Focal Point
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Peace Leoxyz,
EVEN A SINGLE EVIDENCE THAT MECCA DID NOT EXIST AT THE TIME OF REVELATION OF THE QURAN.
Prove that MECCA EXISTED AT THE TIME OF REVELATION OF THE QURAN.
I know you can't. Nobody was able to prove that on this forum or ANYWHERE ELSE.
Let me make it even easier for you
Prove that MECCA EXISTED ANYTIME BEFORE THE 8th CENTURY CE.
Try it.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Leoxyz,
Prove that MECCA EXISTED AT THE TIME OF REVELATION OF THE QURAN.
I know you can't. Nobody was able to prove that on this forum or ANYWHERE ELSE.
Let me make it even easier for you
Prove that MECCA EXISTED ANYTIME BEFORE THE 8th CENTURY CE.
Try it.
Peace,
Ayman
salam brother Ayman
sorry if you directly wished to address brother Leoxyz, but here is my 2 pennies worth.
i think the point is has neither been proved that it existed, nor has it proved that it did not. you cannot say it did not exist just because there is not proof that it did exist.
the lack of proof of its existence and its actual existence are not the same thing.
salam
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Peace Ignoramus,
this verse plays on my mind a great deal. i always thought this is the key to understanding what al masjid al haram is, because, as you say, one could verify a theory by asking people of knowledge of previous scripture. however, it is far from clear who these people are and where one might find them. i do not think most modern jews and christians can be classified as people with knowledge of previous scriptures.
i think if brother Layth has a theory that al masjid al haram is somewhere in Jerusalem or nearby. if you ask most jew or christians, who are the closest i can find to being people with knowledge of previous scriptures, they will unanimously indentify with Jerusalem.
this verse still does not show whether al masjid al haram is a physical thing or location, or if it is something mental. i do not think that people that are the likeliest candidates for people with knowledge of previous scriptures would identify with the institution that you are saying al masjid al haram is.Actually, ask any of the people of the book what is inviolable and shoud be instituted and obeyed, they will all answer "the truth from our lord". This is empirically verifiable.
the later part of this section presents much more difficulty to the idea that al masjid al haram is something physical. it is only now that i understand your point of wherever you may be meaning always, continuously. if by this phrase, God means constantly and always, the theory of al masjis al haram being anything physical hits upon a very tall hurdle, maybe an unsurmountable one.
i have been pondering this phrase wherever you may be and i really have not got to grips by what exactly God means by it. if He means continuously in a strong literal sense, then why did He not make it clearer. i think there are many ways He could have expressed this idea of constancy, but it seems there is a great deal more in this phrase than just that.
all the traditional translations, and tafseer parenthesise in prayer in this phrase, but you are absolutely right that there is nothing that suggests this. i cannot find any contextual reason to justify relating the verse specifically to prayer, and neither can i see any word meaning prayer therein.
i am tempted to conclude that al masjid al haram must be a mental or metphorical thing at this stage, but i am dissatisfied with my understanding of wherever you may be. i realise my arabic is very poor, but i think the matter goes deeper. perhaps you could comment on this phrase? is it used elsewhere in the Quran?The "7yth-ma", "7yth" (where) together with the indefinite "ma" is not used anywhere else except in those passages.
i do not see that a hypocrite is distinguishable of the qibla is a mental one. if is mental, how do you propose to read another's thoughts? if it is physical, you at least have the possibilty of distinguishing you see a hypocrite facing a different direction in private. it is also not obvious that those who turn on their heels means specifically hypocrites. it could mean those who go from belief to disbelief, or from practising the religion of islam (if such a thing exists) to not practising it. in this case, those who turn on their heels are distinguishable.
what is still not clear to me is exactly who is to distinguish. if it is God, then both physical and mental qiblas are clearly distinguishable to Him. if it is his humans, then i think my objections to a mental qibla in the last paragraph stand strong.Actually, it is very easy to empirically verify 2142-150. Go to any Mosque. Instead of praying in the same direction as everyone, pray in a random direction. When people there see you do this, they will certainly ask you something equivalent to the following statement in 2142 "What has made you turn away from the "qibla" that you were on?" You will probably answer them with something equivalent to "the god is everywhere and a physical direction is not important for one to be guided" (to the god belongs the east and the west, he guides whom he wills to a straight path).
Now tell them what you just told us here about the god's message in the passage and the clear implication that "wherever you are is a very tall hurdle, maybe an unsurmountable one for the theory of al masjis al haram being anything physical". What will they do? Will they even think about what the god is saying and reflect upon it? Those who are REALLY interested in setting their direction towards the truth from their lord will think about it and ponder that maybe you have a point. On the other hand, those who are only interested in following others and their forefathers will brush the passage off. Can you distinguish those who follow the messenger (i.e., the message) and who turned on their heels? Absolutely!!! This is an empirically verifiable fact.
i agree that piety is not about facing any direction or any other kind of outward action. the qibla, however, is not necessarily about piety and I do not think God implies that it is. there are many things spoken of in the Quran that are not about piety, although their importance in faith and following the straight path are not any the lesser, for example, adminstering justice or dividing an inheritence.
Everything is about piety. Without piety there would be no justice and people would steal the orphan's money. Read 2142 which introduces the whole passage about the "qibla". The straight path is not a physical road to Mecca or anywhere.
God words are clear, there is not doubt. that my vision is not good is also clear. God veils the hearts of some wrongdoers, and i might just be one of those. i cannot see any way out of this except pray to The Raheem.
These are very wise words. We are only saved by the mercy of the most merciful. May he have mercy on you and on all of us.
please see my last point. also, i think it is not correct to say that there is zero evidence. i agree the evidence is miniscule or weak.
What is that miniscule or weak evidence? I haven't seen any.
also, i sometimes gain insight when strange thoughts cross my mind. it just occured to me that al masjid al haram could be the Quran itself. i do not expect this is the correct interpretation, but sometimes i gain insight into problems by thinkning about the wrong solutions. without going to too much trouble or providing a detailed proof, is there any reason why this idea is ridiculous?
Actually, your natural insight makes very good sense. When one insitutes the great reading (the truth from our lord), which contains the inviolable commands from our lord that should be obeyed, then one is implementing "the inviolable institution of obedience". An institution of government which takes the great reading as its constitution is an inviolable institution of obedience.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ignoramus,
i think the point is has neither been proved that it existed, nor has it proved that it did not. you cannot say it did not exist just because there is not proof that it did exist.
the lack of proof of its existence and its actual existence are not the same thing.But the negative proof shifts the burden of proof. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. So the burden of proof is on those who make the extraordinary claim that Mecca was a famous town established by Abraham and a shrine in it known to the people of the book (as they know their own children) despite the complete absence of any mention of Mecca prior to the 8th century CE and the fact that none of the people of the book ever visited or ever even heard of this so-called Mecca.
If people are going to claim that there were unicorns, fire-breathing dragons, winged horses or 80 meter tall humans then they had better bring the skeletons to support such claims. They should not say "prove that such things didn't exist".
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Leoxyz,
Prove that MECCA EXISTED AT THE TIME OF REVELATION OF THE QURAN.
I know you can't. Nobody was able to prove that on this forum or ANYWHERE ELSE.
Let me make it even easier for you
Prove that MECCA EXISTED ANYTIME BEFORE THE 8th CENTURY CE.
Try it.
Peace,
Ayman
Dear Ayman
I am copy pasting just first paragraph of an article from "Encyclopedia Britannica" Edition 2005. If you need I will paste rest of articles also."The Prophet Muammad
Muammad's years in Mecca
Spiritual awakening. Any explanationof such an unprecedented development must include an analysis not only of Muammad's individual genius but also of his ability to articulate an ideology capable of appealing to multiple constituencies. His approach to the role of prophet allowed a variety of groups to conceptualize and form a single community. Muammad was, according to many students of social behaviour, particularly well placed tolead such a social movement; in both ascribed and acquired characteristics he was unusual. Although he was a member of a high-status tribe, he belonged to one of its less well-placed clans. He was fatherless at birth; his mother and grandfather died when he was young, leaving him under the protection of an uncle. Although he possessed certain admirable personality traits to an unusual degree, his commercial success derived not from his own status but from his marriage to a much older woman, a wealthy widow named Khadjah. During the years of his marriage, his personal habits grew increasingly atypical; he began to absent himself in the hills outside Mecca to engage in the solitary spiritualactivity of the anfs. At age 40, while on retreat, he saw a figure, whom he later identified as the angel Gabriel, who forced him to repeat these words ? Recite In the name of God, the Merciful and Compassionate. Recite And your Lord is Most Generous. He teaches by the pen, teaches man what he knew not.? Although a few individuals, including his wife Khadjah, recognized his experience as that of a messenger of God, the contemporary religious life of most of the Meccans and the surrounding Arabs didnot prepare them to share in this recognition easily.
Arabs did recognize several other types of intermediaries with the sacred. Some of the kings of the Yemen are said to have had priestly functions; and tribal leaders, shaykhs, in protecting their tribes' hallowed custom (sunnah), had a spiritual dimension. Tribal Arabs also had their khins, religious specialists who delivered oracles in ecstatic rhymed prose (sajʾ and read omens. They also had their shirs, professionally trained oral poets who defended the group's honour, expressed its identity, and engaged in verbal duels with the poets of other groups. The power of the recited word was well established; the poets' words were even likened to arrows that could wound the unprotected enemy. Because Muammad's utterances seemed similar, at least in form, to those of the khins, many of his hearers naturally assumed that he was one of the figures with whom they were more familiar. Indeed, Muammad might not even have attracted attention had he not sounded like other holy men; but by eschewing any source other than the one supreme being, whom he identified as Allh (?the god?) and whose message he regarded as cosmically significant and binding, he was gradually able to distinguish himself from all other intermediaries. Like many successful leaders Muammad broke through existing restraints by what might be called transformative conservatism. By combining familiar leadership roles with a less familiar one, he expanded his authority; by giving existing practices a new history, he reoriented them; by assigning a new cause to existing problems, he resolved them. His personal characteristics fit his historical circumstances perfectly."
Now in spite of this you have all the right to say"No, Day is black".
No one can enforce I assure you. -
Can you tell me where Britannica got their source from?
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History is always from authenticated sources.Or is there any other source for history?
Ok You give the proof of Non existance of Mecca.
-Any world History
-Any other Encyclopedia.I wish to know a simple fact. Where did Britannica get this information from? Of what source? Please do not dance around the question. There is no such thing as "non-proof".
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I wish to know a simple fact. Where did Britannica get this information from? Of what source? Please do not dance around the question. There is no such thing as "non-proof".
I have given you my source;Encyclopedia Britanica Edition 2005
From where did they get can be answered by only Encyclopeia Editorial team more accurately.I think Mecca is present nowadays.It must be having its history somewhere else also i.e the time it was founded.
If Encyclopedia Britannica is unreliable (I do not know whether you mean this) Please give the History of Mecca from some other source;
-History Book
-Encyclopedia.
I am in search of authenticated information.Following is the Reference Encyclopedia Encarta
Mecca, also Makkah (ancient Macoraba), city in western Saudi Arabia, located in the Al ijz (Hejaz) region, near Jiddah. Mecca is the birthplace of the Prophet Muhammad (the founder of Islam), the center of pilgrimage for Muslims, and the focal point of their daily prayers. In Arabic, the city is known as Makkah al-mukkaramah (?Mecca the blessed?). Pilgrimage to the city is one of the Five Pillars of Islam and is required of all able adult Muslims at least once in their lifetimes. The pilgrimage (hajj in Arabic) is the defining factor in the growth and life of the city. The influx of close to 2 million pilgrims each year during the last month of the Islamic calendar is a grand human spectacle as well as one of the largest logistical and administrative undertakings in the world.
Referencehttp//encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761577367/Mecca.html
Encyclopedia Orient
'Mecca was a central point on the caravan routes running over the Arabian peninsula at the time of Muhammad. Mecca was revered as a holy city even before the first revelations came to Muhammad."
Reference http//lexicorient.com/e.o/mecca.htm
Wikipedia
"Importance of Makkah
Picture of the Kaaba taken in 1880Academic historians, however, state with certainty only that Makkah was a shrine and trading center for a number of generations before Prophet Muhammad . The extent of Makkan trade has been hotly debated. Some historians believe that Makkah was a waypoint on a land route from southern Arabia north to the Roman and Byzantine empires, and that Arabian and Indian Ocean spices were funneled through Makkah. Patricia Crone, in her book Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam, argues that the Meccans were small merchants dealing in hides, camel butter, and the like."
Reference http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca
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http//www.sacredsites.com/middle_east/saudi_arabia/mecca.html
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Peace,
If Makka existed during the time of Abraham, why it's not mentioning in the Bible. The Bible are known for it's many and colorful stories often in details.
Majidah
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I have given you my source;Encyclopedia Britanica Edition 2005
From where did they get can be answered by only Encyclopeia Editorial team more accurately.Please, when it comes to historical information about the deen, I do not want www.blablablah, I want a simple primary or secondary source, with physical (written or otherwise) evidence, not oral hearsay. Encyclopedia Britannica is no authority on the subject, neither is Wikipedia or www.blablapedia, until we get a primary or secondary source.
Surely there must be a mound of physical evidence from "Islamic sources", dated to pre-600AD? Very strange that Allah would leave out this slight detail in his deen.
My eyes are decieving me, because I cannot see the very important trading hotspot, Makkah, on this map http//nabataea.net/trader.html
Here again, zero mention of a very important hotspot http//www.metmuseum.org/TOAH/hd/silk/hd_silk.htm
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Please, when it comes to historical information about the deen, I do not want www.blablablah, I want a simple primary or secondary source, with physical (written or otherwise) evidence, not oral hearsay. Encyclopedia Britannica is no authority on the subject, neither is Wikipedia or www.blablapedia, until we get a primary or secondary source.
Surely there must be a mound of physical evidence from "Islamic sources", dated to pre-600AD? Very strange that Allah would leave out this slight detail in his deen.
My eyes are decieving me, because I cannot see the very important trading hotspot, Makkah, on this map http//nabataea.net/trader.html
Here again, zero mention of a very important hotspot http//www.metmuseum.org/TOAH/hd/silk/hd_silk.htm
I was expecting such annoyance which is very common when one becomes speechless because of no argument.
Is Mecca present nowadays or not ??
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I was expecting such annoyance which is very common when one becomes speechless because of no argument.
Is Mecca present nowadays or not ??
It's a shame you have nothing but www.blablabla.com that do not state their own sources to back up your arguments whereas well-known trade routes have no mention of the holy city.
Is Mecca present nowadays or not ??
rotfl
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It's a shame you have nothing but www.blablabla.com that do not state their own sources to back up your arguments whereas well-known trade routes have no mention of the holy city.
rotfl
What a speechlessness
1781
(1781) And declare, "The Truth has come and falsehood has vanished for falsehood is a thing that must by its nature vanishHonestly speaking,after observing your mental capability I have created more faith in the Holy Book which says
7179
(7179) And certainly We have created for Hell many of the jinn and mankind; *140 they have hearts with which they fail to understand; and they have eyes with which they fail to see; and they have cars with which they fail to hear. They are like cattle - indeed, even more astray. Such are utterly heedless -
If Makka existed during the time of Abraham, why it's not mentioning in the Bible. The Bible are known for it's many and colorful stories often in details.
SwedenMajidah, have you studied the entire Bible or Psalms? Have you done a thorough research on Mecca? Keep in mind that many names of places, persons, events, businesses, etc., have changed and do change from time to time, while the source remaining intact/existant.Peace!
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What a speechlessness
1781
(1781) And declare, "The Truth has come and falsehood has vanished for falsehood is a thing that must by its nature vanishHonestly speaking,after observing your mental capability I have created more faith in the Holy Book which says
7179
(7179) And certainly We have created for Hell many of the jinn and mankind; *140 they have hearts with which they fail to understand; and they have eyes with which they fail to see; and they have cars with which they fail to hear. They are like cattle - indeed, even more astray. Such are utterly heedlessPlease point out Makkah on those trade routes instead of resorting to idle talk and baseless accusation.
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Please point out Makkah on those trade routes instead of resorting to idle talk and baseless accusation.
Please read my references carefully if they prove existance of Mecca at the time of Prophet or not.
BTW My Prophet PBUH was born in Mecca.Where was your prophet born ?? -
Peace Genteel,
http//www.sacredsites.com/middle_east/saudi_arabia/mecca.html
From the reference that you cited
Adam was formed by god out of a handful of dust taken, according to tradition, from the Holy Rock of Sakhrah in Beyt el Maddas. When god formed Adam He left the figure lying lifeless for forty days, some say forty years, while notice was given to the Angels and the Jinn to be ready to worship him as soon as god put breath into his nostrils. At first Adam was male and female in one body, man on one side and female on the other. In due time the female part separated from the male and became a complete woman. Adam and the woman mated but they were not happy as the female refused to submit to Adam, saying that as they were made from the same dust, he had no right to order her about. So she was turned out of Paradise and, consorting with Iblis (Satan), became the mother of devils. She is called El-Karineh by the Arabs, both Christian and Muslim, and Lilith by the Jews (La Brusha by the Sephardim Jews). She is the deadly enemy of all women, especially those who have recently become mothers. When El-Karineh was driven out of Paradise, god created Eve out of one of Adam's ribs, which had been extracted while he slept. Adam and Eve were happy together until Satan succeeded in getting back into Paradise concealed in a serpent's fangs. Once there, Satan persuaded Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit. Adam, having been persuaded by his wife to share her offense, was, as a punishment, cast out of Paradise together with Eve, Satan and the Serpent. All four of them fell to the earth, each coming to a different place Adam at Serendib or Ceylon; Eve at Jiddah; Satan at Akabah; and the Serpent at Isfahan in Persia. Two hundred years passed before Adam and Eve met once more at Jebel Arafat, the mountain of Recognition, near Mecca. During these two hundred years, Eve had borne offspring of the seeds of devils and Adam had many children by female Jinns.
These idiotic stories are the sort of references that you want us to believe in Mecca based on!!!
Peace,
Ayman