Hell
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As for the content, what stops you believing? Is it just Hell?
No, not just that.
It is the whole of the Qur'an really. I simply don't see it as anything more than the words of a human being from a harsh 7th century desert environment.
I have absolutely no reason to believe it is fropm God - but plenty of reasons to believe it from a human being.
Maybe when I have a bit more time I will list some of my major problems with the Qur'an. (and with religion in general).
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The concept of Hell basically imprisonment (312, 2222, 3220).
How do you explain the verses that describe in graphic detail excrutiating tortures, such as having one's skin burnt of repeatedly or boiling fluid poured on the head.
Is that your idea of imprisonment?
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This is not "anecdotal" and subjective but can be scientifically measured.
For example, evidence are within the US prison system where studies have shown inmates who have access to church, masjid, and other religious services are less violent and more compliant within the prison system than those you dont have access to these services. This is a direct relation to the belief in GOD and acting base on that belief.I would be interested to read this study - do you have a link or a reference?
You agree with punishment yet disagree with GOD doing the same which is complete illogical.
What part of; 'humans don't torture prisoners' - don't you get?
Then you make claims that GOD punish people solely on mental belief which i have proven wrong according to the Koran
I am not convinced in the slightest by your arguments.
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I would be interested to read this study - do you have a link or a reference?
What part of; 'humans don't torture prisoners' - don't you get?
I am not convinced in the slightest by your arguments.
http//www.haworthpress.com/store/ArticleAbstract.asp?sid=GTKFR6K0GKVA9NPPD62RB10AM0SH3444&ID=19605
http//www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a718869673~db=all
http//66.102.1.104/scholar?num=20&hl=en&lr=&q=cachehl0o_CCC_FsJwww.pficjr.org/APACPUB/Studies/AssessingtheImpactReligious.pdf+
Google never hurt anyone )
Also, it is guaranteed that full justice and no more will be delivered in the Quran. I still see no problem, if God exists, and can create us, thus knowing us inside out, why is it impossible for God to not judge fairly? I see this thread as an attempt to justify your belief, not as an attempt to learn. Accept the simple evidence (see a few posts back, also, 4522, 63, and others).
What part of; 'humans don't torture prisoners' - don't you get?
When you exit fairyland, you may find the exact opposite to be the case. Prison in itself is mental/psychological torture. Punishment in any way, shape or form is torture. Show me a quantitative limit from which "torture" can be called "punishment".
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When you exit fairyland, you may find the exact opposite to be the case. Prison in itself is mental/psychological torture. Punishment in any way, shape or form is torture. Show me a quantitative limit from which "torture" can be called "punishment".
Tell me how is 10, 20 or even 30 years in a prison - the same as repeatedly burning off someone's skin and then replacing it so they can continue to feel the pain - or pouring scalding liquid into their brain or making them eat fruit like the head of devils that shreds their intestines.
Re surveys about religion in prisons - what do you feel this proves? To me it indicates that prisoners who feel remorse and want to atone for what they have done, find religion the best way to express this.
Perhaps a more interseting survey would be how many prisoners believe in God and a religion and how many don't and how does that correspond to the wider population.
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Dear Comicdancer;
The person who who tried to prove every word and every sentence is 19 or multiple of 19 was merely a BIG FRAUD.
He took out two verses of the Quran just to materialize his claim..His status in islam is not more than a "Kazzaab"=LiarIs that generally agreed by everyone here?
What about the 365 days = number of Yawm in Qur'an? Is that guy considered by most here to be a fraud? What do you think about the guy who said he selectively included variations of Yawm to make the number fit what he wanted?
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Tell me how is 10, 20 or even 30 years in a prison - the same as repeatedly burning off someone's skin and then replacing it so they can continue to feel the pain - or pouring scalding liquid into their brain or making them eat fruit like the head of devils that shreds their intestines.
Re surveys about religion in prisons - what do you feel this proves? To me it indicates that prisoners who feel remorse and want to atone for what they have done, find religion the best way to express this.
Perhaps a more interseting survey would be how many prisoners believe in God and a religion and how many don't.
It shows DIRECTLY that religion = lower recidivism. What you said is purely conjecture, yet here we have at least 3 studies directly linking religion to improvement. What you are doing is extrapolating, simply to justify your preconcieved notions, and nothing more. How many prisoners have you surveyed, and analysed that told you that they "felt remorse and wanted to atone"? The fact remains, however, that regardless, people improve with religion. If people who wish to improve tend toward religion, then I am sure you know the meaning of the word "fitrah".
As for "10, 20, 30 years in a prison", we are not talking about that. We are talking about so-called civilised countries where this routinely occurs ("extraordinary rendition", "creative interrogation", "thoughtcrime", etc ). The difference being, that the God who creates us and knows us better than ourselves does it with full justification, contrary to your preconcieved notions, and contrary to the human idea of "torture if you fear".
Perhaps a more interseting survey would be how many prisoners believe in God and a religion and how many don't.
No, an even better survey would be about how many prisoners practise the religion they claim to follow, especially at the time of their crime. I can predict the results 0. The word of a hypocrite is null and invalid in this context, nice try however. Claiming belief in God is just not enough. The example of the Arabs in 4914 - nobody can claim belief or faith, but they can claim submission. Belief in judgement day, and hence, accepting responsibility for your own actions & consequences is required, but claiming to do so is simply not enough (28+).
Regardless of this, it does not affect any of us in any way, shape or form. Someone using the threat of hellfire to enforce belief would be in the wrong. Likewise, someone using this same threat to reject is also in the wrong. We have no power to judge who is or is not going to hell. You cannot point at Joe Atheist Bloggs and say "You're going to hell". Bring your evidence if you are truthful, simple as that. The Quran states to the contrary, but since that does not fit your preconceptions, it must not exist.
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Is that generally agreed by everyone here?
What about the 365 days = number of Yawm in Qur'an? Is that guy considered by most here to be a fraud? What do you think about the guy who said he selectively included variations of Yawm to make the number fit what he wanted?
I wouldn't put something Leoxyz said in the same sentence "most here"... but that's just me.
In the meantime, check this thread out, it might be of some help - http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9721.0
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Is that generally agreed by everyone here?
What about the 365 days = number of Yawm in Qur'an? Is that guy considered by most here to be a fraud? What do you think about the guy who said he selectively included variations of Yawm to make the number fit what he wanted?
FM is very diverse. Are you being honest about your background? Not a single educated ("Islamically" soul have I ever seen who did not know about Khalifa. In any case, most on here don't accept the removal of two verses.
As for the 365 count, that comes from Edip Yuksel and others.
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Is that generally agreed by everyone here?
What about the 365 days = number of Yawm in Qur'an? Is that guy considered by most here to be a fraud? What do you think about the guy who said he selectively included variations of Yawm to make the number fit what he wanted?
Surely he was "Fraud".
The proof is just to justify his "methodology" he removed two verses from the Holy Quran.
All of his theory is based on "LIE" and you can imagine what sort of people are following him
"Birds of a feather flock together"
"A man is know by the company he keeps" -
It shows DIRECTLY that religion = lower recidivism. What you said is purely conjecture, yet here we have at least 3 studies directly linking religion to improvement. What you are doing is extrapolating, simply to justify your preconcieved notions, and nothing more. How many prisoners have you surveyed, and analysed that told you that they "felt remorse and wanted to atone"? The fact remains, however, that regardless, people improve with religion. If people who wish to improve tend toward religion, then I am sure you know the meaning of the word "fitrah".
Actually I suspect that it is true that religion does transform the behaviour of many converts or those who have been re-born into the faith. But it neither proves that belief is true, nor does it mean that the remaining prisoners are representative of those who do not believe in God in the general population.
There is no doubt that many find the crutch of religion helps give them boundaries, direction, motivation and comfort. But it also drives many to commit horrendous acts of bigotry and hatred towards the 'other'.
As for "10, 20, 30 years in a prison", we are not talking about that. We are talking about so-called civilised countries where this routinely occurs ("extraordinary rendition", "creative interrogation", "thoughtcrime", etc )). The difference being, that the God who creates us and knows us better than ourselves does it with full justification, contrary to your preconcieved notions, and contrary to the human idea of "torture if you fear".
Even Guantanimo or Saddams torture chamber (all of which I am completely against) do not compare with the horrors described in the Qur'an (which is supposed to make me worship and love the God who does that)
an even better survey would be about how many prisoners practise the religion they claim to follow, especially at the time of their crime. I can predict the results 0.
991 bombers, 7/7 bombers, Bali bombers, Madrid bombers, Jime Jones, David Koresh, Baruch Goldstein, etc...
No - let me guess - they were not true believers.
Someone using the threat of hellfire to enforce belief would be in the wrong. Likewise, someone using this same threat to reject is also in the wrong.
lol... I'm not threatening anyone with hell-fire? What are you talking about?
I don't believe in Hell. I don't think you will burn in Hell if you are a Muslim. I don't think anyone will burn in Hell.
I do not have a clue what is going to happen to us when we die - perhaps we all have to suffer the consiquences of our actions - that seems reasonable to me - but imho, beliefs will have nothing to do with it.
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FM is very diverse. Are you being honest about your background? Not a single educated ("Islamically" soul have I ever seen who did not know about Khalifa. In any case, most on here don't accept the removal of two verses.
As for the 365 count, that comes from Edip Yuksel and others.
I have heard about the Submitters but don't know a great deal about Rashad Khlaifah or the Qur'an only group - except that they reject Hadith and are considered apostates by traditional Muslims. (In my experience most Muslims have heard of the submitters, but - like me - actually know very little about them apart from the fact they reject Hadith)
I never came accross this site before and wasn't aware it was a submitters site.
So is it funded and run by submitters?
Who is Edip Yuksel (sounds Turkish) - was he a follower of Rashad Khalifah who came up with some of his own miracles?
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Surely he was "Fraud".
The proof is just to justify his "methodology" he removed two verses from the Holy Quran.
All of his theory is based on "LIE" and you can imagine what sort of people are following him
"Birds of a feather flock together"
"A man is know by the company he keeps"What are your beliefs then Leoxyz?
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Why am I here?
I believed the Qur'an was the word of God for 48 years.
Do I doubt myself sometimes? All the time.
Do I think deep down I am wrong about the Qur'an? No.
But I do wonder if there is something I missed. Some angle I overlooked? Some interpretation that I was unaware of?
I have a need to test my limits. Look in every corner and under every rock - probe and poke at every question. I do that here but even more on other internet forums. At the moment the internet is my only outlet as I am now isolated from my old community and friends.
The more I probe and look - the more convinced I am that the Qur'an is false.
Why are you here?
As for the two groups you mention
- those who are convinced that Quran is the word of God and wish to explore Quran.
- those who want to find out if Quran is the word of God or not.
I suspect group 1 have many doubts about Islam also and The Qur'an only group is their last desperate attempt at holding onto their faith. Many come here to seek validation and have their beliefs confirmed so they can feel good about themselves.
As for group 2 - I suspect there are very few of those here.
Most people on this forum have made their mind up already - one way or the other.
Dear cosmicdancer
Please read the following article may be you could find your answer.
http//www.themodernreligion.com/index2.html
May god guide you.
peace
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Actually I suspect that it is true that religion does transform the behaviour of many converts or those who have been re-born into the faith. But it neither proves that belief is true, nor does it mean that the remaining prisoners are representative of those who do not believe in God in the general population.
There is no doubt that many find the crutch of religion helps give them boundaries, direction, motivation and comfort. But it also drives many to commit horrendous acts of bigotry and hatred towards the 'other'.
Even Guantanimo or Saddams torture chamber (all of which I am completely against) do not compare with the horrors described in the Qur'an (which is supposed to make me worship and love the God who does that)
991 bombers, 7/7 bombers, Bali bombers, Madrid bombers, Jime Jones, David Koresh, Baruch Goldstein, etc...
No - let me guess - they were not true believers.
lol... I'm not threatening anyone with hell-fire? What are you talking about?
I don't believe in Hell. I don't think you will burn in Hell if you are a Muslim. I don't think anyone will burn in Hell.
I do not have a clue what is going to happen to us when we die - perhaps we all have to suffer the consiquences of our actions - that seems reasonable to me - but imho, beliefs will have nothing to do with it.
Religion (in this post, synonymous with Quran) does not teach that people should "commit horrendous acts of bigotry towards the other". When you call "religion" a "crutch", are you saying this out of spite of your rejection? How many religious people, and previously atheists and converts to atheism will say their current faith is a "crutch"? Converts are the most extreme, and this applies to both sides.
Even Guantanimo or Saddams torture chamber (all of which I am completely against) do not compare with the horrors described in the Qur'an (which is supposed to make me worship and love the God who does that)
It is not intended to make you believe. It is information, and nothing more, and the moral of the story is "you are responsible for your actions". Again, as for the "horrors described in the Quran", you keep dancing around a simple question - Does the God who created us and knows us better than ourselves, literally inside out, lack the capacity to judge fairly as per the promise in the Quran? Stop appealing to emotion, and start thinking.
991 bombers, 7/7 bombers, Bali bombers, Madrid bombers, Jime Jones, David Koresh, Baruch Goldstein, etc...
No - let me guess - they were not true believers.
Are you joking?!? Of course they weren't. The Quran is FULL of examples of these people, they are called hypocrites who claim belief and do not follow through with actions and intentions, and by Quranic standards, they are definitely kaffir, since to do their acts would require rejecting many verses of the Quran and scripture, and in turn, God. These people are concretely such, having acknowledged that the book is the word of God, yet still turning away. This is a perfectly valid argument, but militant atheisms have attempted to spin it into the "No true X" fallacy, backed up by "Islam" as a label as opposed to a system, and hypocrites. Belief is by action, then by affirmation, and these peoples' actions show their complete lack of belief. Remember that in the Quran, it states hypocrites have been made easy to see (631-2, especially note 632 which describes their exact psyche, http//free-minds.org/articles/hadith/testimony.htm - this goes in-depth, though the main topic is unrelated). In any case, be careful where you throw that argument. It is purely baseless. Such enlightening logic from the "beacon of logic, rationality and free thinking" (ahem - not you, but the general source of that particular argument).
Someone using the threat of hellfire to enforce belief would be in the wrong. Likewise, someone using this same threat to reject is also in the wrong.
lol... I'm not threatening anyone with hell-fire? What are you talking about?
Your usage of the concept of hell-fire to reject the Quran. Someone should not use the hell-fire to compel another into belief, and someone simply should not use it to reject belief. It falls into the domain of unverifiable knowledge of the unseen (see 37, 1736, and others).
I don't believe in Hell. I don't think you will burn in Hell if you are a Muslim. I don't think anyone will burn in Hell.
I do not have a clue what is going to happen to us when we die - perhaps we all have to suffer the consiquences of our actions - that seems reasonable to me - but imho, beliefs will have nothing to do with it.
Your choice. It doesn't affect any of us in this life, in any case. Rather, it does, but it should never if one strives to be a good human without compulsion.
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I have heard about the Submitters but don't know a great deal about Rashad Khlaifah or the Qur'an only group - except that they reject Hadith and are considered apostates by traditional Muslims. (In my experience most Muslims have heard of the submitters, but - like me - actually know very little about them apart from the fact they reject Hadith)
I never came accross this site before and wasn't aware it was a submitters site.
So is it funded and run by submitters?
Who is Edip Yuksel (sounds Turkish) - was he a follower of Rashad Khalifah who came up with some of his own miracles?
This site has zero to do with "Submitters", to my perception.
Who is Edip Yuksel (sounds Turkish) - was he a follower of Rashad Khalifah who came up with some of his own miracles?
LOL. www.yuksel.org
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Dear cosmicdancer
Please read the following article may be you could find your answer.
http//www.themodernreligion.com/index2.html
May god guide you.
peace
Thanks - Actually I know the sister who set up that site - it is a good site and she is a sweet sister )
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Does the God who created us and knows us better than ourselves, literally inside out, lack the capacity to judge fairly as per the promise in the Quran? Stop appealing to emotion, and start thinking.
If God exists - then, yes, I would expect him to know us better than ourselves.
That doesn't make it any easier for me to accept the idea that unbelievers will burn in Hell.
It only encourages me to defer such questions to such a time that God can answer them.
I used to say that to myself.
But now I feel that it is my responsibility to ask questions and if the answers don't satisfy me then how can I believe? Surely that's why God put us here?
If I am wrong - then God can of course punish me for rejecting him and Islam.
But I can only call it as I see it - and in my heart of hearts I do not believe God will punish me for that - even if I am wrong.
Are you joking?!? Of course they weren't.
Whatever you think of Bin Laden and his merry men - they ardently believe what they believe.
Of course you consider them Kafirs.
They consider you Kafir.
They have their interpretations - you have yours.
From what I have seen on this site (i.e regarding the verse about hitting one's wife) I can't say I am very impressed with either of you.
There are so many people claiming they represent 'true' Islam - it's a joke and I can fully understand why so many non-Muslims ask
Will the real Islam please stand up.