The only question asked from people destined to Hell is about Grand Quran alone.
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The only question asked from people destined to Hell is about Grand Quran alone.
The basic reason of recording of episodes in our memory is that we had listened and seen them with our eyes. Anything, any happening and video recording which has been seen with the eyes remains in the memory quite conspicuously and its retrieval/recalling is always easy. It is always easy to recall and see what has already been seen and recorded in the memory.
Allah knows what has already happened and also knows what will happen in future. He knows what was said by anyone in the past and what will be said by people on the Day of Judgment and that what will happen in heaven and hell and also about the exchange of words between the people.
He knows everything past, present and future. Allah wants us to know the Day of Judgment in a manner as if we have seen it physically so that it is well inscribed in the memory and remembered every minute. The happenings of the Day of Judgment have mostly been described in the past tenses as if that has occurred and seen by us.
I have seen the ?video? of Day of Judgment and conspicuously and strangely noticed that none asked people regarding why they did not follow the sayings of old scholars, hadith writers, past people and their forefathers.
{Refer 6130}
{Refer 735}
{Refer 3971-72}
{Refer 2528-29}
I hope none of the writers have called these words , , as hadith and scholarly sayings. This is ?My Ayat?, ?Ayat of your Sustainer Lord?, ?The Quran?.
A student wishing to appear in the paper of Botany has prepared very well in mathematics and every question about it is in his memory but did not read book of botany.
Dear friends,
Do you think this student will pass the examination?
Or his destiny is absolute failure.The question paper and answer to be written on the question paper was even told to the father of humanity
{Refer 228}
{Refer 20123}
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Salaam Mazhar,
Well then here you go
1- Do you think in the days of Last Messenger there were not Hadith popular amongst the people?
2- Don't you think they must be attributing many hadiths to Ibrahim, Musa, Isa alaihumusalam?
3- Did the messenger believe in any hadith of Ibrahim, Musa and Isa narrated and told to him by people?
Yes. He accepted many of them. In one of his hadeeths he told the Muslims that it is ok to narrate from the people of Israel. He also set his conditions What is consistent with our message accept it as true and what contradicts reject it and what is neutral, then stay neutral. So, he did never do what you guys call for.
4- Why the Messenger did not accept any hadith quoted by people to him?
1- He actually did accept a lot, and without always asking for authentification.
2- He was a messenger who could tell what is true and what is not true because of revelation from God.
3- His message is Muhaminina= reign over old messages. So, he abrogated what was before him.
4- That question does not apply to today for the following
A) None of us is messenger. So, we have to work within our means.
B) We are still bound by that message while not bound by the messages before it. That message included Qur'an and orders of the prophet not explicitly mentioned in the Qur'an.5- Was the last Messenger not the follower of Millat Ibrahim?
If yes, don't you think he should have accepted the hadith continuously narrated by many generations of the jews and christians?6- Why was the last messenger a non believer of hadith prevalent in his days?
See above.
7- Do you not agree that in response to every hadith narrated to him he simply asked the people to show him the revealed book where it was so written or bring the concrete evidence from knowledge?
8- If the Last Messenger insisted for showing the statement recorded in the revealed book or evidence from knowledge and now if anyone insists for the same criteria is he not the true follower of the Last Messenger?
9- Messenger said this, and then also asked who gives the guarantee about the statement uttered on the basis of sayings of their earlier generations.1- Wrong. He did not ask for proof of everything they said.
2- When he did as the Qur'an asked for the Jews to bring the Torah, he did not ask for proof of authentification of the Torah, which came thousands of years after Moses. So, this is equal to asking for the book of Bukhari, why? The Qur'an mentioned that there was some corruption in the Torah and the Qur'an asked for the same Torah to be brought and read. It means that the Qur'an accepted that the Torah that was in Medina, despite it's potential for corruption, contained a lot of good that it was valid. You should apply that same rule on Bukhari and other books of hadeeth, especially that their methodoly of authentification is clearer in preservation than the Torah that was in Medina.10- Has anyone of seven or more narrators of hadith taken responsibility for anything in writing?
yes
11- Is it not true that no body, except the LIARS stand guarantee to something outside the revealed Book, Quran.
Not true. There are also liars that hide behind the Qur'an alone veneer. People exploit anything.
12- Is it not correct that as an intelligent man you do not accept an opened pill if I say that it is just aspirin unless you verify it that it is truly aspirin?
13- If you do not take aspirin without verification, being an intelligent man, then would those not be considered by you as stupid of the highest order if they accept the word of people attributed by them to the Last Messenger just on its face value when the stakes involved are much greater than health problem, possibility of landing in hell?
1- Wrong. You take it if you trusted what the other say to you. As a patient you take what the doctor tells you because you trust that he knows better than you do. So, you accept many things on safety and trust. In fact, the majority of things. If you ask for proof for everything in life, you will be paralyzed.
2- If you are truthful to this principle, then prove objectively that the Qur'an is complete with no additions nor subtractions from it.
14- Don?t you agree that the Last Messenger left in writing a warning for us
{Refer 10108}
The Aya does not point to writing. The Qur'an, coming to illiterate people, was preserved more by memory than by writing. Actually, depending on writing alone makes corruption easier, because the knowledge is known to a few and becomes easily corruptible. Read the book "Misquoting Jesus". The early Muslims knew this and therefore they did not trust words written, whether in hadeeth or Qur'an, if they did not hear those words from the narrator who also heard it and wrote it from someone before him.
- Are these not the words, Hadith, Qaul of the messenger uttered by him and narrated to the posterity by only one narrator, Allah?
Yes, but the Qawl of the messenger is not limited to the words of the sender, God. The messenger can have his own words which are consistent with the words of the sender and God asked us to obey him, have iman=safety and trust in him. So, just because the Qur'an is definitely included, it does not mean that it should exclude the other possibility. In fact, linguistically speaking, you have no grounds to limit it.
- Is this not the most authentic hadith reached to us in the same words expelled from the tongue of the Last Messenger?
Yes and this does not mean that the less authentic hadeeth should be discardable. There is nothing in the Qur'an that suggests that we should discard the words of the messenger, in fact the opposite. Even the messenger is a lowly being when compared to God, he is still better than all of us and we are bound, by God's command to follow and obey him. Insisting on otherwise is pure bias.
Take care and have a great day.
Hussein
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Well then here you go
Quote
1- Do you think in the days of Last Messenger there were not Hadith popular amongst the people?2- Don't you think they must be attributing many hadiths to Ibrahim, Musa, Isa alaihumusalam?
3- Did the messenger believe in any hadith of Ibrahim, Musa and Isa narrated and told to him by people?
Yes. He accepted many of them. In one of his hadeeths he told the Muslims that it is ok to narrate from the people of Israel. He also set his conditions What is consistent with our message accept it as true and what contradicts reject it and what is neutral, then stay neutral. So, he did never do what you guys call for.{hlatif}Kindly quote not many; but just two of the hadith of jews/christians/idolators which the Last Messenger accepted and followed? {Peace and salam is always upon him}
"What is consistent with our message accept it as true and what contradicts reject it"
The Jews used to say {Refer 291}
And you know what they meant by "what has been sent to us"; nothing but the collection of their Ahadith.
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Salaam Mazhar,
Kindly quote not many; but just two of the hadith of jews/christians/idolators which the Last Messenger accepted and followed? {Peace and salam is always upon him}
1- Bukhari volume 3 page 1275
Inform from me, even an Aya and quote from the children of Israel and no problem, and whoever lies about me with intention, then let him find his place in Hell.
2- One of the hadeeths of the stoning. The prophet passed the rule of the stoning from the Torah and applied it on two Jewish people.
The Jews used to say {Refer 291}
And you know what they meant by "what has been sent to us"; nothing but the collection of their Ahadith.
And the criticism is not that they used the Torah. The criticism in the Aya is that they refused to accept what came after it, the Qur'an and the evangile of Jesus. This is close to the criticism that would be directed at you where you say I follow Qur'an and hadeeth is to throw away.
Take care and have a great day.
Hussein
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Quote
Kindly quote not many; but just two of the hadith of jews/christians/idolators which the Last Messenger accepted and followed? {Peace and salam is always upon him}1- Bukhari volume 3 page 1275
Inform from me, even an Aya and quote from the children of Israel and no problem, and whoever lies about me with intention, then let him find his place in Hell.
2- One of the hadeeths of the stoning. The prophet passed the rule of the stoning from the Torah and applied it on two Jewish people.
Quote
The Jews used to say {Refer 291}And you know what they meant by "what has been sent to us"; nothing but the collection of their Ahadith.
And the criticism is not that they used the Torah. The criticism in the Aya is that they refused to accept what came after it, the Qur'an and the evangile of Jesus. This is close to the criticism that would be directed at you where you say I follow Qur'an and hadeeth is to throw away.
Take care and have a great day.
Out of the two quoted, one is relating to order of ?stoning?, exact words or number not quoted, neither the words of prevalent hadith of Jews quoted. The other is not the hadith of Jews/Christians/idolaters but merely a statement attributed to the Last Messenger {Peace, respects and salam to him always} and it was already mentioned against No. 3 of your post.
If I say that in Hijaz, there has never been a tradition of stoning amongst any type of people living there nor in the species of monkeys of that area, would you be able to quote from any history source to indicate/opposite to it?
In the verse the words of the "intelligent leaders" of Jews are quoted. Kindly read them, they were very careful in the selection of words. They did not say we refuse to accept Quran. This could have put them in trouble before their own people since Quran confirmed what had earlier been revealed upon them. How can you deny a book that confirms and certifies what was revealed upon you? If they would have said to their people that we accept this statement of Quran how could they satisfy their own men by denying the other things narrated in the Quran? Look at the "diplomacy and political" touch in their statement. "We believe in what was revealed upon us". If they believed in Torat there was no objection in it. Were they not referring to what were their own man made stories as "revealed upon us" there was little justification to confront them with a new question as stated in the end of the verse.
Brother, it is better way that we discuss and resolve point by point. From general discussion I will revert to specific verses of the Quran which negate any such action on the part of the Last Messenger.
I wish you happiness.
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Salaam Mazhar,
6 2499
The messenger brought a jewish man and woman who committed adultery. He asked what do you find in your book? They answered our rabbis introduced "tahmim the face andTajbiyah". Abdullah bin Salam said O messenger of Allah, ask them to bring the Torah, so it was brought and one of them put his hand on the Aya of stoning and read before it and after it. Bin Salam said, raise you hand and the Aya of stoning was below it, so they were stoned-----
So, the Torah, which is hadeeth per you definition since it was corrupted and not authenticated, was used for this ruling.
Here is another
2 704The prophet (pbuh) cam to medina and saw that the Jews were fasting on the day of Ashura, so he asked what is this? They said, this is a blessed day. This is the day that God saved the Israelites from their enemy, so Moses fasted in it. He (the prophet) said I have more right in Moses than you and so he fasted in it and ordered people to fast it.
As for the Aya, here is what someone more knowledgeable than you (picktal)translated it
291 And when it is said unto them Believe in that which Allah hath revealed, they say We believe in that which was revealed unto us. And they disbelieve in that which cometh after it, though it is the truth confirming that which they possess. Say (unto them, O Muhammad) Why then slew ye the Prophets of Allah aforetime, if ye are (indeed) believers?Remember that your thought process and reasoning does not matter if it is against what God said in his book. In this case, your reasoning about how they and their people would have reacted does not matter because you were not there and the Aya says something way different from what you are trying to convey.
Take care
Hussein
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As for the Aya, here is what someone more knowledgeable than you (picktal)translated it
291 And when it is said unto them Believe in that which Allah hath revealed, they say We believe in that which was revealed unto us. And they disbelieve in that which cometh after it, though it is the truth confirming that which they possess. Say (unto them, O Muhammad) Why then slew ye the Prophets of Allah aforetime, if ye are (indeed) believers?{Hlatif}
The translation of more knowledgeable Pickthall suffers from two defects, one he did not place quotation mark to differentiate the saying of the Jews and then the verdict given about them by Allah. Then he translated the word ?qatl? as ?slew? which is not correct since the Jews never murdered {physical killing} a Nabi or Rasoul. But this is a separate issue for discussion.
We believe in that which was revealed unto us.
"We believe in what was revealed upon us". {Mazhar}
What is the difference between both the two which could make you to give the verdict ?more knowledgeable than you??
?And they disbelieve? is the statement of Allah about them. Jews did not say that ?We do not believe in Quran?.
Brother, it is a normal psyche of the traditionalists that to impress the audience they keep using sarcastic remarks to divert their attention from the main question/issue. You have also evaded answering the main question posed in the last post; non existence of practice of stoning amongst human beings and monkeys in Hijaz.
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If you are truthful, bring the Arabic words and then translate them with honesty. No translator will have a perfect translation, but whatever the error of Picktall was, the point still stands on the meaning of "yakfuroona bima ma Waraahu= they reject what is after him" After the TORAH includes the Qur'an according to history.
If you want to insist that the Jews did believe in the Qur'an then bring a historical proof. Why? because this Aya, as much as you try to twist it, will not support you.
Peace
Hussein
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And when it is said to them "Believe in what Allah has sent",
They replied {said} "We believe in what was sent to us".
I merely said that this is their statement. They were the traditionalists who do not say a thing straight. They state things in a twisted manner. Allah said what in fact their statement means;
"And they refuse what is in front of that and that is a statement of fact".
About Quran it has been said that it is a statement of proven fact not like the conjectural stories they were narrating in the name of "what has been sent to us".
After the TORAH includes the Qur'an according to history.
No it is not according to history. It is accrding to Quran
Main question still needs your kind attention please.
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Your 16 questions were answered. As for your translation, you are still playing with it. For example this statement
I merely said that this is their statement. They were the traditionalists who do not say a thing straight. They state things in a twisted manner. Allah said what in fact their statement means;
"And they refuse what is in front of that and that is a statement of fact".
This is what they said and what God said about them. Proof is this part
"Say why do you kill the prophets of Allah if you are believers?!" here it is pointing that they may not even believe in what their own books because they had history of killing or attempting to kill some of their messengers.The text of the Aya does not support you, no matter how you try to manipulate it.
About Quran it has been said that it is a statement of proven fact not like the conjectural stories they were narrating in the name of "what has been sent to us".
The Qur'an never said that what was sent to them is conjecture. Proof is the Aya that you placed without translating
No it is not according to history. It is accrding to Quran
I will translate
"He brought down upon you (muhammad) the book by the binding truth declaring true what is in front of him and He brought down the Torah and Evangile from before, guidance to the people and He brought down the differentiator"So, God never mentioned the Torah as untrue. Also, the Qur'an often asked the Jews of the medina to bring the Torah for discussions and proofs, even though it was "inauthenticated hadeeth" by your standards.
Take care and have a great day.
Hussein
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The question that needs reply/information was
If I say that in Hijaz, there has never been a tradition of stoning amongst any type of people living there nor in the species of monkeys of that area, would you be able to quote from any history source to indicate/opposite to it?