trading center for a number of generations before Prophet Muhammad . The extent of Makkan trade has been hotly debated. Some historians believe that Makkah was a waypoint on a land route from southern Arabia north to the Roman and Byzantine empires, and that Arabian and Indian Ocean spices were funneled through Makkah. Patricia Crone, in her book Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam, argues that the Meccans were small merchants dealing in hides, camel butter, and the like.

According to the Qur'n and Muslim traditions, the city was attacked by an Ethiopian Aksumite army led by Abraha in 570, the year of Muhammad's birth. The attack was said to have been repelled by stones dropped by thousands of birds, followed by a plague.

Before the time of the Islamic prophet Muhammad, Makkah was under the control of the Banu Quraish. Muhammad, a member of the Banu Quraish, exiled from the city for preaching against paganism, returned to the city in triumph in 630 and after removing the cult images from the Kaaba, dedicating it as the center of Muslim pilgrimage. (For further information, see the main article, Conquest of Mecca.)

View of Mecca 1910After the rise of the Islamic empire, Makkah attracted pilgrims from all over the extensive empire, as well as a year-round population of scholars, pious Muslims who wished to live close to the Kaaba, and local inhabitants who served the pilgrims. Due to the difficulty and expense of the Hajj, the annual pilgrimage was small compared to the millions that swell Makkah today. Pilgrims arrived by boat, at Jedda, and came overland, or joined the annual caravans from Syria or Iraq. The city was small. 18th and 19th century maps and pictures show a small walled city of mud-brick houses crowded around the mosque.

Makkah was never the capital of the Islamic empire; the first capital was Medina, some 250 miles (400 km) away. The capital of the caliphate was soon moved to Kufa by the fourth Caliph Ali and then to Damascus by the Ummayads and Baghdad by the Abbasids and then to Cairo after the Mongol invasion, and then at last to Constantinople by the Ottomans.

the Kaaba , Mecca 1937Makkah re-entered Islamic political history briefly when it was held by Abd-Allah ibn al-Zubayr, an early Muslim who opposed the Umayyad caliphs. The caliph Yazid I besieged Makkah in 683. Thereafter the city figured little in politics; it was a city of devotion and scholarship. For centuries it was governed by the Hashemite Sharifs of Mecca, descendants of Muhammad by his grandson Hassan ibn Ali. The Sharifs ruled on behalf of whatever caliph or Muslim ruler had declared himself the Guardian of the Two Shrines. Makkah was attacked and sacked by Ismaili Muslims in 930. In 1926, the Sharifs of Makkah were overthrown by the Saudis, and Makkah was incorporated into Saudi Arabia.

On November 20, 1979 two hundred armed Islamist dissidents led by Saudi preacher Juhayman al-Otaibi seized the Grand Mosque. They claimed that the Saudi royal family no longer represented pure Islam and that the mosque, and the Kaaba, must be held by those of the true faith. The rebels seized tens of thousands of pilgrims as hostages and barricaded themselves in the mosque. The siege lasted two weeks, and resulted in several hundreds deaths and significant damage to the shrine, especially the Safa-Marwa gallery. While it is the Saudi forces that carried out the assault, they were assisted with weapons and planning by a small team of advisors from France's GIGN commando unit.

Current Status
The city has grown substantially in the last several decades, as the convenience and affordability of jet travel has increased the number of pilgrims participating in the Hajj. Thousands of Saudis are employed year-round to oversee the Hajj and staff the hotels and shops that cater to pilgrims; these workers in turn have increased the demand for housing and services. The city is now ringed by freeways, and contains shopping malls and skyscrapers.

SOURCE http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca

Jack

Such claims are controversial and contradicting several other verses of the Quran.

First, subjective.

Second, start a new thread in quran divinity section and mention such contradictions

unknownuser

Peace all,

Nice unverifiable hearsay story but still ZERO authentic evidence of existence of Mecca at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan. I can write a better story of existence of Mecca than that if I tried.

What are the original references of this story ?

Any authentic evidence anyone ?

This has been extensively discussed on this forum in the past. One can use the search function.

According to the Qur'n and Muslim traditions, the city was attacked by an Ethiopian Aksumite army led by Abraha in 570, the year of Muhammad's birth. The attack was said to have been repelled by stones dropped by thousands of birds, followed by a plague.

The lie of the century in red above !!

Authentic references please !

Chapter 105 says nothing about Mecca or Kaaba. What 105 is really about according to al-qur'aan has been discussed extensively on this forum. One can use the search function.

According to archeological evidence, there is no mention of Mecca in the expedition of Abraha to South Arabia, and there is no authentic evidence of any "elephants" in that expedition any more than the "flying horse". This also has been discussed extensively on this forum in the past. One can use the search function.

Oh ! one more thing; according to archeological evidence, the expedition of Abraha was around 550 CE, not 570 CE. This also has been discussed extensively on this forum in the past. One can use the search function.

A KNOWLEDGE OF QURANIST -- SUBHANALLAH /MASHALLAH

I AM NOT A QURANIST OR A QUR'AAN ALONER. This is the zillionth time I have stated that on this forum. One can use the search function.

The signs are not just in al-qur'aan but in the horizons and within us also

4153 We will show them Our signs in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things?

Leoxyz keeps asking for references but then he comes out and posts LIES and ACCUSATIONS without any authentic proofs or evidences.

2875 And We will extract from every nation a witness, then We will say "Bring forth your proof." They will then realize that all truth belongs with God, and what they had invented will abandon them.

I will request the moderators to issue Leoxyz a warning and take disciplinary action against him for slandering/accusing/insulting me with the label of Quranist and making unsubstantiated claims about al-qur'aan without backing it with evidence.

According to forum rules

2] Please note that this forum is primarily dedicated to the study and understanding of the Scripture (Quran). Thus, mocking it or not being able to back-up claims with specifics will all result in deletion of such posts and/or removal of topic and/or disciplinary action being taken against the offending member.

3] Respect other users of the forum. Language and/or material of vulgarity, obscenity, harassment, profanity or insulting nature, whether it is direct or suggested, will NOT be tolerated. Any messages containing such language or material will be moved to the trash section or deleted, without notice and may result in disciplinary action being taken against the offending member.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8177.0

Leoxyz