Secularism: The Devil?s greatest trick
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What is Secularism?
Quoting from the book World Arrogance. (1992), by A. Zidan.
pp.93-94?
?Secularism? implies that the Divine Guidance, worship of God, and obedience to Him, should be confined to the personal life of each individual and except for the small sphere of a person?s private life, all other affairs of this world should be settled purely from the worldly viewpoint, according to our own wishes and expediency. In such matters it is out of the question to think of what GOD may have commanded, what His Guidance consists of and what the Divine Books may lay down. This attitude owes its origin to the reaction that set in among the Western peoples as a result of their hatred of the man-made theology of Christian missionaries, a theology which had become a curse for them and which forged their shackles. Gradually, however, this attitude developed into an independent theory of life and then became the foundation of ?modern civilisation?.
One often hears the utterance, ?religion is a private affair between GOD and man?. This brief sentence is in fact the creed of ?modern civilisation?. It implies that if a man?s conscience bears witness to the fact that there is a GOD Who should be worshipped, he is welcome to do so in his individual and personal life. But GOD should have nothing to do with this world and its collective affairs. The system of life built upon the foundation of this creed seeks to disassociate from the influence of GOD and Religion all the relations between man and man and between man and this world. Culture, education, economics, law, parliament, politics and administration of public affairs and international relations are all to be divested of this influence. Whatever is done in all these numerous aspects of life should be regulated by one?s own whims and knowledge. It would be irrelevant, indeed wrong in principle, and even a sign of the utmost ignorance to say that GOD has prescribed certain principles and laid down some commandments for us for the regulation of such matters.
pp.97-100?
The theory that GOD and Religion are concerned only with the individual life of man is completely meaningless, having nothing to do with reason and argument. It is perfectly obvious that the relations of man and GOD cannot lie beyond either of two alternatives. Either GOD is The Creator of man and the world in which he lives as well as being its Master and Sovereign, or He is not. If He is neither The Creator nor The Master, nor again The Sovereign, then it is entirely unnecessary to have any relations with Him. It is utterly absurd to worship a being entirely unconcerned and having nothing to do with us. But if He is in reality our Creator, Master, and Sovereign and so also of this universe, then it is equally meaningless that His jurisdiction should be limited to the private life of an individual and from the very point from which the contact of one person with another commences, His jurisdiction should cease and come to an end.
If this limitation has been imposed by GOD Himself, then there should be some authority for it. But if man has assumed this independence himself and discarded GOD from his collective life, then this constitutes an open rebellion against his Creator, Master, and Sovereign. And only a lunatic can claim to combine with this rebellious attitude, the claim that he accepts GOD, His Religion, Guidance and directions in his individual life. There can be nothing more absurd than that each person should claim individually to be the servant and slave of GOD, but when these separate individuals collectively form themselves into a society, they should cease to be servants of GOD Almighty; that each component in a society should constitute GOD?s servants. But the composite whole of these parts should not be His servants. Surely it is a proposition which a madcap alone can conceive of.
Again it passes our understanding completely that if we do not need GOD and His Guidance and direction in our family affairs, in the affairs of our town and city, in our schools and colleges, in our bazaars and markets, in our parliaments and government houses, in our high courts and secretariat offices, in our cantonments and police lines, and in our battlefields and peace conferences, then what other sphere of life is left in which He should be needed at all? Why should such a GOD be accepted and believed in or worshipped, Who is either so useless that He does not give us any guidance in the affairs of our life or (we seek the refuge of GOD in saying so) that He is so foolish that none of his directions to regulate our affairs appear to us to be reasonable or practicable?
So much for the intellectual side of this question. But when we look at it from the practical viewpoint, the consequences are extremely serious. The fact of the matter is that whichever aspects of mans? life are divested of relationship with GOD, will be contacted by the devil himself. Truly speaking, the private life of an individual is nothing but a mere name. Man is a social being and his whole life is collective and social. To start with, he is born as a result of the social contact of a mother and a father. On coming into this world, he opens his eyes in a family and as soon as he comes of age he comes into contact with society, a brotherhood, a township, a nation, a cultural system, a social system, an economic system, and a political system.
All these numerous contacts which bind him to others and the other people to him, on the rectitude of them all indeed depends the welfare and success of each individual and of all the human beings as a whole. And GOD Alone is capable of vouchsafing to man stable, enduring, equitable and correct principles, and to prescribe proper limits for the regulation of human contacts. Whenever man acts independently of Divine Guidance, nothing is left of the permanent and firm principles of truth and justice. This is because after depriving himself of GOD?s Guidance, no other source is left to seek guidance from except man?s own passions, imperfect knowledge and experience.
That is why in a society based on the secular system, or irreligiousness, principles are made and unmade every now and then due to the shifting passions of the people. You can see how in every aspect of human relations have entered the evils of injustice, oppression, faithlessness, unbelief and lack of mutual confidence. Individual, class, tribal and racial selfishness have overshadowed all human affairs. Starting with the relations between any two persons and right up to the relations between nations, there is no aspect which is intact and free from evil and crookedness. Every individual, group, class, nation and country within its own sphere of jurisdiction has whenever possible evolved laws, principles and regulations to secure its own particular ends and objectives and none of them cares in the least what effect or influence this will have on other individuals, groups, classes and nations. The only thing for which they care is power and force.
Whenever and wherever there is the fear of force they retract their hands and feet which are otherwise spread out beyond all limits. But it is obvious that force is not a conscious and equitable thing. It is nothing more than blind power; hence, it has never been able to bring about a proper balance and equilibrium in human affairs. Whoever possesses greater force does not merely squeeze others to the extent desirable but thinks more and more about expanding himself. Hence, irreligiousness or secularism implies nothing more than this That whoever adopts it as his creed and attitude in life will reduce himself to an irresponsible and unbridled of his own self, be it an individual, a group, a country, a nation, or a group of nations. (Zidan, 1992, pp.97-100)
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For Quran's stance on Secularism, also checkout
Islam and Secularism
by
Dr Syed Mustafa Ali
In the movie, The Usual Suspects (1995), ?Verbal?, one of a number of criminals in an identity parade, makes the following fascinating remark during a conversation with his interrogator
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled,
Was convincing the world he didn?t exist.
Those of you who know what the word ?secularism? means may be wondering about the relevance of the above statement to this talk. Some of you might even argue - on the basis of their understanding of what secularism means - that the greatest trick the Devil ever played was to convince the world that God does not exist. However, I tend to think that Verbal was right, and for (at least) two reasons First of all, the idea that ?God does not exist? ? or atheism - is nowhere near as widely accepted as one might think. What this means is that if this is the Devil?s greatest trick, it?s not such a great trick after all because it hasn?t fooled everyone, and I think that that?s an important feature of a really great trick; secondly, and perhaps a little controversially, from an Islamic perspective, there really is no such thing as atheism.
But if God exists, then where is He because He certainly doesn?t seem to be present in the world? Perhaps He is too busy looking after the rest of the universe to bother with us. Perhaps God is in His Heaven. But then, who is minding the store down here, on Earth? Who is it that is running ?the show?? Is it a magic show? How great are the tricks? What?s the greatest trick that can be pulled? And who is the magician? I?m sure by now you have probably guessed the answers to all these questions. However, you may still be a little surprised by the ways in which these answers are going to unfold.
In this lecture, I am going to attempt to explain how the Devil has played his greatest trick. However, in order to appreciate what is to follow, we will first need to travel back into time, way back into what we might refer to as prehistory, to the dawn of human consciousness?
To read the complete article, CLICK HERE
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To me Sectarianism (readReligion) is the devil's greatest trick.
Dividing humankind through dogmatic beliefs and spreading hatred among them is always been his strategy.To me Secularism eq Anti-Sectarianism is
Uniting humankind and spreading love and caring among them regardless of race,beliefs,gender,social status etc..Salam
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Peace,
Thank you Jafar, for a good post.
I couldn't force myself to completely read the article, it's mistaken understanding of secularism is just depressing.
Secularism hasn't got a beef with 'god', but with his self appointed representatives. Secularism pulls them down from their high horses to the level of mortals like the rest of us.
Nadeem
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You're welcome nadeem..
Now you can understand why Sectarian/Religious people hates secularism so much right?
Salam
2256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.
1682 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .
6107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.479-80 Say'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."
1128 He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If I act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it??
1753-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith.
21107-109 (O Prophet?) 'We have not sent you except to be a mercy to all mankind" Declare, "Verily, what is revealed to me is this, your God is the only One God, so is it not up to you to bow down to Him?' But if they turn away then say, "I have delivered the Truth in a manner clear to one and all, and I know not whether the promised hour is near or far."
2267 To every people have We appointed ceremonial rites which they observe; therefore, let them not wrangle over this matter with you, but bid them to turn to your Lord. You indeed are rightly guided. But if they still dispute you in this matter, `God best knows what you do."
24.54. Say "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).
8821 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.
4828 He it is Who has sent forth His Messenger with the Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to the end that tie make it prevail over every religion, and none can bear witness to the Truth as God does.
3616 17 (Three Messengers to their people) Said, "Our Sustainer knows that we have indeed been sent unto you, but we are not bound to more than clearly deliver the Message entrusted to us.'
3941 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.
426 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach ....
6412 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.
6725 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner."
Secularism is when religion is left for the individual and the state does not impose it on anyone. hail
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Salaam.
To me Sectarianism (readReligion) is the devil's greatest trick.
Dividing humankind through dogmatic beliefs and spreading hatred among them is always been his strategy.The dogmatic beliefs and hatred will result whenever we are taken away from Allah's deen, whether towards sectarianism or secularism. We are either in Allah's deen or we are in Shaitaan's. If we are in Allah's deen, then He receives our ibadah/service. If we are not, then whether you label it Secularism or Sectarianism or whatever, we are in the Shaitaan's deen and he receives our ibadah. There is no middle way.
To me Secularism eq Anti-Sectarianism is
Uniting humankind and spreading love and caring among them regardless of race,beliefs,gender,social status etc..This is what the Quran aims to do. Can't the Quran do this better than Secularism can?
Secularism hasn't got a beef with 'god', ....
Right, thats what the article is saying, if you read it completely.
...but with his self appointed representatives. ...
Who do you think the seculars are representing?
...Secularism pulls them down from their high horses to the level of mortals like the rest of us.
Again, can't the Quran do this better?
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peace
I don't know what the "correct" definition of "secular" is, but I think it means that your beliefs should only govern you individually. You can't force your beliefs on anyone else.
For example Rudy Giuiani (running for president of the US of A) says that even though he believes abortion is wrong, he will not make it illegal, because that is his personal belief and others may not share it. Even though I hate Giuliani, I agree with him there.God has given everyone freedom of choice, and we can't take that away. We can't make anyone do anything. No compulsion, remember?
Lying and believing in falsehood are bad things and god punishes those who are guilty.
But can WE punish someone for lying to his mommy, or for believing that when a person dies he gets his own planet? No, we can't.The only thing we can disallow other people from doing is that which harms other beings.
So religion is a very personal thing. It's between you and god. And I think the quran very much agrees with that.
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peace
I don't know what the "correct" definition of "secular" is, but I think it means that your beliefs should only govern you individually. You can't force your beliefs on anyone else.
peace.
Quoting from the article
?Secularism? implies that the Divine Guidance, worship of God, and obedience to Him, should be confined to the personal life of each individual and except for the small sphere of a person?s private life, all other affairs of this world should be settled purely from the worldly viewpoint, according to our own wishes and expediency.
Therefore, it is not about forcing or not forcing your beliefs on others. The article explains this very well.
For example Rudy Giuiani (running for president of the US of A) says that even though he believes abortion is wrong, he will not make it illegal, because that is his personal belief and others may not share it. Even though I hate Giuliani, I agree with him there.
Suppose Rudy Giuiani says that even though he believes murder is wrong, he will not make it illegal, because that is his personal belief and others may not share it. Do you agree with him there?
And does it look like it is about forcing your beliefs?
God has given everyone freedom of choice, and we can't take that away. We can't make anyone do anything. No compulsion, remember?
Why not? Citizens are made to obey the law, right? And if they don't, they are punished. They are not required to believe, but they are required to submit. Same goes with the laws given in the Quran.
Lying and believing in falsehood are bad things and god punishes those who are guilty.
But can WE punish someone for lying to his mommy, or for believing that when a person dies he gets his own planet? No, we can't.They are free to believe or disbelieve. But obeying the law is necessary.(49/14)
The only thing we can disallow other people from doing is that which harms other beings.
That too. We can prevent them from doing wrong. If we have the power to do the right thing or to right the wrong things, we should use that power regardless of what the people believe or whether they like it or not. The Quran can help us best in recovering from the harms we have already inflicted upon ourselves and others. Thats why it calls itself a shifa/healing for those who believe.
So religion is a very personal thing. It's between you and god. And I think the quran very much agrees with that.
'Eemaan' is a personal thing. The Quranic concept of 'ad-deen' or 'deenillah' is not same as religion and is not just a personal thing between God and the individual.
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peace Fahad,
Suppose Rudy Giuiani says that even though he believes murder is wrong, he will not make it illegal, because that is his personal belief and others may not share it. Do you agree with him there?
And does it look like it is about forcing your beliefs?
Murder is wrong. As I said, every action that harms another being (without good reason) is wrong.
And you can argue that abortion is murder....but let's not go into that right now.
Let's take pre-marital sex as an example. You think it's wrong, but for you to make that a law is not fair. We have to preserve everyone's god given freedom.Why not? Citizens are made to obey the law, right? And if they don't, they are punished. They are not required to believe, but they are required to submit. Same goes with the laws given in the Quran.
And that's why most laws we have shouldn't even exist.
The only law we need is this Don't harm other people and don't take away their freedom.
That's it.They are free to believe or disbelieve. But obeying the law is necessary.(49/14)
Obeying the law is not necessary.
That too. We can prevent them from doing wrong. If we have the power to do the right thing or to right the wrong things, we should use that power regardless of what the people believe or whether they like it or not. The Quran can help us best in recovering from the harms we have already inflicted upon ourselves and others. Thats why it calls itself a shifa/healing for those who believe
You can't prevent anyone from doing anything. It's not right, and it's not practically possible.
Eemaan' is a personal thing. The Quranic concept of 'ad-deen' or 'deenillah' is not same as religion and is not just a personal thing between God and the individual.
Okay. But what does the Quran mean when it says "there is no compulsion in deen?"
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Peace Lobster.
Fahad Suppose Rudy Giuiani says that even though he believes murder is wrong, he will not make it illegal, because that is his personal belief and others may not share it. Do you agree with him there?
And does it look like it is about forcing your beliefs?
Lobster Murder is wrong. As I said, every action that harms another being (without good reason) is wrong.
And you can argue that abortion is murder....but let's not go into that right now.Ok.
Let's take pre-marital sex as an example. ...
Pre-marital sex may not seem harmful to you immediately, but in the long run, it is harmful for the society at large(check out http//www.geocities.com/justiceparadigm/presex.pdf). We may not immediately realize the harms of the things made unlawful in the Quran, but God can see the harms(17/32). But lets not go into that right now.
...You think it's wrong, but for you to make that a law is not fair. We have to preserve everyone's god given freedom.
Well, its not just my thinking, and I am not the one making the law. The law is given in the Quran.
Fahad Why not? Citizens are made to obey the law, right? And if they don't, they are punished. They are not required to believe, but they are required to submit. Same goes with the laws given in the Quran.
Lobster And that's why most laws we have shouldn't even exist.
The man-made(secular and religious) laws, yes.
The only law we need is this Don't harm other people and don't take away their freedom.
That's it.True freedom is when people are free to fulfill their purpose. The purpose is none except to serve Allah(51/56), to be in His deen. A society where His deen is dominant can best provide the freedom to fulfill that purpose(24/55).
Fahad They are free to believe or disbelieve. But obeying the law is necessary.(49/14)
Lobster Obeying the law is not necessary.
Quranically, it is.
Fahad That too. We can prevent them from doing wrong. If we have the power to do the right thing or to right the wrong things, we should use that power regardless of what the people believe or whether they like it or not. The Quran can help us best in recovering from the harms we have already inflicted upon ourselves and others. Thats why it calls itself a shifa/healing for those who believe
Lobster You can't prevent anyone from doing anything. It's not right, and it's not practically possible.
Well, you can punish, if not prevent.
Fahad Eemaan' is a personal thing. The Quranic concept of 'ad-deen' or 'deenillah' is not same as religion and is not just a personal thing between God and the individual.
Lobster Okay. But what does the Quran mean when it says "there is no compulsion in deen?"
It means that dislike/resistance/unwillingness/compulsion is futile. Like one can just go with the flow, or he can bring in resistance, but still be taken over by the flow. Because everyone ultimately submits to Allah , willingly AND unwillingly/under compulsion(3/83).
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peace Fahad
Pre-marital sex may not seem harmful to you immediately, but in the long run, it is harmful for the society at large(check out http//www.geocities.com/justiceparadigm/presex.pdf). We may not immediately realize the harms of the things made unlawful in the Quran, but God can see the harms(17/32). But lets not go into that right now.
I skimmed through the article (for now) and it seems that you consider a high divorce rate harmful. I don't.
And we're talking about individual rights here, not the outcomes of collective actions.
It's our right to drive cars to work every morning, but in the long term, it is harmful to society because when everyone drives their car to work, it results in traffic congestion. But the traffic congestion is not due to an individual decision, but a collective one. So you can't punish people for, or prevent them from, driving their cars to work.
So even if pre-marital sex somehow ends up being harmful because Everyone is doing it, you can't say that the decision to do it is wrong. (although I still don't see how it by itself can ever be harmful...but we're not discussing sex here)Well, its not just my thinking, and I am not the one making the law. The law is given in the Quran.
It doesn't matter what is given in the Quran. All that matters is what you can prove.
And it doesn't matter if what you believe is right...you can't take away the freedom of choice of others.
We all know that doing heroine is bad for us. But you cannot make someone else not do heroine, unless their action directly results in harm to another. I can shut myself in my room and smoke heroine all day, but I am not doing anything wrong, and you can't punish me for it.The man-made(secular and religious) laws, yes.
Yes. But I would put it as "all laws that take away an individual's freedom/rights"
True freedom is when people are free to fulfill their purpose. The purpose is none except to serve Allah(51/56), to be in His deen. A society where His deen is dominant can best provide the freedom to fulfill that purpose(24/55).
Well, that's what you believe. There are people who do not believe that. So you must allow them to choose whatever they want.
You have no authority to define what the purpose of others is. You can only define it for yourself.Lobster Obeying the law is not necessary.
Quranically, it is.
There used to be a law in the country where I live now which required all black people to give up their seats to white people in public buses. Is that a law you would support?
How about the law that says the government can put you in jail without any charges?
So you would follow all laws, as unfair and disgusting as they might be, just because Quranically, you must?Well, you can punish, if not prevent.
You can't punish either. The only thing you might punish people for is crimes against other people. You cannot put people in jail for filming themselves nude, or for eating pork, or for having sex without wearing a wedding ring.
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To me Sectarianism (readReligion) is the devil's greatest trick.
Dividing humankind through dogmatic beliefs and spreading hatred among them is always been his strategy.To me Secularism eq Anti-Sectarianism is
Uniting humankind and spreading love and caring among them regardless of race,beliefs,gender,social status etc..Salam
YES !
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Peace
Isn't premarital sex harmful to society?
Look at the west and how many single parents there are, and how many people can't afford kids while they have them....The government would have to come in and help those people so the kids are taken of, that in turn increases spending, and increasing taxes. For there to be a limited government there has to be limited spending.
I am not even talking about the psychological aspect, just look at how screwed up the west is.
Why isn't doing heroine like a madman harmful to others?
Again if the person doesn't have enough money for medical treatment, who's going to have to help out? Isn't he also hurting his family? Heroine addicts tend to not have much money because they blow in on heroine.
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Peace
Isn't premarital sex harmful to society?
Look at the west and how many single parents there are, and how many people can't afford kids while they have them....The government would have to come in and help those people so the kids are taken of, that in turn increases spending, and increasing taxes. For there to be a limited government there has to be limited spending.
I am not even talking about the psychological aspect, just look at how screwed up the west is.
Why isn't doing heroine like a madman harmful to others?
Again if the person doesn't have enough money for medical treatment, who's going to have to help out? Isn't he also hurting his family? Heroine addicts tend to not have much money because they blow in on heroine.
peace Dargento,
Single parents are the fault of pre-marital sex? Are you serious?
To me, two people can be committed to each other regardless of whether they have signed a legal document or not.
And no, all those single parents are not harming society....they are not anyone's burden.
Irresponsible sex is a personal decision, and you get what you sow. Sure you may be ruining your life, but that's your decision and you have every right to make it.
The poor are not anyone's responsibility. No one has to help them. The government SHOULD NOT step in to help them.
Charity is not a compulsion upon anyone. We are supposed to give out of the goodness of our hearts. Helping people is a good thing, but no one is being forced to do it.If you can't pay your hospital bills, well, that's your personal problem. If someone helps you out, that's great for you, and it was their personal decision to help you out.
No one can be forced to pay your hospital bills. That's just wrong.All these "welfare" states...what the government is doing is stealing.
The important thing here is that every individual has the god given right to do whatever the hell they want with their lives, and no one can stop them unless they are harming others.
Everyone has the right to keep their property and their money. No one can take it away from you, not even the government, even if it is to feed the poor. If you don't want to help anyone, if you want to be an asshole, you have the right to that. -
peace Dargento,
Single parents are the fault of pre-marital sex? Are you serious?
To me, two people can be committed to each other regardless of whether they have signed a legal document or not.
And no, all those single parents are not harming society....they are not anyone's burden.
Irresponsible sex is a personal decision, and you get what you sow. Sure you may be ruining your life, but that's your decision and you have every right to make it.
The poor are not anyone's responsibility. No one has to help them. The government SHOULD NOT step in to help them.
Charity is not a compulsion upon anyone. We are supposed to give out of the goodness of our hearts. Helping people is a good thing, but no one is being forced to do it.If you can't pay your hospital bills, well, that's your personal problem. If someone helps you out, that's great for you, and it was their personal decision to help you out.
No one can be forced to pay your hospital bills. That's just wrong.All these "welfare" states...what the government is doing is stealing.
The important thing here is that every individual has the god given right to do whatever the hell they want with their lives, and no one can stop them unless they are harming others.
Everyone has the right to keep their property and their money. No one can take it away from you, not even the government, even if it is to feed the poor. If you don't want to help anyone, if you want to be an asshole, you have the right to that.http//www.opfs.org.uk/factfile/stats01.html
Significant number of women who are single parents, pre-marital (38%). The statistics show that CLEARLY, women take the stress of such divisions (89% of single parents are female...), and in general, women take the added labour. As the phrase goes, "hump and dump".
You are correct when you say "To me, two people can be committed to each other regardless of whether they have signed a legal document or not". What government/legal jurisdiction was there in early times?
And no, all those single parents are not harming society....they are not anyone's burden.
Please do your own survey showing that poverty is not more common amongst single parents vs married/dual. Especially in a welfare state, single parents are a burden.
Irresponsible sex is a personal decision, and you get what you sow. Sure you may be ruining your life, but that's your decision and you have every right to make it.
You ruin three peoples' lives, eventually.
The poor are not anyone's responsibility. No one has to help them. The government should NOT step in to help them.
I take it you don't accept the Quranic judgement. That philosophy has never worked out either.
Charity is not a compulsion upon anyone. We are supposed to give out of the goodness of our hearts. Helping people is a good thing, but no one is being forced to do it.
See above.
If you can't pay your hospital bills, well, that's your personal problem. If someone helps you out, that's great for you, and it was their personal decision to help you out.
No one can be forced to pay your hospital bills. That's just wrong.Purely personal opinion.
The important thing here is that every individual has the god given right to do whatever the hell they want with their lives, and no one can stop them unless they are harming others.
Everyone has the right to keep their property and their money. No one can take it away from you, not even the government, even if it is to feed the poor. If you don't want to help anyone, if you want to be an asshole, you have the right to that.More personal opinion, and further, opinion that is rarely, if ever, implemented.
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Please do your own survey showing that poverty is not more common amongst single parents vs married/dual. Especially in a welfare state, single parents are a burden.
I never argued that it's not common amongst single parents.
And I argued that welfare states shouldn't exist.You ruin three peoples' lives, eventually.
and what can WE do to prevent it?
All we can do is help those people. But can you force people to help others? Well, yes you can, but is it right?That's the crux of the issue...is it right to force people to do something, even if it is the right thing?
I take it you don't accept the Quranic judgement. That philosophy has never worked out either.
Where in the Quran does it say we must force others to give money to the poor, and if they refuse, we must steal it from them?
And what do you mean by "has never worked out?"
I'm talking about preserving people's freedom of choice...if that is achieved, it will have worked out, if it is ever implemented in a country again.Purely personal opinion.
Well, instead of just stating the obvious again and again, why don't you refute what I'm saying?
This is the premise here There is no compulsion, no one can force anyone to do anything, people's freedom of choice should be valued.
Do we agree on that? (i'm not so sure) -
peace Fahad
Fahad Pre-marital sex may not seem harmful to you immediately, but in the long run, it is harmful for the society at large(check out http//www.geocities.com/justiceparadigm/presex.pdf). We may not immediately realize the harms of the things made unlawful in the Quran, but God can see the harms(17/32). But lets not go into that right now.
Lobster I skimmed through the article (for now) and it seems that you consider a high divorce rate harmful. I don't.
The article is about more than just the divorce, man. But lets not get into whether pre-marital sex is harmful or not. The thread is about Quran's stance on secularism.
And we're talking about individual rights here, not the outcomes of collective actions.
It's our right to drive cars to work every morning, but in the long term, it is harmful to society because when everyone drives their car to work, it results in traffic congestion. But the traffic congestion is not due to an individual decision, but a collective one. So you can't punish people for, or prevent them from, driving their cars to work.You CAN punish them for driving cars irresponsibly or without a license, to be on the safer side. Or for having sex before marriage.
Fahad Well, its not just my thinking, and I am not the one making the law. The law is given in the Quran.
Lobster It doesn't matter what is given in the Quran.
To you it doesn't. But this thread is about Quran's stance. Here I expect discussion with believers in the Quran, or at least from a Quranic point of view. Or I would have posted the article at faithfreedom.org's forum instead.
All that matters is what you can prove.
The Quran is the ultimate proof. If you don't believe in it, its your problem.
And it doesn't matter if what you believe is right...you can't take away the freedom of choice of others.
Thats just your beliefs and your thinking. God decides how much freedom people get.
We all know that doing heroine is bad for us. But you cannot make someone else not do heroine, unless their action directly results in harm to another. I can shut myself in my room and smoke heroine all day, but I am not doing anything wrong, and you can't punish me for it.
I'm not sure, I'll have to look into it.
Fahad The man-made(secular and religious) laws, yes.
Lobster Yes. But I would put it as "all laws that take away an individual's freedom/rights"Yes. But I would put it as "all laws that take away an individual's freedom/rights given by God in the Quran"
Fahad True freedom is when people are free to fulfill their purpose. The purpose is none except to serve Allah(51/56), to be in His deen. A society where His deen is dominant can best provide the freedom to fulfill that purpose(24/55).
Lobster Well, that's what you believe.
I backed it up. That is what the Quran says. Or try to prove that it is saying something else. Like I have said, this thread is about Quran's stance. Here I expect discussion with believers in the Quran, or at least from a Quranic point of view.
There are people who do not believe that. So you must allow them to choose whatever they want.
They can choose to live outside the Quranic domain.
You have no authority to define what the purpose of others is. You can only define it for yourself.
Yeah, thats why I gave you their Creator's reference.
Lobster Obeying the law is not necessary.
Fahad Quranically, it is.
Lobster There used to be a law in the country where I live now which required all black people to give up their seats to white people in public buses. Is that a law you would support?
How about the law that says the government can put you in jail without any charges?
So you would follow all laws, as unfair and disgusting as they might be, just because Quranically, you must?Not those man-made laws, man! I meant the Quranic ones!
Fahad Well, you can punish, if not prevent.
Lobster You can't punish either....No Quranic reference?
...The only thing you might punish people for is crimes against other people.
All commandments and prohibitions in the Quran are for our good, to prevent us harm. Even if there was a command to kill ourselves, it would have been better for us, to prevent us trouble(4/66). All those who claim to believe in the Allah and the Quran should think about this verse.
You cannot put people in jail for filming themselves nude,...
I am not sure about any Quranic punishment for nude filming.
... or for eating pork, ...
Yeah, can't remember reading any Quranic punishment for this either.
...or for having sex without wearing a wedding ring.
The punishment is very clear in the Quran.
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I am not even talking about the psychological aspect, just look at how screwed up the west is.
Salaam dargento
i am a westerner, have been living half of my life outside the west. And i can tell you for sure that middle eastern societies are just as "screwed up". Even if single parents are a rarer occurence - but there are so many different aspects.
I heard this argument about the decadent west so often on FM - and i think it is not an argument at all. Just a value judgment.
LK