To Obey the Prophet(PBUH) is obligatory to every Muslim
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Salaam all,
I am sorry to tell you both that when Muhammad has the designation of prophet and messenger, then he cannot be divided by two and say this time he is this and this time he is that. At all times he is both.
Salaam haltif
In verse 651 " ... O prophet! When you (plural) divorce women, divorce them at their prescribed count..."
This is one of the few verses addressing the gendered male only. Since I, as female, not being included in this address, I will therefore not be able to obey. But God accommodated for that and did not say "O messenger", because somewhere else in the qur'aan the obedience to the messenger is obligatory and absolute. If you insist that prophet and messenger are one, then we have a contradiction here. Since God says we wont find contradiction in the quraan, then you are wrong in your understanding.
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Peace Samia,
Yes a CLEAR definition is given...
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/3/3_53.htm
353 "Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we FOLLOW THE MESSENGER. then write us down among those who bear witness."
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It's actually the first time I see the difference between Prophet and Messenger in this clear way. Very interesting! The concept has always been obvious, but the words are a bit more clear now.
A huge problem with some people seem to be that they think that EVERYTHING that the prophets did or said is part of the Message. Quite weird!
peace
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Salaam all,
Zidane, thanks for your polite responses. I have several points to make for you
1- No God did not divide the Messenger and Prophet. You and some people here did, and all you have are very obscure evidences. Bring one direct order from God that shows that Muhammad was divided into two roles that are somewhat separate. As a matter of fact, unless you were christian who believes in a trinity, no Muslim ever claimed this business. When God addresses us using the name Raheem= Merciful, He uses that name because it suits the context, but God remains with all his attributes all the time, even when He uses that particular name. When God addresses Muhammad as messenger, then he is still man and prophet. Addressing him as messenger relates to the context of the statements but not to the division of Muhammad as a split personality.
2- Your evidence is based on mainly two Ayat. All the other Ayat that you placed in page 3 do not help you. Here is the first Aya
Picktal
661 O Prophet! Why bannest thou that which Allah hath made lawful for thee, seeking to please thy wives? And Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
There are two points against youA) There is no mention of messenger or that the one who made lawful was the messenger. The context of the Aya shows a direct communication with no intermediary. In any case, filling the blanks with messenger is inappropriate and is conjecture based.
B) The Aya does not tell us what was lawful that the prophet made unlawful to himself. You then cannot claim that it was made lawful in the Qur'an itself since you do not know what it was. So, claiming something came from the Qur'an without knowing it, is again not supported by the text.
3- The issue that you keep on bringing that God will kill the messenger if he said anything but not the prophet. You bring this passage
6944 And if he had invented false sayings concerning Us,
6945 We assuredly had taken him by the right hand
6946 And then severed his life artery,
So, the condition to sever his life artery is attributing sayings to God when they are not. t does not point to hadeeth that were said by the messenger but not attributed to God. If you want to insist that God allows the prophet to say false sayings, then that would be something new. No one in their right mind will claim that the Prophet Muhammad will be allowed to say things and attribute them to God falsely but not the messenger Muhammad.
Z Here is a passage for you and others that proves that Messengers can actually make mistakes and sin, contrary to your claims
37139 And lo! Jonah verily was of the messengers
37140 When he fled unto the laden ship,
37141 And then drew lots and was of those rejected;
37142 And the fish swallowed him while be was blameworthy;
Here is a messenger sinning in his role/state as messenger not as prophet or man. What do you say about that?!
Samia,
Salaam haltif
In verse 651 " ... O prophet! When you (plural) divorce women, divorce them at their prescribed count..."
This is one of the few verses addressing the gendered male only. Since I, as female, not being included in this address, I will therefore not be able to obey. But God accommodated for that and did not say "O messenger", because somewhere else in the qur'aan the obedience to the messenger is obligatory and absolute. If you insist that prophet and messenger are one, then we have a contradiction here. Since God says we wont find contradiction in the quraan, then you are wrong in your understanding.
totally wrong. The obedience is determined by the context of the verse and the context determines who is addressed and who is not. Who is covered by the order and who is not. It is not Prophet vs messenger. Here is an order from the messenger that is totally limited to time, place and group of people, not even gender
3153 When ye climbed (the hill) and paid no heed to anyone, while the messenger, in your rear, was calling you (to fight). Therefore He rewarded you grief for (his) grief, that (He might teach) you not to sorrow either for that which ye missed or for that which befell you. Allah is Informed of what ye do.
So, they did not obey the messenger in that order that was limited in time and place and group obligated to follow. If you are truthful, then you will need to go ahead and climb somewhere "because the order of the messenger is absolute" according to your theory.Take care all and have a great day.
Hussein
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Salaam Hussein
Long time ago I read a quote by a person whose name I can not recall said ?information is giving out communication is getting through?
I think giving out is Qawl communicate is Kalam. To speak/say which is one way is qawl but communicate and converse is Kalam. Communication is a loaded word with connotations of impart, share, transmit, transfer, exchange. When we read the verses in which Kalam is used in the Quran we can see similar meanings.
There are many verses such as 339, 364, 446, 4164, 840, 974, 185, 18109, 23100, 3127, 4145, 7143, 1254, 2118, 341, 4251 etc which bring out this subtle but important difference between the 2 words. Also some of these verses have both Qawl and Kalam in them highlighting the difference in the meanings of these 2 words.
For example see the following verses
19 26
Yusuf Ali "So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man say `I have vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious and this day will I enter into no talk with any human being.' "
Transliteration Fakuli was rabi wa qar ri aina_ fa im ma_ tarayin na minal basyari ahadan faqu_li in ni nadzartu lir rahma_ni shauman falan ukal limal yauma insiy ya_
In the above verse if the fast is about speak/saying to others the messenger Job can not say when he meets someone ?I have vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious and this day will I enter into no talk with any human being. " . Because if he says that he would break the fast. What he is prohibited from doing is kalam/ukallimal which is ?converse? with any man.
19 29
Yusuf Ali But she pointed to the babe. They said "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"
Transliteration Fa asa_rat ilaihi qa_lu_ kaifa nukal limu man ka_na fil mahdi shabiy ya_
The people did not say they can not speak to the child. Sure they can speak but they do not expect the child to understand or reply. So what they are saying here is how can we converse or communicate with a child.
The above analysis of the meaning of these 2 words are purely as an academic interest and not in relation to any discussion or debate. Also I have not gone through every use of Qawl in the Quran so my ananlysis is not complete.
I would appreciate your comment.
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Here is a messenger sinning in his role/state as messenger not as prophet or man. What do you say about that?!
Z PEace Hussein,
First and foremost, Jonah the messenger didn't attribute something falsely to the god. Secondly, he was a messenger after his rejection.
Now, how about you let go of that silly "trinity analogy" and answer the following...
Re To Obey the Prophet(PBUH) is obligatory to every Muslim
? Reply #321 on Yesterday at 105417 PM ?
Peace Hussein,
When thinking of roles to compare with the Messenger and Prophet, try to think of roles more analogous with the Messenger and Prophet.
How about...Mike, the messnger of the King, and Mike a subject/citizen of the king.
Now ask yourself
Is Mike being a subject/citizen of the king, obliged to obey the messages he transmits to the citizens for the king?
Thus does mike the citizen/subject obey the king and the messenger?
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Z PEace Hussein,
First and foremost, Jonah the messenger didn't attribute something falsely to the god. Secondly, he was a messenger after his rejection.
Now, how about you let go of that silly "trinity analogy" and answer the following...
Re To Obey the Prophet(PBUH) is obligatory to every Muslim
Reply #321 on Yesterday at 105417 PM
Peace Hussein,
Again, another logical error. Jonah being declared messenger has zero bearing on whether he is acting as a messenger when in error. Messenger is a role, not a person, and not a duty (as in, an office one can hold). Someone can be called a messenger, obviously, but that does not mean they are always in this position. If I call Bob a banker, then explain how he defrauded someone, does that mean he was defrauding someone while in the bank? For all we know, he could have simply stole sheep in Timbuktu.
There is no trinity analogy. A person can wake up, eat, sleep, and go to the toilet as a policeman. That does NOT mean that while they are doing those acts, they are policing. Very important distinction to be made. Likewise, when Jonah erred, it does not mean he was acting in his capacity as a messenger.
The linking of rasool to nabi is riddled with logical errors of all sorts.
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Peace,
Here is a passage for you and others that proves that Messengers can actually make mistakes and sin, contrary to your claims
37139 And lo! Jonah verily was of the messengers
Here is a messenger sinning in his role/state as messenger not as prophet or man. What do you say about that?!
Jonah!
1- No God did not divide the Messenger and Prophet. You and some people here did, and all you have are very obscure evidences. Bring one direct order from God that shows that Muhammad was divided into two roles that are somewhat separate. As a matter of fact, unless you were christian who believes in a trinity, no Muslim ever claimed this business.
So, claiming something came from the Qur'an without knowing it, is again not supported by the text.
So, the condition to sever his life artery is attributing sayings to God when they are not. t does not point to hadeeth that were said by the messenger but not attributed to God. If you want to insist that God allows the prophet to say false sayings, then that would be something new. No one in their right mind will claim that the Prophet Muhammad will be allowed to say things and attribute them to God falsely but not the messenger Muhammad.
Really -- what do you call this 2nd Qur?an attributed to God?
Hadith Qudsi 28
On the authority of Jundub ibn Abdullah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said
There was amongst those before you a man who had a wound. He was in anguish that he took a knife and made with it a cut in his hand, and the blood did not cease to flow till he died. Allah the Almighty said My servant has himself forestalled Me; I have forbidden him Paradise.
It was related by al-Bukhari.Really ? God was forestalled?
Hadith Qudsi 33
On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (PBUH), from among the things he reports from his Lord (mighty and sublime be He), is that he said
A servant committed a sin and said O Allah, forgive me my sin. And He (glorified and exalted be He) said My servant has committed a sin and has known that he has a Lord who forgives sins and punishes for them. Then he sinned again and said O Lord, forgive me my sin. And He (glorified and exalted be He) said My servant has committed a sin and has known that he has a Lord who forgives sins and punishes for them. Then he sinned again and said O Lord, forgive me my sin. And He (glorified and exalted be He) said My servant has committed a sin and has known that he has a Lord who forgives sins and punishes for sins. Do what you wish, for I have forgiven you.
It was related by Muslim (also by al-Bukhari).Really ? do what you wish?
Hadith Qudsi 35
On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said
Our Lord (glorified and exalted be He) descends each night to the earth's sky when there remains the final third of the night, and He says Who is saying a prayer to Me that I may answer it? Who is asking something of Me that I may give it him? Who is asking forgiveness of Me that I may forgive him?Really ? what about the other side of world or is night perpetual across the globe?
Hadith Qudsi 36
On the authority of Anas (may Allah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (PBUH), who said
The believers will gather together on the Day of Resurrection and will say Should we not ask to intercede for us with our Lord? So they will come to Adam and will say You are the Father of mankind; Allah created you with His hand He made His angels bow down to you and He taught you the names of everything, so intercede for us with you Lord so that He may give us relief form this place where we are. And he will say I am not in a position - and he will mention his wrongdoing and will feel ashamed and will say Go to Noah, for he is the first messenger that Allah sent to the inhabitants of the earth. So they will come to him and he will say I am not in a position - and he will mention his having requested something of his Lord about which he had no knowledge (Quran Chapter 11 Verses 45-46), and he will feel ashamed and will say Go to the Friend of the Merciful (Abraham). So they will come to him and he will say I am not in a position . Go to Moses, a servant to whom Allah talked and to whom He gave the Torah. So they will come to him and he will say I am not in a position - and he will mention the talking of a life other that for a life (Quran Chapter 28 Verses 15-16), and he will fell ashamed in the sight of his Lord and will say Go to Jesus, Allah's servant and messenger, Allah's word and spirit. So they will come to him and he will say I am not in a position . Go to Muhammad (may the blessings and peace of Allah be upon him), a servant to whom Allah has forgiven all his wrongdoing, past and future. So they will come to me and I shall set forth to ask permission to come to my Lord, and permission will be given, and when I shall see my Lord I shall prostrate myself. He will leave me thus for such time as it pleases Him, and then it will be said Raise your head. Ask and it will be granted. Speak and it will be heard. Intercede and your intercession will be accepted. So I shall raise my head and praise Him with a form of praise that He will teach me. Then I shall intercede and HE will set me a limit , so I shall admit them into Paradise. Then I shall return to Him, and when I shall see my Lord as before. Then I shall intercede and He will set me a limit . So I shall admit them into Paradise. Then I shall return for a third time, then a fourth, and I shall say There remains in Hell-fire only those whom the Quran has confined and who must be there for eternity. There shall come out of Hell-fire he who has said There is no god but Allah and who has in his heart goodness weighing a barley-corn; then there shall come out of Hell-fire he who has said There is no god but Allah and who has in his heart goodness weighing a grain of wheat; then there shall come out of Hell-fire he who has said There is no god but Allah and who has in his heart goodness weighing an atom.
It was related by al-Bukhari (also by Muslim, at-Tirmidhi, and Ibn Majah).Really ? intercession? Who believes in Trinity and all that stuff?
Take care; perhaps ponder the above and have a great day.
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3153 When ye climbed (the hill) and paid no heed to anyone, while the messenger, in your rear, was calling you (to fight). Therefore He rewarded you grief for (his) grief, that (He might teach) you not to sorrow either for that which ye missed or for that which befell you. Allah is Informed of what ye do.
So, they did not obey the messenger in that order that was limited in time and place and group obligated to follow. If you are truthful, then you will need to go ahead and climb somewhere "because the order of the messenger is absolute" according to your theory.If you were to read the preceding verse, you would indeed know that they did disobey the messenger(message).
3152 And God has fulfilled His promise to you, that you would overwhelm them by His leave; but then you failed and disputed in the matter and disobeyed after He showed you(via the messenger) what you had sought. Some of you want this world, and some of you want the Hereafter. Then He let you retreat from them that He may test you; and He has pardoned you. God is with great favor over the believers.
Now Hussein, read verse 3153 without the words in parantheses
3153 For you were climbing to the high ground and would not even glance towards anyone, and the messenger was calling to you from behind. Therefore He gave you worry to replace your worry, so that you would not have sadness by what has passed you, or for what afflicted you, and God is Expert over what you do.
3153 elaborates on verse 152, basically some in their zeal wanted this world and forgot about the "message" hence the reason the messenger was calling them from the rear, in other words, "hey you guys, did you forget about me".
BTW, the quran is amazing.
Peace
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Salaam all,
All I have to say is wow.
1- Jonah was mentioned as messenger in that same passage and he failed as a messenger and in the role of the messenger. The man ran away from his mission. Jonah was a messenger when he failed as the passage indicated. Now, it is limited to lying on God. I would say that no you are backtracking into "the messenger can err but should not lie". Interesting.
2- Roles. If God gave a person a role as a messenger, then it is his role all the time. If that same person has the role of prophethood then his role is both all the time. God is always creator and always controllor of all. He does not change from role to another.
3- Hadeeth Qudsi is speech in the words of the prophet related to God. Very much as the Qur'an speaks God's related to Moses and whoever, even Satan.
4- Intercession. There is nothing in the Qur'an that says that no one will intercede. The Qur'an always makes it conditional. That is all.
5- As for 3153, you changed hill to high ground. Then you forgot to remember that it was all in the past tense. It is not talking for all time as you are trying to make it. The order of the messenger that was disobeyed happened in the past. The order is not valid anymore. 3152 confirms that it was something limited in the past. Something that happened and is gone. The order of the messenger then was not absolute nor obligatory to all, just those who were addressed by it at that time and place.
Warner,
19 26
Yusuf Ali "So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man say `I have vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious and this day will I enter into no talk with any human being.' "
Transliteration Fakuli was rabi wa qar ri aina_ fa im ma_ tarayin na minal basyari ahadan faqu_li in ni nadzartu lir rahma_ni shauman falan ukal limal yauma insiy ya_
In the above verse if the fast is about speak/saying to others the messenger Job can not say when he meets someone ?I have vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious and this day will I enter into no talk with any human being. " . Because if he says that he would break the fast. What he is prohibited from doing is kalam/ukallimal which is ?converse? with any man.
I would disagree. This is Mary and not Job. This Aya explains the difference between the two. The order is QOOLI= say (but not necessarily in words). So, QWL is communicate or say in spoken words or otherwise. And then she says lan ukallima= I will never speak words. So, KLM can be communication but only in spoken words. QWL means that you can communicate without speaking, while KLM is only spoken words form of communication.
19 29
Yusuf Ali But she pointed to the babe. They said "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"
Transliteration Fa asa_rat ilaihi qa_lu_ kaifa nukal limu man ka_na fil mahdi shabiy ya_
The people did not say they can not speak to the child. Sure they can speak but they do not expect the child to understand or reply. So what they are saying here is how can we converse or communicate with a child.
Again, they are talking about spoken words. Why? because they communicate with the baby but without words. Everyone does from very early, but they cannot speak words to them and they do not expect him to speak back.
Take care all and have a great day.
Hussein
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1- Jonah was mentioned as messenger in that same passage and he failed as a messenger and in the role of the messenger. The man ran away from his mission. Jonah was a messenger when he failed as the passage indicated. Now, it is limited to lying on God. I would say that no you are backtracking into "the messenger can err but should not lie". Interesting.
Peace Hussein,
Your point is moot, he was a "messenger" when he delivered the god's message, and this happened after his rejection. Nowi If at that time, he had transmitted a message contrary to what he was ordered, then we can expect that his "lifeline" would be cut.
- Roles. If God gave a person a role as a messenger, then it is his role all the time. If that same person has the role of prophethood then his role is both all the time. God is always creator and always controllor of all. He does not change from role to another.
Z That makes absolutely no sense...
See "King and Messenger" analogy.
5- As for 3153, you changed hill to high ground. Then you forgot to remember that it was all in the past tense. It is not talking for all time as you are trying to make it. The order of the messenger that was disobeyed happened in the past. The order is not valid anymore. 3152 confirms that it was something limited in the past. Something that happened and is gone. The order of the messenger then was not absolute nor obligatory to all, just those who were addressed by it at that time and place.
Z There is no mention of "Hill" at all in the verse. Secondly, the verse is describing a situation which had occured with a particular group, specifically a group that had ignored the god/the messenger's(messages) promise of victory, both in this life and the afterlife. BEing such, the order still stands.
PEace
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Salaam all,
There is no trinity analogy. A person can wake up, eat, sleep, and go to the toilet as a policeman. That does NOT mean that while they are doing those acts, they are policing. Very important distinction to be made. Likewise, when Jonah erred, it does not mean he was acting in his capacity as a messenger.
Wrong analogy. The policeman has a job that is limited by time and place. The messenger's job is 24/7 and for life. There is no where in the Qur'an where God gives a vacation or releases the messenger from his job. The messenger is messaging all the time. Jonah left his job. He walked out on it. That is his error in his own capacity as messenger and a grave error at that.
Your point is moot, he was a "messenger" when he delivered the god's message, and this happened after his rejection. Nowi If at that time, he had transmitted a message contrary to what he was ordered, then we can expect that his "lifeline" would be cut.
Here are the words again
37139 And lo! Jonah verily was of the messengers37140 When he fled unto the laden ship,
37141 And then drew lots and was of those rejected;
37142 And the fish swallowed him while be was blameworthy;
The messenger Jonah ran away from his job while on his job. What other proof do you guys need that the man erred in his capacity as messenger of God?! Oh, I forgot, running away from the job is allowed because he did not say anything else about God. Nonsense.How about...Mike, the messnger of the King, and Mike a subject/citizen of the king.
Now ask yourself
Is Mike being a subject/citizen of the king, obliged to obey the messages he transmits to the citizens for the king?
Thus does mike the citizen/subject obey the king and the messenger?
Yes he does. This is how
1- Mike obeys the rules of the king.
2- Any rules that fall within "obey the messenger" but not necessarily "obey the king", then he will also abide by them as well as impose them on others. This is actually what the messenger Muhammad (pbuh) did exactly. He never imposed his rules on others. He imposed them on himself first.Z There is no mention of "Hill" at all in the verse. Secondly, the verse is describing a situation which had occured with a particular group, specifically a group that had ignored the god/the messenger's(messages) promise of victory, both in this life and the afterlife. BEing such, the order still stands.
You just proved Samia wrong. This is what she wrote before
because somewhere else in the qur'aan the obedience to the messenger is obligatory and absolute
this was her point that when an order is given by the prophet then it is not obligatory nor absolute, but when it is given by the messenger it has to be obligatory and absolute to all people and at all times. Here is a messenger giving order to a particular group limited by time and space. This alleged point of distinction between prophet and messenger as presented by Samia, is then false and incorrect.
Take care all.
Hussein
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Salaam all,
Samia,totally wrong. The obedience is determined by the context of the verse and the context determines who is addressed and who is not. Who is covered by the order and who is not. It is not Prophet vs messenger.
Salaam haltif
You're just going in circles. The context determines who is addressed and who is not based on the gender.. Can you say here that any female is addressed or any male is excluded?
Here is an order from the messenger that is totally limited to time, place and group of people, not even gender
3153 When ye climbed (the hill) and paid no heed to anyone, while the messenger, in your rear, was calling you (to fight). Therefore He rewarded you grief for (his) grief, that (He might teach) you not to sorrow either for that which ye missed or for that which befell you. Allah is Informed of what ye do.
This is the problem of limiting the quraan to "purpose/reason of revelation" and missing the main point/the message
If you are truthful, then you will need to go ahead and climb somewhere "because the order of the messenger is absolute" according to your theory.
No. This is what I will follow "not to sorrow either for that which ye missed or for that which befell you. Allah is Informed of what ye do."
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Dear brother Hussein,
Thanks for your polite responses too.
I came to reply quite late and many fellow forum members already answered it very well and with many points I didn't know, especially about Jonah - thanks for raising the verse. As for me, I would probably be only repeating if I replied again.
I now see the problem is that what is obvious to me isn't obvious to you, and what is obvious to you isn't obvious to me. I respect your right to see the same thing in a different way.
Take care & have a great day too.
May God Guide & Bless.
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Salaam Hussein
Take a look at this verse
3 41
Pickthall He said My Lord! Appoint a token for me. (The angel) said The token unto thee (shall be) that thou shalt not speak unto mankind three days except by signs. Remember thy Lord much, and praise (Him) in the early hours of night and morning.
Transliteration Qa_la rabbij'al li a_yah(tan), qa_la a_yatuka alla_ tukalliman na_sa sala_sata ayya_min illa_ ramza_(n), wazkur rabbaka kasiraw wa sabbih bil'asyiyyi wal ibka_r(i).
This clearly shows ?sign language? is a sub set of kalam/tukalliman. So Kalam does not have to be solely spoken word.
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3- Hadeeth Qudsi is speech in the words of the prophet related to God. Very much as the Qur'an speaks God's related to Moses and whoever, even Satan.
So this Hadith Qudsi crap that insults the god is "speech in the words of the prophet related to God. Very much as the Qur'an speaks God's related to Moses and whoever, even Satan." !!!!
But hey, no Sunni cares what it says, as long as Bukhari said it. Fortunately, no reasonable person can just dip a fly and eat this crap!
Peace,
Ayman
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Salaam all,
Hlatif
If you are truthful, then you will need to go ahead and climb somewhere "because the order of the messenger is absolute" according to your theory.Samia
No. This is what I will follow "not to sorrow either for that which ye missed or for that which befell you. Allah is Informed of what ye do."That would be partially obeying and partially obeying is rejecting the other part which included climbing upwards. Where is the absolute business that you claimed before? Also, the fact that the order clearly was limited to that particular time and group (without needing to know further) also removes your absolutely "obeying the messenger" myth, which you have invented to support the false prophet vs messenger business.
Warner, La tukallima annasa illa ramza does not have to mean sign language only. It can also mean speaking with your lips but not making sounds. It is still spoken words but without sound and the spoken words are then seen but not heard. This same phrase means that spoken words are supposed to be heard unless indicated as in this Aya.
Zidane thanks again for your kindness.
Take care all and have a good night.
Hussein
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Peace Hussein,
Here are the words again
37139 And lo! Jonah verily was of the messengers37140 When he fled unto the laden ship,
37141 And then drew lots and was of those rejected;
37142 And the fish swallowed him while be was blameworthy;
The messenger Jonah ran away from his job while on his job. What other proof do you guys need that the man erred in his capacity as messenger of God?! Oh, I forgot, running away from the job is allowed because he did not say anything else about God. Nonsense.Z You really can't be serious...In verse 37139, the god (via the messenger) is stating as a matter of FACTLY that Jonah was of the "messengers", then in verse 37140 the god (via the messenger) recaps the story of Jonah...
Jonah was a rejector who wa punished, then prayed to the god and asked for forgiveness and then became a "messenger" delivering god's words to the people of ninevah, thus is the story of how Jonah became of the messengers.
Yes he does. This is how
1- Mike obeys the rules of the king.
2- Any rules that fall within "obey the messenger" but not necessarily "obey the king", then he will also abide by them as well as impose them on others. This is actually what the messenger Muhammad (pbuh) did exactly. He never imposed his rules on others. He imposed them on himself first.Z Excuse me Hussein, but it seems you are becoming a bit desperate.. All rules that pertain to "obey the messenger" by default fall under "obey the king" since the position of Messenger is a position given to mike by the king for the sole purpose of delivering the king's message.
Please stick with the analogy. For it will clarify for you verse 469 and in particular how the Prophet Muhammad(citizen) obeyed the Messenger Muhammad. Best of all, we don't have to involve the silly analogy of the trinity.
You just proved Samia wrong. This is what she wrote before
because somewhere else in the qur'aan the obedience to the messenger is obligatory and absolute
this was her point that when an order is given by the prophet then it is not obligatory nor absolute, but when it is given by the messenger it has to be obligatory and absolute to all people and at all times. Here is a messenger giving order to a particular group limited by time and space. This alleged point of distinction between prophet and messenger as presented by Samia, is then false and incorrect.Z No where in verse 3153 is the messenger giving an order to a particular group. The order was already given in the god's book, that order being that god will grant victory to the believers, and as such some will grow haughty and leave the messenger behind calling from the rear reminding them of this previos order.
Once you remove the hadithic filter from you eyes hussein the verses will(or might) become "self-evident". But as of now, you only see "hills".
Peace
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Z Excuse me Hussein, but it seems you are becoming a bit desperate.. All rules that pertain to "obey the messenger" by default fall under "obey the king" since the position of Messenger is a position given to mike by the king for the sole purpose of delivering the king's message.
Dear
Holy prophet's obedience is not that of a King rather it is obedience of "Rasool".Allah has never said "Obey Muhammad" rather "Obey the Rasool".Can you prove that Allah appointed the prophet PBUH as a "King?
Allah also decreed that in the "Rasool" there is EXAMPLE " for you.
3321
21. Indeed in the Messenger of All?h (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) All?h and the Last Day and remembers All?h much. -
Dear
Holy prophet's obedience is not that of a King rather it is obedience of "Rasool".Allah has never said "Obey Muhammad" rather "Obey the Rasool".Can you prove that Allah appointed the prophet PBUH as a "King?
Allah also decreed that in the "Rasool" there is EXAMPLE " for you.
3321
21. Indeed in the Messenger of All?h (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) All?h and the Last Day and remembers All?h much.Right! The above verse utterly shatters this argument...
The messenger Jonah ran away from his job while on his job. What other proof do you guys need that the man erred in his capacity as messenger of God?! Oh, I forgot, running away from the job is allowed because he did not say anything else about God. Nonsense.
In addition, The Messenger can never be accused of doing this bad example...
Surah 80. He Frowned!
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(The Prophet) frowned and turned away,
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Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).
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But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow (in spiritual understanding)?-
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Or that he might receive admonition, and the teaching might profit him?
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As to one who regards Himself as self-sufficient,
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To him dost thou attend;
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Though it is no blame to thee if he grow not (in spiritual understanding).
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But as to him who came to thee striving earnestly,
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And with fear (in his heart),
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Of him wast thou unmindful.
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By no means (should it be so)! For it is indeed a Message of instruction
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Therefore let whoso will, keep it in remembrance.
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(It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour,
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Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy,
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(Written) by the hands of scribes-
CLEARLY -- The Message of instruction is Qur'an alone!
Peace
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