Hell
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NONE whatsoever!
Salams
An honest question to Genteel and CosmicDancer
If you are convinced that Quran is not a word of God then what are you doing on this forum?
There are two kinds of people in this forum
- those who are convinced that Quran is the word of God and wish to explore Quran.
- those who want to find out if Quran is the word of God or not.
Those who are convinced that it is not the word of God spend their time elsewhere; unless they know deep down that they are wrong.
Also how would you explain the word count miracle? Is the word count miracle a deception? Or was Mohammad super super smart to hide this mirale himself in Quran?
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Oh alright
There are plenty. Here are a few http//www.quran.org/code/allmmlh.htm
If you click on "Quran and Science" and look at the pull down menu on the top right, there are a lot more as well.
What if you discovered these "Mathematical Miracles" were false?
The first one on that link says "The word a day (yewm) is used 365 times in the Quran."
What if you discovered that this was not true.
Is your belief in the Qur'an based on these mathematical miracles?
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NONE whatsoever!
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Salams
An honest question to Genteel and CosmicDancer
If you are convinced that Quran is not a word of God then what are you doing on this forum?
There are two kinds of people in this forum
- those who are convinced that Quran is the word of God and wish to explore Quran.
- those who want to find out if Quran is the word of God or not.
Those who are convinced that it is not the word of God spend their time elsewhere; unless they know deep down that they are wrong.
Also how would you explain the word count miracle? Is the word count miracle a deception? Or was Mohammad super super smart to hide this mirale himself in Quran?
Why am I here?
I believed the Qur'an was the word of God for 48 years.
Do I doubt myself sometimes? All the time.
Do I think deep down I am wrong about the Qur'an? No.
But I do wonder if there is something I missed. Some angle I overlooked? Some interpretation that I was unaware of?
I have a need to test my limits. Look in every corner and under every rock - probe and poke at every question. I do that here but even more on other internet forums. At the moment the internet is my only outlet as I am now isolated from my old community and friends.
The more I probe and look - the more convinced I am that the Qur'an is false.
Why are you here?
As for the two groups you mention
- those who are convinced that Quran is the word of God and wish to explore Quran.
- those who want to find out if Quran is the word of God or not.
I suspect group 1 have many doubts about Islam also and The Qur'an only group is their last desperate attempt at holding onto their faith. Many come here to seek validation and have their beliefs confirmed so they can feel good about themselves.
As for group 2 - I suspect there are very few of those here.
Most people on this forum have made their mind up already - one way or the other.
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What if you discovered these "Mathematical Miracles" were false?
My friend, the "what if" can go either way.
I think it has been proven beyond reasonable doubts that the count is true. Here is a long debate. Ultimately the opponent ate humble pie and agreed on the count.
http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/365days.htm
Another way to prove is to do a count yourself.
Whichever way you do, the burden to verify this is on your shoulder.
Lets suppose for the sake of discussion we both have agreed that the count is correct. What would you say? Can a human write such a book 1400 years ago? I am a computer programmer and I think I am good at math (what a show off I am). I certainly dont think a human can do this. Yes my belief is augmented due to the count and it is enough for me. I accept the book as it is. I try to explore Quran more. There are tons of things that I dont understand. There are things that dont make sense to me. I accept Quran even with all this. On the other hand you want to know why God wrote what he wrote before you accept his words. I dont think it could work this way.
The correct sequence is
YOU SEE MIRACLE -> YOU ACCEPT THE BOOK AS IT IS-> YOU STUDY IT TO LEARN -> YOU ACT ON IT
The wrong sequence is
YOU UNDERSTOOD WHY BOOK SAID WHAT IT SAID -> YOU ACCEPT THE BOOK BECAUSE ALL OF IT MADE SENSE TO YOU-> YOU ACT ON IT
In approach 2 we are assuming we can read God's mind.
People who dont use their brains following sequence 3 which is wrong as well
YOU ACCEPT THE BOOK BECAUSE YOUR MOM (PARENTS/CULTURE) SAID SO-> YOU OPTIONALLY STUDY IT TO LEARN -> YOU OPTIONALLY ACT ON IT
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My friend, the "what if" can go either way.
You didn't answer the question.
What if you discovered these "Mathematical Miracles" were false? Would it make any difference to you? Is your belief in the Qur'an based on these mathematical miracles?
As for me - there is no way on earth I would base such an important decision as whether or not the Qur'an is the word of God - on lists of words and numbers - regardless of what they correspond or did not correspond with.
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What if you discovered these "Mathematical Miracles" were false?
The first one on that link says "The word ?a day? (yewm) is used 365 times in the Quran."
What if you discovered that this was not true.
Is your belief in the Qur'an based on these mathematical miracles?
Yes, partially. There are many, many more mathematical and scientific signs as you can see on that site. It gets to a point where there are too many "coincidences" and I'm compelled to tell myself "there's something weird with this book." It gets to a point where the chances are too slim for it to simply be coincidence after coincidence after coincidence. This is ONE of the reasons I believe it is from God. If I come across a verse that doesn't sound appealing to me (and I do, trust me), I realize that the signs outweigh a human being's subjectivity.
Also, I (and I think a lot of others) am always doubting and analyzing. I want to make it clear that I don't blindly follow anything, I've only been muslim for a few years.
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I suspect group 1 have many doubts about Islam also and The Qur'an only group is their last desperate attempt at holding onto their faith. Many come here to seek validation and have their beliefs confirmed so they can feel good about themselves.
...Or to learn more about the quran so they can become better muslims? This isn't primarily a discuss-if-the-quran-is-divine forum. Sorry if people have set beliefs and are simply seeking to better themselves (
Some, on the other hand, do come here simply to validate their beliefs and feel good about themselves
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I have no problem with God doing the same thing.
But he doesn't.
God tortures people.
What's more he tortures people who don't believe in him.
If any human tortured people for disbelief in God I would be against it.
So you agree when human beings torture other people for their deeds? So you support torture under the correct circumstances right?
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CosmicDancer,
I don't under why and how you keep confusing disbelief in GOD as a simply mental state. It means deeds. deeds follow belief. here is a clear cut example. GOD said Pharaoh will go to Hell.
4046
The Hell will be shown to them day and night, and on the Day of Resurrection "Admit Pharaoh's people into the worst retribution."GOD said Pharaoh will go to hell BECAUSE he disbelieve in GOD (311).
Pharaoh disbelief GOD existed. As a matter of fact, Pharaoh believed he was GOD (283.So naturally, with regards to him, certains deeds followed that belief
He prosecuted people (7127),
oppress (7137),
reject any evidence that he was wrong (311)
and try to kill GOD's messenger (Moses) and his followers (1090).THE QURAN is clear, deeds follow belief. GOD doesn't punish someone only because he "disbelieve" in GOD, but actually punish the person base on the deeds produce from that disbelief (just like he rewards a person base on their deeds). Now for you to assumption and say that a person can disbelieve in GOD yet provide no ill deeds is wrong and not realistic. For example, your personal disbelief in GOD may cause you to rejects GOD sign and evidence like Pharoah did. One may reject to feed the poor or do righteous deeds because he disbelieve in accountability. Those are actions and deeds not just mere mental thoughts.
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Yes, partially. There are many, many more mathematical and scientific signs as you can see on that site. It gets to a point where there are too many "coincidences" and I'm compelled to tell myself "there's something weird with this book."
Have you ever thought that you should really be basing your decision whether to believe or not on the actual content of the Qur'an rather than some alleged 'Mathematical Miracles" ?
btw what do you think about this?
"...In order to prove this he counted the words al-yawm and yawman but he ignored words such as yawmukum (your day) and yawmuhum (their day) and yawmaidhin (on that day), because if he had done that, he would have got a different number..."
http//www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=69741&ln=eng
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So you agree when human beings torture other people for their deeds? So you support torture under the correct circumstances right?
No. I am completely against anyone torturing anyone.
I said I have no problem if God punished criminals the same way we do here on earth. (i.e imprisonment NOT torture.)
So if God imprisoned murderers and rapists - or even executed them as they do in the USA - I wouldn't complain.
But God doesn't do that does He?
God tortures them - forever! (or a long time according to those who interpret it to mean that)
And if God was only torturing murderers and rapists and other serious criminals - that would be bad enough - but the worst thing is God says he will torture people for simply not believing in him.
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I don't under why and how you keep confusing disbelief in GOD as a simply mental state. It means deeds. deeds follow belief.
Where is your proof that belief or disbelief in God makes you either better or worse behaved?
The only evidence that either you or I have is purely anecdotal and subjective.
No doubt you will tell me that religious people are much better behaved than athiests etc..
But from my perspective I see that - if anything - religious people are the ones who are not well behaved.
here is a clear cut example. GOD said Pharaoh will go to Hell.
4046
The Hell will be shown to them day and night, and on the Day of Resurrection "Admit Pharaoh's people into the worst retribution."GOD said Pharaoh will go to hell BECAUSE he disbelieve in GOD (311).
Pharaoh disbelief GOD existed. As a matter of fact, Pharaoh believed he was GOD (283.Yes I know what the Qur'an says.
But the problem is I don't believe in the Qur'an anymore.
So using the Qur'an to prove to me that the Qur'an is true is a bit meaningless isn't it.
It's like saying, 'The Qur'an is true, because it says it's true.'
)
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Have you ever thought that you should really be basing your decision whether to believe or not on the actual content of the Qur'an rather than some alleged 'Mathematical Miracles" ?
btw what do you think about this?
"...In order to prove this he counted the words ?al-yawm? and ?yawman? but he ignored words such as ?yawmukum? (your day) and ?yawmuhum? (their day) and yawma?idhin (on that day), because if he had done that, he would have got a different number..."
http//www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=69741&ln=eng
Who said I solely base it on math? That's only one thing to strengthen my faith. That is why I said
Yes, partially.
)Read this http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/365days.htm
Also, I don't really think the day thing is that "miraculous," but there are many others that are simply almost impossible for a human to even try to accomplish (and not even tell anyone about it). Too many coincidences.
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Have you ever thought that you should really be basing your decision whether to believe or not on the actual content of the Qur'an rather than some alleged 'Mathematical Miracles" ?
btw what do you think about this?
"...In order to prove this he counted the words ?al-yawm? and ?yawman? but he ignored words such as ?yawmukum? (your day) and ?yawmuhum? (their day) and yawma?idhin (on that day), because if he had done that, he would have got a different number..."
http//www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=69741&ln=eng
As said, read that debate.
Of course, to base your belief purely on the numbers would be ridiculous, but it is simply an affirmation that great intelligence went into the creation of the book.
As for the content, what stops you believing? Is it just Hell?
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So if God imprisoned murderers and rapists - or even executed them as they do in the USA - I wouldn't complain.
But God doesn't do that does He?
God tortures them - forever! (or a long time according to those who interpret it to mean that)
And if God was only torturing murderers and rapists and other serious criminals - that would be bad enough - but the worst thing is God says he will torture people for simply not believing in him.
For someone who doesn't believe in GOD, it surprises me how you can make such statement like "But God doesn't do that does He?
God tortures them - forever!" as if you KNOW GOD....)BTW, I dont think that is true. The concept of Hell basically imprisonment (312, 2222, 3220).
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Where is your proof that belief or disbelief in God makes you either better or worse behaved?
The only evidence that either you or I have is purely anecdotal and subjective.This is not "anecdotal" and subjective but can be scientifically measured.
For example, evidence are within the US prison system where studies have shown inmates who have access to church, masjid, and other religious services are less violent and more compliant within the prison system than those you dont have access to these services. This is a direct relation to the belief in GOD and acting base on that belief.CosmicDancer, honestly you have no valid points. You are somewhat flip flopping. You agree with punishment yet disagree with GOD doing the same which is complete illogical. Then you make claims that GOD punish people solely on mental belief which i have proven wrong according to the Koran (even the Bible preach punishment for deeds and not belief alone too - Rev. 2010). So honestly, i don't know where you got that misconception from about disbelief in GOD mentally equals hell.
Yes I know what the Qur'an says.
But the problem is I don't believe in the Qur'an anymore.
So using the Qur'an to prove to me that the Qur'an is true is a bit meaningless isn't it.
It's like saying, 'The Qur'an is true, because it says it's true.'
That is not the issue. Believe or disbelieve in the Quran, base on my examples from it, you can agree that it preach the opposite of your misconception that simply mental belief is the only reason one enters Hell. I just want to show you that your ideas about GOD and Hell are not supported in the Quran (and other religious scriptures).
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As for the content, what stops you believing? Is it just Hell?
No, not just that.
It is the whole of the Qur'an really. I simply don't see it as anything more than the words of a human being from a harsh 7th century desert environment.
I have absolutely no reason to believe it is fropm God - but plenty of reasons to believe it from a human being.
Maybe when I have a bit more time I will list some of my major problems with the Qur'an. (and with religion in general).
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The concept of Hell basically imprisonment (312, 2222, 3220).
How do you explain the verses that describe in graphic detail excrutiating tortures, such as having one's skin burnt of repeatedly or boiling fluid poured on the head.
Is that your idea of imprisonment?
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This is not "anecdotal" and subjective but can be scientifically measured.
For example, evidence are within the US prison system where studies have shown inmates who have access to church, masjid, and other religious services are less violent and more compliant within the prison system than those you dont have access to these services. This is a direct relation to the belief in GOD and acting base on that belief.I would be interested to read this study - do you have a link or a reference?
You agree with punishment yet disagree with GOD doing the same which is complete illogical.
What part of; 'humans don't torture prisoners' - don't you get?
Then you make claims that GOD punish people solely on mental belief which i have proven wrong according to the Koran
I am not convinced in the slightest by your arguments.