To Obey the Prophet(PBUH) is obligatory to every Muslim
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Salaam Zidane,
God did not cut his lifeline because the prophet did not lie upon God. Not because the prophet did not say anything outside Qur'an or act anything outside Qur'an as in pray in public and do Sawm and Zakat. All fall in the definition of hadeeth. If you believe that the prophet was mum unless he received Qur'an, then you must believe in an unbelievable thing.
Salaam and have a good evening.
Hussein
Dear Brother Hussein, you probably missed my point.
That part of my post was to say that the Messenger and prophet is not the same "state" of Muhammad, that's why God didn't cut his life-line.
That's why, if the prophet and the messenger was the same then, as you said, he can't speak unless he receives the quran. That's believing in an unbelievable thing.
The Messenger is when he's delivering the Message, that's why God said "O you prophet" (yes, you can check the arabic) here in 661, not "O you Messenger". This clearly distinguishes the difference between prophet and messenger. This comes into harmony why God repeated many times to Obey God and Obey the Messenger Obeying God and obeying the Messenger is the same thing . We can only know what God says from the Messenger and the Messenger can only speak what God says (, ).
These issues are already covered many times in the many resources & articles of this site. Please read them, it's tiring for people to come and post replies to the same issues again and again. Please help take some effort in reading them brother.
And, Yes, as Joe posted above, that's very clear to "sincerely" see. We can't just twist things biasdly to support the use of hadeeth. You're again implying to the reader that the Quran is NOT complete, NOT fully detailed and we must use other hadeeth than the Quran (see 7185).
Have a nice evening too.
May God Guide.
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Peace dear brother Leoxyz, please excuse me - I have NO offence to you. I really respect your efforts and care for us, like many friends. relatives and people who love & care for us.
Those verses will be no surprise to the people here too, it depends on who do you interpret as "Muttaqin", "those", "their".
The people here also want to warn you that
(You can see the references all over this site and forum.)
Messenger's duty is only to deliver the message, the Quran is complete fully-detailed, what the Quran says about the "hadith", the messenger and the prophet is not the same (otherwise 661 would conflict with 6940-46, why didn't God cut his "life-line", then?), etc.Are we going to say these verses are not true or half truth?
You may want to post other verses then to conflict with the verses that relate to these issues, so the Quran HAS many contradictions?
From my observation, many hadith-defenders come here to prove
- The Quran is NOT complete/enough/fully-detailed. (Contradicts to verses in the "(1)" part of http//www.free-minds.org/women/scarf.htm)
- The Messenger's duty is NOT only to clearly deliver the message. (Contradicts with 592 ,681-82, 2918, 6412, 2454)
- You MUST believe/use other hadith than the Quran. (Contradicts with 7750, 7185, 316, 456, 3923, 5234, 6844)
- You can't find "this and that" in the Quran, but you can find it in the Hadith books. (Yes, 6837-39)
"Do they not consider the Koran with care. If it had been from anyone other than God, it would contain many (Kathirun) contradictions (Ikhtelaafun-)." Koran 482 (http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/koran.htm)
The current traditional understandings of "islam" is so contradicting that you see many anti-islam sites making long lists of Quranic contradictions. For example, http//www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/
After sincere research, and verification, many here see that this Message (Quran) is from God but the contradictions are rather from the humans' understanding of it.
Yes, surely people here also don't agree on all things the same way, we're humans also, but it is much less than adding a huge list of contradictions from the traditional uderstandings and hadith books. By the way, there are many people who clearly understand the answers to favorite questions like salat,qibla,hajj,zakat, etc. in a no-contradiction "Quran is complete, fully detailed" way.
Let's ask God to guide & do out best.
Please consider the "warning" from us here too, we care for you, otherwise many here wouldn't have spent their time, money and effort to start a site and put so much content in it. Thanks also for your compassion, care, time & effort. I'm not posting here to debate you. I'm just posting to give my compassion and care also. Thanks.
God please guide & fogive all of us. We're trying our best to please/praise you - our Lord.
May God Guide.
Dear
I have shown my opinion and still hold that anyone who denies ,rejects a single word or teaching of the Holy Quran is not a muslim.He is a KAAFIR.
As far as interpretaion is concerned the Holy Quran is MUFASSIL and COMPLETE and well EXPLAINED,so NO INTERPRETATION is needed.(AS PER QURANIST CLAIM)
I am a simple muslim with a limited knowledge.You can think it your way.
People are at liberty to
-Tamper Quran
-Tamper the teachings of Holy Prophet PUBH
-Make prophets(Kazzaab) after the Holy Prophet (PBUH)
The Holy Quran says(2256) There is no compulsion and coercion in regard to religion. The right thing has been made distinct from the wrong thing
Everything is crystle clear.
None of us is going to be held responsible for others' deeds.Neither you for my actions ,nor I for your actions.
Have I compelled anyone to follow my ways? Never -
Peace Hussein,
In verse 661, the prophet ignorantly prohibited something that the god had already made lawful (via the messenger). If the role of prophet is the same as the role of messenger as you contend, then we are left with Muhammad (messenger/prophet) contradicting "God's revelations" and attributting something falsely to the god and his revelations(prohibiting something that the god had made lawful), which inturn, leaves us with the god contradicting His quran, particularly verses 6940-46.
Of course, this problem is easily resolved when one comes to understand that the Messenger delivers the god's message, and the prophet is the god's appointed leader upholding the god's revelations to the best of his human ability.
Or in other words, the prophet obeys the god and obeys the messenger (message), as stated in verse 469.
Hussein, what lesson can we learn if someone directly saw or heard the prophet prohibit the cancellation of oaths and passed this "hadith" down to their family, who inturn passed it down to their family etc...all the while not knowing the prophet had made a mistake?
Peace
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Salaam all,
I am sorry to tell you both that when Muhammad has the designation of prophet and messenger, then he cannot be divided by two and say this time he is this and this time he is that. At all times he is both. If God addressed him as a messenger at some point, that does not mean that he was not a prophet at the same time or that God was not addressing Muhammad the prophet as well as the messenger. The address as messenger or prophet at different times is more for particular emphasis but not to divide him into a split personality as you like to believe.
If you are a father and husband, you are always father and husband. So, God will not say to Muhammad the messenger you cannot lie, but then will allow Muhammad the prophet to do it.
Muhammad, the prophet and man and messenger can make mistakes. He does not make mistakes in the delivery nor the explanation of the message nor in the orders of it, but can make mistakes as human being in a fashion that does not affect his message or the delivery of it or the explanation of it except in a positive fashion. Why? because all of his mistakes in the Qur'an are lessons for us. However, any mistake he made, he remained the most trustworthy as man and messenger and prophet for all of us to follow him. God did not take the messengership or prophethood from him. God asked us to obey the messenger unconditionally knowing that the messenger is Muhammad who is also the prophet and the man.
In addition. You have zero proof that the Qur'an divides clearly muhammad the messenger from the pophet. If you do bring them and do not bring articles because I read them and they are not convincing.
Also 661 does not say how the thing or what the thing that was made unlawful. Tell me what it was and why? and when and how the messenger made it lawful? Also show evidence that the messenger actually made it lawful. What will your sources be? If you have no sources then you have no case.
As far as the Qur'an complete or incomplete. I addressed it in my post about 24 hours ago.
Take care and have a good evening.
Hussein
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Peace Hussein,
In verse 661, the prophet ignorantly prohibited something that the god had already made lawful (via the messenger). If the role of prophet is the same as the role of messenger as you contend, then we are left with Muhammad (messenger/prophet) contradicting "God's revelations" and attributting something falsely to the god and his revelations(prohibiting something that the god had made lawful), which inturn, leaves us with the god contradicting His quran, particularly verses 6940-46.
Dear
It is how you people tamper the meanings of the Holy Quran.You people intentionally do not post Arabic text so that you can put the translation of your interest
The actual aya is661
This aya clearly shows that the Holy Prophet forbade something for HIMSELF because of seeking good will of wives.But Allah immediately warned him not to do it.
A few questions arise automatically
The Holy Prophet did not forbade or made unlawful anything for anyone else but for HIMSELF only
Are human beings not given the discretionary power to eat or restrict themselves from something? Why was the Holy Prophet not allowed to make a personal decision ? The reason is simple ,the Holy Quran tells us3321
Prophets are Examples for the followers.Though it was his personal decision but Allah rectified because all of his followers are supposed to follow him ,so it would have very long lasting effect. -
Peace Hussein,
When thinking of roles to compare with the Messenger and Prophet, try to think of roles more analogous with the Messenger and Prophet.
How about...Mike, the messnger of the King, and Mike a subject/citizen of the king.
Now ask yourself
Is Mike being a subject/citizen of the king, obliged to obey the messages he transmits to the citizens for the king?
Thus does mike the citizen/subject obey the king and the messenger?
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Greetings again brother,
Salaam all,
I am sorry to tell you both that when Muhammad has the designation of prophet and messenger, then he cannot be divided by two and say this time he is this and this time he is that. At all times he is both. If God addressed him as a messenger at some point, that does not mean that he was not a prophet at the same time or that God was not addressing Muhammad the prophet as well as the messenger. The address as messenger or prophet at different times is more for particular emphasis but not to divide him into a split personality as you like to believe.
God divided, not me, different word at different places. There's a reason for having different words different meaning.
If you are a father and husband, you are always father and husband. So, God will not say to Muhammad the messenger you cannot lie, but then will allow Muhammad the prophet to do it.
God didn't allow the prophet to do lie - that's why he warns with this verse. As a man/prophet, he can make mistakes. BUT he didn't do a mistake when speaking the message as a messenger. Otherwise his life-line would be cut.
When he's the messenger he's speaking out the message perfectly - the Quran is the "Qawl Rasool".Muhammad, the prophet and man and messenger can make mistakes. He does not make mistakes in the delivery nor the explanation of the message nor in the orders of it, but can make mistakes as human being in a fashion that does not affect his message or the delivery of it or the explanation of it except in a positive fashion. Why? because all of his mistakes in the Qur'an are lessons for us. However, any mistake he made, he remained the most trustworthy as man and messenger and prophet for all of us to follow him. God did not take the messengership or prophethood from him. God asked us to obey the messenger unconditionally knowing that the messenger is Muhammad who is also the prophet and the man.
No, if the messenger made a mistake, his life-line would be cut.
In addition. You have zero proof that the Qur'an divides clearly muhammad the messenger from the pophet. If you do bring them and do not bring articles because I read them and they are not convincing.
No, not zero proof. Lot's of proof, you can go back and see my previous post on page 3 of this thread again. No offence brother, but I can't guide you, and you can't guide me. I can't convince you, the articles can't either.
Also 661 does not say how the thing or what the thing that was made unlawful. Tell me what it was and why? and when and how the messenger made it lawful? Also show evidence that the messenger actually made it lawful. What will your sources be? If you have no sources then you have no case.
Yes, it doesn't say, for a reason. If it's complete and it doesn't say so the things you want it to say, the what you want to know isn't necessary like the story of the cow in sura 2 - do we need to know what color is the cow, etc?
Doesn't God know what is needed?
Yes, I agree that you can find all these details you wish in other books that you study
(Sorry for reposting, you're re-asking.)6836 What is wrong with you, how do you judge?
6837 Or do you have another book which you study?
6838 In it, you can find what you wish?I really apologize if my words offended you or what you think. May God Guide & forgive.
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None of us is going to be held responsible for others' deeds.Neither you for my actions ,nor I for your actions.
Have I compelled anyone to follow my ways? NeverBrother Leoxyz, I totally agree with you on this. I really respect you for this great mentality.
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Note verse 662, the god has already given the Law(589) that the prophet himself prohibited, in other words, there is no reason for you a leader of your people to prohibit something that the god has made lawful..
And moreover, in verse 3321 there is no mention of the "prophet being an example", this has been pointed out to you many times, yet you insist, which can only lead me to conclude one thing, you my "friend" are a dishonest person.
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Peace "genteel",
JK- Yes your right there the "we" does not refer only to GOD but GOD and His messengerS. This means the Quran would be explained again and again by inspired people for every day and age. This is a better explanation indeed. Also the "we" clould refer to GOD and His forces of nature(malaaika) which help explain the Quran. GOD Bless!
ANOTHER PEARL
Again you have not quoted the verse as usual (tactics).
Actual aya is
7519
So here pronouns" " = we refers to
God and his messenger (according to you).
In fact this pronoun has been used in many verses only and only for Almighty Allah.
If we accept your explanation then in this ayawe have to accept that creation of Human beings from males and females is a COLLECTIVE EFFORT OF GOD AND MESSENGERS.Ma3aazallah
What a PEARL of interpretation !!1
Subhanallah/Mashallah -
Peace Leo,
I must say I've reached a new level of surprise with your behavior. For someone who is so adamant about telling other's they are tampering with the qur'an, how is it that you ignored the verses I posted which contradict your definition? Further, I pointed out that God clearly has a place for jews, christians, and sabeans, yet none accept the qur'an, thus they cannot be rejecters. And you retort with
As far as I know Quran has talked about three Groups
1Muslims
2Kaafirs
3MunafiqineIn which group you are going to put Jews ?
What group I put does not matter. They are not kafir's, nor is anyone else who does not accept the qur'an unless they state that they understand it is from God yet they go on in deceit.
I have shown my opinion and still hold that anyone who denies ,rejects a single word or teaching of the Holy Quran is not a muslim.He is a KAAFIR
Yes, your opinion, baseless and away from the very qur'an you're defending.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Leo,
I must say I've reached a new level of surprise with your behavior. For someone who is so adamant about telling other's they are tampering with the qur'an, how is it that you ignored the verses I posted which contradict your definition? Further, I pointed out that God clearly has a place for jews, christians, and sabeans, yet none accept the qur'an, thus they cannot be rejecters. And you retort with
What group I put does not matter. They are not kafir's, nor is anyone else who does not accept the qur'an unless they state that they understand it is from God yet they go on in deceit.
Yes, your opinion, baseless and away from the very qur'an you're defending.
Peace,
TayLocate their position according to Holy Quran which is
-Mufassal
-Clear
-Explained
Cannot you find the status of Jews in them ?'
reason ?????????????you said ;
Yes, your opinion, baseless and away from the very qur'an you're defending
If Quran rejector is not a "kafir " then what is his status?
Muslim ? or anything else ? -
Dear
I have shown my opinion and still hold that anyone who denies ,rejects a single word or teaching of the Holy Quran is not a muslim.He is a KAAFIR.
As far as interpretaion is concerned the Holy Quran is MUFASSIL and COMPLETE and well EXPLAINED,so NO INTERPRETATION is needed.(AS PER QURANIST CLAIM)
I am a simple muslim with a limited knowledge.You can think it your way.
People are at liberty to
-Tamper Quran
-Tamper the teachings of Holy Prophet PUBH
-Make prophets(Kazzaab) after the Holy Prophet (PBUH)
The Holy Quran says(2256) There is no compulsion and coercion in regard to religion. The right thing has been made distinct from the wrong thing
Everything is crystle clear.None of us is going to be held responsible for others' deeds.Neither you for my actions ,nor I for your actions.
Have I compelled anyone to follow my ways? Neverhttp//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_Holiness
931 They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah. there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).
621 Whatever is in the heavens and on earth, doth declare the Praises and Glory of Allah,- the Sovereign, the HOLY One, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.
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Salaam all,
I am sorry to tell you both that when Muhammad has the designation of prophet and messenger, then he cannot be divided by two and say this time he is this and this time he is that. At all times he is both.
Salaam haltif
In verse 651 " ... O prophet! When you (plural) divorce women, divorce them at their prescribed count..."
This is one of the few verses addressing the gendered male only. Since I, as female, not being included in this address, I will therefore not be able to obey. But God accommodated for that and did not say "O messenger", because somewhere else in the qur'aan the obedience to the messenger is obligatory and absolute. If you insist that prophet and messenger are one, then we have a contradiction here. Since God says we wont find contradiction in the quraan, then you are wrong in your understanding.
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Peace Samia,
Yes a CLEAR definition is given...
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/3/3_53.htm
353 "Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we FOLLOW THE MESSENGER. then write us down among those who bear witness."
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It's actually the first time I see the difference between Prophet and Messenger in this clear way. Very interesting! The concept has always been obvious, but the words are a bit more clear now.
A huge problem with some people seem to be that they think that EVERYTHING that the prophets did or said is part of the Message. Quite weird!
peace
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Salaam all,
Zidane, thanks for your polite responses. I have several points to make for you
1- No God did not divide the Messenger and Prophet. You and some people here did, and all you have are very obscure evidences. Bring one direct order from God that shows that Muhammad was divided into two roles that are somewhat separate. As a matter of fact, unless you were christian who believes in a trinity, no Muslim ever claimed this business. When God addresses us using the name Raheem= Merciful, He uses that name because it suits the context, but God remains with all his attributes all the time, even when He uses that particular name. When God addresses Muhammad as messenger, then he is still man and prophet. Addressing him as messenger relates to the context of the statements but not to the division of Muhammad as a split personality.
2- Your evidence is based on mainly two Ayat. All the other Ayat that you placed in page 3 do not help you. Here is the first Aya
Picktal
661 O Prophet! Why bannest thou that which Allah hath made lawful for thee, seeking to please thy wives? And Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
There are two points against youA) There is no mention of messenger or that the one who made lawful was the messenger. The context of the Aya shows a direct communication with no intermediary. In any case, filling the blanks with messenger is inappropriate and is conjecture based.
B) The Aya does not tell us what was lawful that the prophet made unlawful to himself. You then cannot claim that it was made lawful in the Qur'an itself since you do not know what it was. So, claiming something came from the Qur'an without knowing it, is again not supported by the text.
3- The issue that you keep on bringing that God will kill the messenger if he said anything but not the prophet. You bring this passage
6944 And if he had invented false sayings concerning Us,
6945 We assuredly had taken him by the right hand
6946 And then severed his life artery,
So, the condition to sever his life artery is attributing sayings to God when they are not. t does not point to hadeeth that were said by the messenger but not attributed to God. If you want to insist that God allows the prophet to say false sayings, then that would be something new. No one in their right mind will claim that the Prophet Muhammad will be allowed to say things and attribute them to God falsely but not the messenger Muhammad.
Z Here is a passage for you and others that proves that Messengers can actually make mistakes and sin, contrary to your claims
37139 And lo! Jonah verily was of the messengers
37140 When he fled unto the laden ship,
37141 And then drew lots and was of those rejected;
37142 And the fish swallowed him while be was blameworthy;
Here is a messenger sinning in his role/state as messenger not as prophet or man. What do you say about that?!
Samia,
Salaam haltif
In verse 651 " ... O prophet! When you (plural) divorce women, divorce them at their prescribed count..."
This is one of the few verses addressing the gendered male only. Since I, as female, not being included in this address, I will therefore not be able to obey. But God accommodated for that and did not say "O messenger", because somewhere else in the qur'aan the obedience to the messenger is obligatory and absolute. If you insist that prophet and messenger are one, then we have a contradiction here. Since God says we wont find contradiction in the quraan, then you are wrong in your understanding.
totally wrong. The obedience is determined by the context of the verse and the context determines who is addressed and who is not. Who is covered by the order and who is not. It is not Prophet vs messenger. Here is an order from the messenger that is totally limited to time, place and group of people, not even gender
3153 When ye climbed (the hill) and paid no heed to anyone, while the messenger, in your rear, was calling you (to fight). Therefore He rewarded you grief for (his) grief, that (He might teach) you not to sorrow either for that which ye missed or for that which befell you. Allah is Informed of what ye do.
So, they did not obey the messenger in that order that was limited in time and place and group obligated to follow. If you are truthful, then you will need to go ahead and climb somewhere "because the order of the messenger is absolute" according to your theory.Take care all and have a great day.
Hussein
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Salaam Hussein
Long time ago I read a quote by a person whose name I can not recall said ?information is giving out communication is getting through?
I think giving out is Qawl communicate is Kalam. To speak/say which is one way is qawl but communicate and converse is Kalam. Communication is a loaded word with connotations of impart, share, transmit, transfer, exchange. When we read the verses in which Kalam is used in the Quran we can see similar meanings.
There are many verses such as 339, 364, 446, 4164, 840, 974, 185, 18109, 23100, 3127, 4145, 7143, 1254, 2118, 341, 4251 etc which bring out this subtle but important difference between the 2 words. Also some of these verses have both Qawl and Kalam in them highlighting the difference in the meanings of these 2 words.
For example see the following verses
19 26
Yusuf Ali "So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man say `I have vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious and this day will I enter into no talk with any human being.' "
Transliteration Fakuli was rabi wa qar ri aina_ fa im ma_ tarayin na minal basyari ahadan faqu_li in ni nadzartu lir rahma_ni shauman falan ukal limal yauma insiy ya_
In the above verse if the fast is about speak/saying to others the messenger Job can not say when he meets someone ?I have vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious and this day will I enter into no talk with any human being. " . Because if he says that he would break the fast. What he is prohibited from doing is kalam/ukallimal which is ?converse? with any man.
19 29
Yusuf Ali But she pointed to the babe. They said "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"
Transliteration Fa asa_rat ilaihi qa_lu_ kaifa nukal limu man ka_na fil mahdi shabiy ya_
The people did not say they can not speak to the child. Sure they can speak but they do not expect the child to understand or reply. So what they are saying here is how can we converse or communicate with a child.
The above analysis of the meaning of these 2 words are purely as an academic interest and not in relation to any discussion or debate. Also I have not gone through every use of Qawl in the Quran so my ananlysis is not complete.
I would appreciate your comment.
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Here is a messenger sinning in his role/state as messenger not as prophet or man. What do you say about that?!
Z PEace Hussein,
First and foremost, Jonah the messenger didn't attribute something falsely to the god. Secondly, he was a messenger after his rejection.
Now, how about you let go of that silly "trinity analogy" and answer the following...
Re To Obey the Prophet(PBUH) is obligatory to every Muslim
? Reply #321 on Yesterday at 105417 PM ?
Peace Hussein,
When thinking of roles to compare with the Messenger and Prophet, try to think of roles more analogous with the Messenger and Prophet.
How about...Mike, the messnger of the King, and Mike a subject/citizen of the king.
Now ask yourself
Is Mike being a subject/citizen of the king, obliged to obey the messages he transmits to the citizens for the king?
Thus does mike the citizen/subject obey the king and the messenger?