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  4. To Obey the Prophet(PBUH) is obligatory to every Muslim

To Obey the Prophet(PBUH) is obligatory to every Muslim

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  • H Offline
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    hlatif
    wrote on last edited by
    #346

    Salaam all,

    Hlatif
    If you are truthful, then you will need to go ahead and climb somewhere "because the order of the messenger is absolute" according to your theory.

    Samia
    No. This is what I will follow "not to sorrow either for that which ye missed or for that which befell you. Allah is Informed of what ye do."

    That would be partially obeying and partially obeying is rejecting the other part which included climbing upwards. Where is the absolute business that you claimed before? Also, the fact that the order clearly was limited to that particular time and group (without needing to know further) also removes your absolutely "obeying the messenger" myth, which you have invented to support the false prophet vs messenger business.

    Warner, La tukallima annasa illa ramza does not have to mean sign language only. It can also mean speaking with your lips but not making sounds. It is still spoken words but without sound and the spoken words are then seen but not heard. This same phrase means that spoken words are supposed to be heard unless indicated as in this Aya.

    Zidane thanks again for your kindness.

    Take care all and have a good night.

    Hussein

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      zeljko67
      wrote on last edited by
      #347

      Peace Hussein,

      Here are the words again
      37139 And lo! Jonah verily was of the messengers

      37140 When he fled unto the laden ship,

      37141 And then drew lots and was of those rejected;

      37142 And the fish swallowed him while be was blameworthy;
      The messenger Jonah ran away from his job while on his job. What other proof do you guys need that the man erred in his capacity as messenger of God?! Oh, I forgot, running away from the job is allowed because he did not say anything else about God. Nonsense.

      Z You really can't be serious...In verse 37139, the god (via the messenger) is stating as a matter of FACTLY that Jonah was of the "messengers", then in verse 37140 the god (via the messenger) recaps the story of Jonah...

      Jonah was a rejector who wa punished, then prayed to the god and asked for forgiveness and then became a "messenger" delivering god's words to the people of ninevah, thus is the story of how Jonah became of the messengers.

      Yes he does. This is how
      1- Mike obeys the rules of the king.
      2- Any rules that fall within "obey the messenger" but not necessarily "obey the king", then he will also abide by them as well as impose them on others. This is actually what the messenger Muhammad (pbuh) did exactly. He never imposed his rules on others. He imposed them on himself first.

      Z Excuse me Hussein, but it seems you are becoming a bit desperate.. All rules that pertain to "obey the messenger" by default fall under "obey the king" since the position of Messenger is a position given to mike by the king for the sole purpose of delivering the king's message.

      Please stick with the analogy. For it will clarify for you verse 469 and in particular how the Prophet Muhammad(citizen) obeyed the Messenger Muhammad. Best of all, we don't have to involve the silly analogy of the trinity.

      You just proved Samia wrong. This is what she wrote before

      because somewhere else in the qur'aan the obedience to the messenger is obligatory and absolute
      this was her point that when an order is given by the prophet then it is not obligatory nor absolute, but when it is given by the messenger it has to be obligatory and absolute to all people and at all times. Here is a messenger giving order to a particular group limited by time and space. This alleged point of distinction between prophet and messenger as presented by Samia, is then false and incorrect.

      Z No where in verse 3153 is the messenger giving an order to a particular group. The order was already given in the god's book, that order being that god will grant victory to the believers, and as such some will grow haughty and leave the messenger behind calling from the rear reminding them of this previos order.

      Once you remove the hadithic filter from you eyes hussein the verses will(or might) become "self-evident". But as of now, you only see "hills".

      Peace

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        Leoxyz
        wrote on last edited by
        #348

        Z Excuse me Hussein, but it seems you are becoming a bit desperate.. All rules that pertain to "obey the messenger" by default fall under "obey the king" since the position of Messenger is a position given to mike by the king for the sole purpose of delivering the king's message.

        Dear
        Holy prophet's obedience is not that of a King rather it is obedience of "Rasool".Allah has never said "Obey Muhammad" rather "Obey the Rasool".

        Can you prove that Allah appointed the prophet PBUH as a "King?

        Allah also decreed that in the "Rasool" there is EXAMPLE " for you.

        3321
        21. Indeed in the Messenger of All?h (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) All?h and the Last Day and remembers All?h much.

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          unknownuser
          wrote on last edited by
          #349

          Dear
          Holy prophet's obedience is not that of a King rather it is obedience of "Rasool".Allah has never said "Obey Muhammad" rather "Obey the Rasool".

          Can you prove that Allah appointed the prophet PBUH as a "King?

          Allah also decreed that in the "Rasool" there is EXAMPLE " for you.

          3321
          21. Indeed in the Messenger of All?h (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) All?h and the Last Day and remembers All?h much.

          Right! The above verse utterly shatters this argument...

          The messenger Jonah ran away from his job while on his job. What other proof do you guys need that the man erred in his capacity as messenger of God?! Oh, I forgot, running away from the job is allowed because he did not say anything else about God. Nonsense.

          In addition, The Messenger can never be accused of doing this bad example...

          Surah 80. He Frowned!

          1. (The Prophet) frowned and turned away,

          2. Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).

          3. But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow (in spiritual understanding)?-

          4. Or that he might receive admonition, and the teaching might profit him?

          5. As to one who regards Himself as self-sufficient,

          6. To him dost thou attend;

          7. Though it is no blame to thee if he grow not (in spiritual understanding).

          8. But as to him who came to thee striving earnestly,

          9. And with fear (in his heart),

          10. Of him wast thou unmindful.

          11. By no means (should it be so)! For it is indeed a Message of instruction

          12. Therefore let whoso will, keep it in remembrance.

          13. (It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour,

          14. Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy,

          15. (Written) by the hands of scribes-

          CLEARLY -- The Message of instruction is Qur'an alone!

          Peace

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            Leoxyz
            wrote on last edited by
            #350

            Right! The above verse utterly shatters this argument...

            In addition, The Messenger can never be accused of doing this bad example...

            Surah 80. He Frowned!

            1. (The Prophet) frowned and turned away,

            2. Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).

            Peace

            Actual Aya is
            801
            (801) He frowned and turned away

            Which word you have translated as "the prophet"? in parenthesis
            Waiting for your guidance.

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              unknownuser
              wrote on last edited by
              #351

              Actual Aya is
              801
              (801) He frowned and turned away

              Which word you have translated as "the prophet"? in parenthesis
              Waiting for your guidance.

              The same word you have translated/inferred in parenthesis below ...

              3321
              21. Indeed in the Messenger of All?h (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) All?h and the Last Day and remembers All?h much.

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                warner
                wrote on last edited by
                #352

                Warner, La tukallima annasa illa ramza does not have to mean sign language only. It can also mean speaking with your lips but not making sounds. It is still spoken words but without sound and the spoken words are then seen but not heard. This same phrase means that spoken words are supposed to be heard unless indicated as in this Aya.

                Salaam Hussein

                So by your definition Kalam has to be spoken words (even silently) and it should necessarily come out of the mouth and the lips. Do you seriously believe these human attributes about Allah .

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                  Leoxyz
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #353

                  The same word you have translated/inferred in parenthesis below ...

                  Why do you dare tamper the Quran and accuse Almighty Allah and Quran
                  You tried to cheat the people by wrong translation.
                  When you do not know ABC of Arabic ,why do you practice on the Holy Quran.
                  Open a wander's shop and try to run it.
                  Quran translation is beyond your capacity dear.
                  In the Word "Abasa" how did you put " the Prophet"

                  That is Quran decreed 1400 yrs ago.
                  7179
                  (7179) And certainly We have created for Hell many of the jinn and mankind; *140 they have hearts with which they fail to understand; and they have eyes with which they fail to see; and they have cars with which they fail to hear. They are like cattle - indeed, even more astray. Such are utterly heedless

                  Ispite of you all your efforts Message for Quran Tamperer
                  933
                  (933) He is Allah Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Right way so that He may make it prevail over all other ways, *32 even though the mushriks be much averse to it.

                  332
                  (332) Say 'Obey Allah and obey the Messenger.' If they turn away from this then know that Allah does not love those who refuse to obey Him and His Messenger.

                  3132
                  (3132) And obey Allah and the Messenger, that you may be shown mercy.

                  459
                  (459) Believers! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and those from among you who are invested with authority; and then if you were to dispute among yourselves about anything refer it to Allah and the Messenger *89 if you indeed believe in Allah and the Last Day; that is better and more commendable in the end.

                  2454
                  (2454) Say, "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away, you should note it well that the Messenger is responsible for the duty entrusted to him and you are responsible for the duty entrusted to you. If you obey him, you will be rightly guided, for the responsibility of the Messenger is only to convey the Message clearly to you.

                  469
                  (469) And he who obeys Allah and the Messenger -they shall be with those whom Allah has favoured -the Prophets, those steadfast in truthfulness *99, the martyrs, and the righteous." How excellent will they be for companions!

                  464
                  (464) (And tell them that) We never sent a Messenger but that he should be obeyed by the leave of Allah. *94 If whenever they wronged themselves they had come to you praying to Allah for forgiveness, and had the Messenger prayed for their forgiveness, they would indeed have found Allah All-Forgiving, All-Compassionate

                  480
                  (480) He who obeys the Messenger thereby obeys Allah; as for he who turns away, We have not sent you as a keeper over them!
                  414
                  (414) And he who disobeys Allah and His Messenger and transgresses the bounds set by Him - him shall Allah cause to enter the Fire. There he will abide. A humiliating chastisement awaits him.

                  3336
                  (3336) It *65 does not behove a believing man and a believing woman that when Allah and His Messenger have given their decision in a matter, they should exercise an option in that matter of theirs; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Prophet, has indeed strayed into manifest error

                  7223
                  (7223) My mission is only to convey what I receive from Him and His messages. *22 Now whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger for him awaits the fire of Hell such people shall dwell in it for ever.

                  813
                  (813) This is because they defied Allah and His Messenger. Whoever defies Allah and His Messenger must know that Allah is severe in punishment.

                  963
                  (963) Do they not know that whoso opposes Allah and His Messenger shall have the Fire of Hell for him wherein he shall abide for ever? This is a great ignominy.

                  2456
                  (2456) Therefore, establish Salat, pay the Zakat dues and obey the Messenger; it is expected that you will be shown mercy

                  4115
                  (4115) As for him who sets himself against the Messenger and follows a path other than that of the believers even after true guidance had become clear to him, We will let him go to the way he has turned to, *143 and We will cast him into Hell - an evil destination.

                  533
                  (533) He does not speak of his own desire;

                  534
                  (534) it is but a Revelation which is sent down to him

                  331
                  (331) (O Messenger!) Tell people 'If you indeed love Allah, follow me, and Allah will love you and will forgive you your sins. Allah is All-Forgiving, All-Compassionate.'

                  332
                  (332) Say 'Obey Allah and obey the Messenger.' If they turn away from this then know that Allah does not love those who refuse to obey Him and His Messenger. *28

                  3164
                  (3164) Surely Allah conferred a great favour on the believers when He raised from among them a Messenger to recite to them His signs, and to purify them, and to teach them the Book and Wisdom. For before that they were in manifest error.
                  4113
                  (4113) (O Messenger!) But for Allah's favour and mercy upon you, a party of them had resolved to mislead you,yet they only misled them selves, and could not have harmed you in any way. *142 Allah revealed to you the Book and Wisdom, and He taught you what you knew not. Great indeed has been Allah's favour upon you.
                  3321

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                    Samia
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #354

                    Why do you dare tamper the Quran and accuse Almighty Allah and Quran
                    You tried to cheat the people by wrong translation.
                    When you do not know ABC of Arabic ,why do you practice on the Holy Quran.
                    Open a wander's shop and try to run it.
                    Quran translation is beyond your capacity dear.
                    In the Word "Abasa" how did you put " the Prophet"

                    Why are you so angry if Nun understands that "He frowned" as "The prophet frowned"? Where is this tampering?

                    I, for sometime, did not take it as necessarily about the prophet, but this was my own understanding. If you still understand that it is not about the prophet, just make your point so people learn or refute it.

                    And, don't frown onto people who want to learn. This is the most important lesson about this verse, whether it is about the prophet or an anonymous "he".

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                      unknownuser
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #355

                      Waiting for your guidance.

                      Why do you dare tamper the Quran and accuse Almighty Allah and Quran
                      You tried to cheat the people by wrong translation.
                      When you do not know ABC of Arabic ,why do you practice on the Holy Quran.
                      Open a wander's shop and try to run it.
                      Quran translation is beyond your capacity dear.
                      In the Word "Abasa" how did you put " the Prophet"

                      Who Yusuf Ali?

                      http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/80/80_1.htm
                      English (Yusuf Ali)
                      801 (The Prophet) frowned and turned away,

                      Another lesson for you in common sense and logic.

                      To whom was Qur?an given?

                      To whom does God speak to directly in Qur?an?

                      See verses 3340, 472, 806, and use ?al-brain? to put it all together.

                      Transitive Property of Equality if a = b and b = c, then a = c

                      Qur'an is for people of intelligence!

                      Lastly, it is polite to thank people when they give you guidance.

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                        Leoxyz
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #356

                        Why are you so angry if Nun understands that "He frowned" as "The prophet frowned"? Where is this tampering?

                        I, for sometime, did not take it as necessarily about the prophet, but this was my own understanding. If you still understand that it is not about the prophet, just make your point so people learn or refute it.

                        And, don't frown onto people who want to learn. This is the most important lesson about this verse, whether it is about the prophet or an anonymous "he".

                        You people add your own words to the Quran.
                        What is meant by "abasa"???
                        Tell me where Prophet comes in?
                        The cheating as the "mufassarins are doing
                        I hate Quran cheaters

                        You said

                        Why are you so angry if Nun understands that "He frowned" as "The prophet frowned"? Where is this tampering?

                        Subhanallah
                        He frowned = The Prophet frowned =Samia frowned
                        Mashallah
                        No surprise .if you can translate Quranic aya according to weather of the day ,you can do/say this also

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                          Leoxyz
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #357

                          Who Yusuf Ali?

                          http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/80/80_1.htm
                          English (Yusuf Ali)
                          801 (The Prophet) frowned and turned away,

                          Another lesson for you in common sense and logic.

                          To whom was Qur?an given?

                          To whom does God speak to directly in Qur?an?

                          See verses 3340, 472, 806, and use ?al-brain? to put it all together.

                          Transitive Property of Equality if a = b and b = c, then a = c

                          Qur'an is for people of intelligence!

                          Lastly, it is polite to thank people when they give you guidance.

                          I hate anyone who is Quran Tamperer.No matter who he is.
                          I only Believe in Quran .Yousaf Ali may be your "GOD" not mine.
                          Why do you people depend on others.Don't you have common sense or brain.Try to depend on yourself

                          Try to use your brain also.
                          The word is "abasa" (He frowned)
                          Had it been the Holy prophet .Allah might have said 'Abasta"= you frowned.
                          You and Samia are putting blame on Allah and Quran
                          ABSOLUTE QURAN TAMPERING.

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                            unknownuser
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #358

                            I hate anyone who is Quran Tamperer.No matter who he is.
                            I only Believe in Quran .Yousaf Ali may be your "GOD" not mine.
                            Why do you people depend on others.Don't you have common sense or brain.Try to depend on yourself

                            Try to use your brain also.
                            The word is "abasa" (He frowned)
                            Had it been the Holy prophet .Allah might have said 'Abasta"= you frowned.
                            You and Samia are putting blame on Allah and Quran
                            ABSOLUTE QURAN TAMPERING.

                            http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/47/47_2.htm
                            English (Yusuf Ali)
                            472 But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to Muhammad - for it is the Truth from their Lord,- He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition.

                            Surah 80. He Frowned!

                            1. (The Prophet) frowned and turned away,
                            2. Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).
                            3. But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow (in spiritual understanding)?-
                            4. Or that he might receive admonition, and the teaching might profit him?
                            5. As to one who regards Himself as self-sufficient,
                            6. To him dost thou attend;
                            7. Though it is no blame to thee if he grow not (in spiritual understanding).
                            8. But as to him who came to thee striving earnestly,
                            9. And with fear (in his heart),
                            10. Of him wast thou unmindful.
                            11. By no means (should it be so)! For it is indeed a Message of instruction
                            12. Therefore let whoso will, keep it in remembrance.
                            13. (It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour,
                            14. Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy,
                            15. (Written) by the hands of scribes-

                            Use AL-BRAIN!

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                              Samia
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #359

                              Try to use your brain also.
                              The word is "abasa" (He frowned)

                              Had it been the Holy prophet .Allah might have said 'Abasta"= you frowned.

                              You and Samia are putting blame on Allah and Quran
                              ABSOLUTE QURAN TAMPERING.

                              As I always advise you to be quiet and don't hasten. That is not good for the process of thinking which, in your case, is switched off by this haste of yours. Go on reading this chapter

                              1. But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow (in spiritual understanding)?

                              2. Or that he might receive admonition, and the teaching might profit him?

                              3. As to one who regards Himself as self-sufficient,

                              4. To him dost thou attend;

                              5. Though it is no blame to thee if he grow not (in spiritual understanding).

                              6. But as to him who came to thee striving earnestly,

                              7. And with fear (in his heart),

                              8. Of him wast thou unmindful.

                              All underlined words mean "you". Who is "you"?
                              According to you,

                              Had it been the Holy prophet .Allah might have said 'Abasta"= you frowned

                              Or is the verse addressing two different persons he "abasa" and you "the following verses"?

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                                Leoxyz
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #360

                                As I always advise you to be quiet and don't hasten. That is not good for the process of thinking which, in your case, is switched off by this haste of yours. Go on reading this chapter

                                1. But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow (in spiritual understanding)?

                                2. Or that he might receive admonition, and the teaching might profit him?

                                3. As to one who regards Himself as self-sufficient,

                                4. To him dost thou attend;

                                5. Though it is no blame to thee if he grow not (in spiritual understanding).

                                6. But as to him who came to thee striving earnestly,

                                7. And with fear (in his heart),

                                8. Of him wast thou unmindful.

                                All underlined words mean "you". Who is "you"?
                                According to you,
                                Or is the verse addressing two different persons he "abasa" and you "the following verses"?

                                Who are you to add yourself to the Holy Quran .It has used third person singular verb.
                                Do you know arabic
                                No one is named.The verb is "abasa"
                                Tranlate and pull out" Prophet "out of this verb.
                                I tell you your efforts to Tamper the Quran will never be successful inshallah.
                                Islam will remain dominant inspite of your efforts.Allah Himself has promised to Protect it.No matter how much Anti Quran people may try.

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                                  Yosemite
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #361

                                  Have you made your own traduction so you can enlighten people that has no arabic knowings, and that which to read the quran but with no translated bias?

                                  Also, which kind of "islam" are you talking about the one of each sects, or another one i might not know the existance of?

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                                    Samia
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #362

                                    Who are you to add yourself to the Holy Quran .It has used third person singular verb.
                                    Do you know arabic
                                    No one is named.The verb is "abasa"
                                    Tranlate and pull out" Prophet "out of this verb.
                                    I tell you your efforts to Tamper the Quran will never be successful inshallah.
                                    Islam will remain dominant inspite of your efforts.Allah Himself has promised to Protect it.No matter how much Anti Quran people may try.

                                    Are you OK?

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                                      Raj-ah
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #363

                                      Zeljeko

                                      Peace,
                                      Z Before giving us your opinion, it would be wise for you to first learn the difference between a rasool and a prophet (nabi).

                                      Peace

                                      Funny isn't it? It would have been better if you taught me but since you can't
                                      OK let us see what is a Rasool and Prophet?

                                      Do you agree with this? offcourse NO! so let us see what you have to say?

                                      Yes, there is a difference between a Nabi and Rasool. Although there is no standard English translation for both these words, the former may be translated as a Prophet and the latter as a Messenger. What must be kept in mind is that while all the representative of Allah were designated Anbiya (plural of Nabi) with the duty to call others to the right path and warn them about the Last Day of Judgment, some of them were raised to a higher cadre of Rusul (plural of Rasool) who in addition to carrying out the job just specified for Anbiya were vested with the right to decide the fate of their addressees in this very world. In other words, the Rusul of the Almighty personified the divine court of justice on this earth.

                                      A study of the Qur?an reveals that a Rasool first elucidates the truth and beseeches his nation to place credence to the message brought by him from Allah. After many years of preaching, when the nation of the Rasool rejects his message in spite of being convinced about its veracity, the Almighty commands him to leave them in their condition. A court of justice is then set up and reward is announced for the believers and punishment is meted out to the disbelievers who knowingly denies the holy message of their Lord. The Qur?an asserts that the Almighty has ordained that He and His Rusul shall always prevail and that the disbelievers shall be humiliated (1413-14, 5820-21).

                                      Surah Noah describes the preaching endeavor of Noah (pbuh) in a fair detail, who was a Rasool (Messenger). As we go through this Surah, we find him ceaselessly call upon his nation; he exhorts them in private and in public; he presents them with different signs to open their eyes. But the more he explains to them, the more they become obstinate and persistent in their rejection. At last, divine court is established Noah and his followers are sifted out while torrential rains and floods annihilate the rejecters altogether. Similar decision was taken as regards the nations of other Rusul.

                                      In summary, Nabi is only a Warner whereas a Rasool, in addition to being a Warner, also personifies the court of justice on this earth.

                                      Muhammad (pbuh) was a Rasool. The Holy Qur?an says that he will definitely prevail in the Arabian Peninsula no matter how the polytheists may detest it.

                                      He it is who has sent His Messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may detest it. (933)

                                      DArgento
                                      Truth Seeker

                                      Quote
                                      GOD and His angels help and support the prophet. O you who believe, you shall help and support him, and regard him as he should be regarded.

                                      Here's the problem, you can't support a DEAD messenger

                                      First Prophet Muhammad is not dead, he has been transfered to another state of living. Heard word "Intiqaal"?
                                      Second when the verses were revealed the Prophet was alive (not yet transfered to another state of living) and was surrounded by those who SUPPORT him and thus obeying Allah's clear message.

                                      In a foot ball match I support France, is France dead or alive? How can I support France?

                                      Please reagrd him as he should be regarded, weather Rasool or Nabi he was appointed by Allah; and donot compare him with an ordinary post man.

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                                        hlatif
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #364

                                        Salaam all,

                                        Z, If Jonah was not a messenger when he went on the ship, then why was he blameworthy? There is nothing blameworthy for going on a ship. Couple this with 6848 where God warned Muhammad not to be like the "companion of the big fish". Why would God ask him not to be like "the companion of the big fish"? because they had something in common. What was it? They both were messengers and facing tough resistance.

                                        As for my response to analogy, it is perfect and you know it. The messenger obeys God and obeys himself in what he orders. He has to abide by his own rules.

                                        As for 3153. Here is the order that that group did not obey

                                        "As you were going up and not paying heed to anyone while the messenger was calling you from behind you. So Allah rewarded you with worry for worry"
                                        They did not respond to the calling of the messenger. When the messenger calls, he is ordering and has to be obeyed. Yet that was an event limited to time and place and group. Not absolute and obligatory to all, as Samia asserted and as you assert.

                                        Nun, Sura 80 starts with Abasa= He frowned. There is no prophet. Who is He? It does not say name nor messenger nor prophet. If you want to assume Muhammad, and that would be correct, then you cannot impose Muhammad prophet or human there. In fact, linguistically, it should apply to all (person, messenger and prophet). The context of sura 80 is addressing him in his role as one conveying the message.

                                        So by your definition Kalam has to be spoken words (even silently) and it should necessarily come out of the mouth and the lips. Do you seriously believe these human attributes about Allah .

                                        Ok, Words are conceptual. KLM as a concept means voiced words by speaker and comprehended by the listener. When speech comes from humans as Zachariah, it always comes from their lips. So, the lip movement can be considered an acceptable exception to voiced speech for humans when and only when indicated by the context as happened clearly with Zachariah.

                                        KLM for entities other than humans share the concept of voiced words and comprehended by the speaker as the general rule. How and why and where that voiced word comes from depends on the nature of the entity. So, when speech is generated electronically by a computer (for weather emergencies and so on), it is KLM but not coming from a mouth and lung. When God KLM then we know that he voiced words that were comprehended by His listeners, (Moses and so on). How God spoke and all the other specifics is not provided in the Qur'an and therefore one should not speculate. What one should accept is what the Qur'an said GOD KALLAMA MOSES= He spoke words to Moses and Qur'an is Kalam Allah= The spoken word of Allah.

                                        In short, just because lip movement is associated with Kalam of man, it does not have to be present nor be associated with God's speech nor the speech of any other entity as the computer. How God's speech comes out is God's business.

                                        Take care all

                                        Hussein

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                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #365

                                          Who are you to add yourself to the Holy Quran .It has used third person singular verb.
                                          Do you know arabic
                                          No one is named.The verb is "abasa"
                                          Tranlate and pull out" Prophet "out of this verb.
                                          I tell you your efforts to Tamper the Quran will never be successful inshallah.
                                          Islam will remain dominant inspite of your efforts.Allah Himself has promised to Protect it.No matter how much Anti Quran people may try.

                                          Are you debating with yourself or are there more trolls out there?

                                          3321
                                          21. Indeed in the Messenger of All?h (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) All?h and the Last Day and remembers All?h much.

                                          In a foot ball match I support France, is France dead or alive? How can I support France?

                                          Please reagrd him as he should be regarded, weather Rasool or Nabi he was appointed by Allah; and donot compare him with an ordinary post man.

                                          France is DEAD! Nationalism is made up ideology which to believe in is a form of idolatry; likewise so is the pretention that DEAD Prophets (3144) can hear you similar to Christianity.

                                          Nun, Sura 80 starts with Abasa= He frowned. There is no prophet. Who is He? It does not say name nor messenger nor prophet. If you want to assume Muhammad, and that would be correct, then you cannot impose Muhammad prophet or human there. In fact, linguistically, it should apply to all (person, messenger and prophet). The context of sura 80 is addressing him in his role as one conveying the message.

                                          hatlif, no need for linguistics for it is obvious who frowned at the blind man; simple common sense...

                                          Surah 80. He Frowned!

                                          1. (The Prophet) frowned and turned away,
                                          2. Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).
                                          3. But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow (in spiritual understanding)?-
                                          4. Or that he might receive admonition, and the teaching might profit him?
                                          5. As to one who regards Himself as self-sufficient,
                                          6. To him dost thou attend;
                                          7. Though it is no blame to thee if he grow not (in spiritual understanding).
                                          8. But as to him who came to thee striving earnestly,
                                          9. And with fear (in his heart),
                                          10. Of him wast thou unmindful.

                                          Who was God speaking to above? Who was Qur'an sent to (472)? Who was the last Prophet (3340)?

                                          In addition, verses 11-15 precisely detail what The Message which is to be obeyed/followed is...

                                          Surah 80. He Frowned!
                                          11. By no means (should it be so)! For it is indeed a Message of instruction
                                          12. Therefore let whoso will, keep it in remembrance.
                                          13. (It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour,
                                          14. Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy,
                                          15. (Written) by the hands of scribes-

                                          CLEARLY -- The Message of instruction is Qur'an alone!

                                          Peace

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