Hell
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Peace CosmicDancer,
I hope that you are genuinly seeking answers.
I will try to give you an illustration of "hell".
Someone doing mischief, harming people around him, fooling them without paying attention to any sentiment of remorse, shame or regret (because surely one does feel "bad" when doing "bad", it is innate)... All this adds up, creating a great amount of remorse. When one is young and healthy, one doesn't care about any of this, thinking he will live and keep his strenght and power forever, hiding in the depth of his heart all these unconfortable sentiments.
But once he start loosing his might, this remorse, shame, and regret show up, overwhelming his mind, "burning" him from all sides, drowning him in torrents of torment with pain and suffering.
So, just look around you, people that you know, whatever their beliefs are, when they get older, some of them live in a bliss "paradise" having no fear (they have no regrets, they were upright with people around them), and some others live in torment and fear, having no time nor power to change whatever mischief they created.
I hope that helps.
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How do those things prove the existence of a Hell which tortures unbelievers?
That's why I asked you to define 'unbeliever'. Unbeliever is a harsh term in my opinion and it doesn't mean one who rejects 'al-quran' or God even. A disbeliever is one who commits evil and vice. You will not find one example in al-quran of a disbeliever doing good things.
Also see
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11531.0
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You are asking irrational questions. Hell is a consequence of deeds. deeds follow belief. You yourself know this and have no problem with HUMANS prosecuting and punishing people for there ENTIRE life in jail. Yet you have a problem with GOD doing the same? This is illogical.
SHM, Jail is not the Hell described in the Quran. The life imprisonment, capitol punishment and various other penalties inflicted and accounted for on wrongdoers, does not seem enough for your alleged merciful & gracious god. In the Quran, this god portrays himself as a narcist, a sadist rather than an all eloquent, well-expressed and passionate. The irrationality and illegitimacy lies within the framework of asinine religious beliefs that has no grounds. -
"people who establish partners to God will not be forgiven and are going to hell".
How is it even possible for any human to re-create an imaginary self deluded fathomless partner of another fathomless man-made alleged God and then send them to an imaginary Hell for they will not be forgiven? brickwall This god must be the world's biggest fashion, a super idiot, a super jealous, a total loser, and a drama man has ever produced and Muslims have made enough of a mumbo-jumbo (khicheri) out of him. The notion of "no god but God" has always remained physical in all ancient history and man later modified it to thump it upon an imaginary heavenly one. -
SHM, Jail is not the Hell described in the Quran. The life imprisonment, capitol punishment and various other penalties inflicted and accounted for on wrongdoers, does not seem enough for your alleged merciful & gracious god. In the Quran, this god portrays himself as a narcist, a sadist rather than an all eloquent, well-expressed and passionate. The irrationality and illegitimacy lies within the framework of asinine religious beliefs that has no grounds.
The irrationality lies with this misconception you and CosmicDancer seem to have that a being that is most merciful cannot be just and firm. The debate on what exactly hell is technically is no really relevant. I myself believe that all descriptions of Hell within the Quran are analogical and not figurative. At its core, these are grave warnings. HOWEVER, the purpose of Hell within the Quran AND bible are clear, a place of ultimate accountability. Yet you and CosmicDancer seems to believe this concept of just, accountability, and retribution for our deeds and actions are unfair and asinine from GOD since ?God create the rules??!?
How illogical is that.To me, it is totally irrational from you Ganteel and CosmicDancer to accept punishment and accountability WE HUMANS place on other people (including our own selves) as justifiable , yet when it spoken from GOD, it ?? lies within the framework of asinine religious beliefs that has no grounds?
That is B.S
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How is it even possible for any human to re-create an imaginary self deluded fathomless partner of another fathomless man-made alleged God and then send them to an imaginary Hell for they will not be forgiven? brickwall This god must be the world's biggest fashion, a super idiot, a super jealous, a total loser, and a drama man has ever produced and Muslims have made enough of a mumbo-jumbo (khicheri) out of him. The notion of "no god but God" has always remained physical in all ancient history and man later modified it to thump it upon an imaginary heavenly one.
Idolatry comes in many forms and is not only about idols humans create within the minds. They are indeed real beings humans idolized and consider to be GOD him. This is illustrated in the Quran for example
1028
On the day when we summon them all, we will say to those who worshiped idols, "We have summoned you, together with your idols." We will have them confront each other, and their idols will say to them, "We had no idea that you idolized us.Somehow you have a great misconception that idolatry mean ?imaginary self deluded fathomless partner of another fathomless man-made alleged God? the Quran and LIFE testifies to the opposite. That idols can be imaginary and yet 99% of the times are really. For example, Buddha was a real human being, Jesus was a real human being, Muhammad was a real human being, and all this past individuals are indeed idolized.
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peace
Okay, everyone who believes in an eternal hell, just address these two points
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If god is all merciful, how can god create an ETERNAL hell? Isn't there a contradiction?
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There is no proof that a physical place called Hell exists. Even if it is not physical, but just a mental experience, there is no evidence that we will experience this after death.
So what are you basing your claim on?
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peace
Okay, everyone who believes in an eternal hell, just address these two points
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If god is all merciful, how can god create an ETERNAL hell? Isn't there a contradiction?
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There is no proof that a physical place called Hell exists. Even if it is not physical, but just a mental experience, there is no evidence that we will experience this after death.
So what are you basing your claim on? -
2074, please say what state someone is if they are neither alive, nor dead.
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There is physical proof that a place resembling hell exists, in fact, the universe is littered with these Hells. Go outside at night and you can see millions and millions and milllions of hells. There is zero evidence of anything after death, in any case.
Personally, I see this thread, like someone already stated, as an attempt to justify disbelief in God, and nothing more. How does the existance/non-existance of hell affect your ability to do good works? It doesn't.
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The irrationality lies with this misconception you and CosmicDancer seem to have that a being that is most merciful cannot be just and firm.
I am not suggesting that at all. It is you and all such believers to even think that a Creator is a "being" and the "most" merciful, which makes this god a limited physical entity. This also relates to the notion of "no god but God", where all other gods were destroyed and only the Chief God left alone to worship and that is how monotheism came about. Do you see any other God beside Allah at Kaba? The "no god but God" scenario also puts emphasis directly onto Muhammad viz-a-vis becoming the "most" merciful (verses 9128-129).The debate on what exactly hell is technically is no really relevant. I myself believe that all descriptions of Hell within the Quran are analogical and not figurative. At its core, these are grave warnings. HOWEVER, the purpose of Hell within the Quran AND bible are clear, a place of ultimate accountability. Yet you and CosmicDancer seems to believe this concept of just, accountability, and retribution for our deeds and actions are unfair and asinine from GOD since ?God create the rules??!?
How illogical is that.
You allude that Hell is not really relevant and not figurative, yet talk about a figurative God and His punishment somewhere in the heavens called Hell, whilst making the figurative God a male "being" (a HE - a male dominated descriptive form encompassing the universe in time and space o). Where did you get these ideas from? That is irrational and illogical at best.To me, it is totally irrational from you Ganteel and CosmicDancer to accept punishment and accountability WE HUMANS place on other people (including our own selves) as justifiable , yet when it spoken from GOD, it ?? lies within the framework of asinine religious beliefs that has no grounds?
Spoken from which GOD? Who or what is this GOD? Where is your evidence that it was an imaginable GOD who spoke to Muhammad or was it an unimaginable angel visiting Muhammad in a cave all alone by himself without anyone knowing and gullibles believed in him or did Muhammad actually swooshed off to visit God in secrecy up in heavens? Where do you draw the line? -
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2074, please say what state someone is if they are neither alive, nor dead.
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There is physical proof that a place resembling hell exists, in fact, the universe is littered with these Hells. Go outside at night and you can see millions and millions and milllions of hells. There is zero evidence of anything after death, in any case.
Personally, I see this thread, like someone already stated, as an attempt to justify disbelief in God, and nothing more. How does the existance/non-existance of hell affect your ability to do good works? It doesn't.
- What?
- Yes, there's physical proof that something resembling the literal interpretation of the description of hell exists. But even then, you can't put a body inside the sun and torture it for a second let alone an eternity. So you can't argue this from a scientific perspective.
Yes, there's zero evidence. So we can't really know what will happen. All we have are guesses.
If this thread is an attempt to justify disbelief in God, it is a pretty good one.
If you are going to argue that god is just and merciful, you can't possibly believe that there is an eternal hell where the loving and just and merciful god will torture you in creative ways for eternity.
The existence of hell SHOULDN'T affect our ability to do good works...but it seems that the only reason the idea exists is because it does affect people.
peace -
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If you are going to argue that god is just and merciful, you can't possibly believe that there is an eternal hell where the loving and just and merciful god will torture you in creative ways for eternity.
You're still asking this tired question? I thought I answered it pages ago?peace
I think that if god is merciful, god cannot put anyone in hell for eternity (taking eternity to mean "forever". That is an obvious contradiction.God is Merciful. He only puts us where we ask to go. No contradiction there. Now eternity or forever, I don't know about that.
Peace
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I can't remember how many times I have asked a question and just got another question in reply - usually asking me to define something.
The funny thing is that you are only interested in my answer so you can tell me it is wrong.
So let us cut to the chase.Let's assume I don't know what it means - please go ahead and tell me what Kafir means.
And explain to me how that makes torturing them any better?
So you also noticed this modus operandi.
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peace Zenje,
You are saying that God is merciful, yet he puts people in hell for eternity? Do you think it is for eternity or just a little while? If it is for eternity, then there is an obvious contradiction in what you're saying.
For god to be merciful, god must show mercy, which means god must forgive or pardon the sins of the offenders, or at least reduce their punishment.
Putting them in hell (especially for eternity) is not compassionate or merciful.
It may be fair and just or whatever, but it can't be merciful. -
For god to be merciful, god must show mercy, which means god must forgive or pardon the sins of the offenders, or at least reduce their punishment.
What do you think God's doing right now? Forgiving, pardoning, giving more chances than you can count. We have the ability not only to 'reduce our sentences', but to eliminate them altogether.
Peace
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The Quran uses different words for heaven and hell to describe their longevity, correct? As in "jannati adneen" vs "al-khuldi". Does it do this throughout?
Oh, anyway, http//19.org/index.php?id=14,176,0,0,1,0