Hell
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Even if they are true - they would not convince me to believe unless I believed in the content - the actual message.
Oh alright, that explains a lot. So ANY extraordinary signs wouldn't even raise your eyebrow simply because somethings don't appeal to you?
By all means, believe what you want. Again, I tend to go more with objectivity.
But it seems that even these mathematical miracles seem to be false anyway from what I read about the first one on your link (365 days) it seems that he randomly decided what forms of Yawm to count and what forms to dismiss to reach the required number. It also seem the guy who did the 19 miracle also ignored some verses.
You realize there are at least hundreds more scientific/mathematical signs on that site? I really don't know how you would explain some of them coming from a human.
I don't look at a few Muslims who commit crimes like 9/11 (supposedly) and apply that to the quran. What Muslims do does not equal what the quran says. I also don't say that simply because a group of people are the minority, they're more inclined to being wrong, as if Galileo wasn't a minority.
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I have no proof of that statement.
The Qur'an may well say God judges fairly - but saying something - and it being true are two different things.
I don't think burning unbelievers in Hell seems very fair.
That's irrelevent. I reject both you and Bin Laden. But which of you is closer to true Islam, I couldn't say for sure. Like I say, they have their proofs and you have yours (though if you twisted my arm I would have to say that the arguments I have seen here are weaker.)
But The Jihadists/Salafists are quite different - they are driven by their complete devotion to their religious beliefs.
Well actually there are many Salafis - I used to teach at a Muslim school don't forget and knew the Muslim community around North London well. I also know Morocco and Egypt well and the Salafi ideology is widespread and support for Bin Laden is popular amongs many Muslims on the streets of Egypt, Morocco and even England.
On the other hand I have NEVER met a Qur'an only believer.
Then what is the matter with all these Jihadis, Wahhabis, Salafis and even the vast majority of traditional Muslims who follow the traditional Mathabs?
How come only a tiny minority of Muslims in this day and age have been able to read the Qur'an and understand the obvious like you?
A) Please read the posts, SHM's post and my last. All citations are there.
B) And can you prove that statement to be true or false? NO. Simple as that. Likewise, you cannot prove Hell to be true or false, in the here and now. So, the entire argument is irrelevant.
C) Please stop parroting that statement. It has zero basis in reality.
D) Again, your subjective opinion. If the person's argument who is advocating genocide on a large scale is more appealing to you, you have severe mental deficiencies, and this is written in all seriousness.
E) Yet the demands by so-called Jihadists are almost entirely political, and mostly blowback from the actions of Israel, the USA, and Britan before the Commonwealth.
F) I have yet to meet a single person who openly or secretly advocates genocide in the form that Al-Qaida do, in the heart of London. Am I living in a cocoon? I just don't see these evil islamofascististic terrists anywhere here.
G) The point being? Have you ever met Mother Theresa?
H) This is a result of parrot fashion & indoctrination. Have you ever set foot in a madrassa? Almost every single student there will probably be able to repeat vocalised Arabic, as if they were a native speaker. Show them text without the short vowels, and they all drop. Ask them to recite the meaning of one of those surahs or a verse - and they all drop. Strangely, of course, this doesn't happen for hadeeth. How many of these "jihadist salafi wahhabis" actually have knowledge or have bothered to question their beliefs past what they were taught by their fathers (another Quranic example)? The language barrier is milked to the core by so-called Mullahs and others. How many non-Arabic people sitting at a Friday jumah are secretly thinking "What the hell is this gibberish?"? So on, and so on. Plus, in many countries, Islam is heavily mixed with tradition, and very little knowledge of actual Quran (parrot fashion aside) is rare - translations and such. However, the village elders will instantly tell you this and this hadeeth that says you should or should not urinate to the direction of the qiblah. Can they give a reference to this hadeeth in Sahih Bukhari or another compilation? No, because they are parroting what they were told by their mullah who was parroting what he was told by some other, until we get up to the point of a remotely educated scholar. Chinese whispers in full effect. How many people at the "muslim school" you taught at were placed their by the parents because it was "Muslim" and how many questioned their beliefs? The Quran is filled to the brim of these examples, but it wooshes over their heads.
G) How come only a tiny minority of the ENTIRE BODY OF MANKIND have suddenly come to the realisation, that after eight thousand plus years of civilised human history, there is no God? As for the "understand the obvious", perhaps because they had no access to "the obvious". And of course, mass misguidance. Where a verse says one thing clearly and can only end in one result, traditionalists will still add such and such an interpretation so that it will fit with their preconceptions. Of course, this riddles the Quran with even more logical fallacies (in a similar way that taking out one building block of Khalifa's counting destroys the rest and creates a new set), and creates a new religion when compounded. And FYI, it is not a "tiny minority" that has "islam", a lot of people (non-adherents) believe in God and use their own instincts to go about. Most "Muslims" do so too (unless you are telling me that the person reciting Arabic in parrot fashion in a rural village is magically drawing guidance from the book).
I don't look at a few Muslims who commit crimes like 9/11 (supposedly) and apply that to the quran. What Muslims do does not equal what the quran says. I also don't say that simply because a group of people are the minority, they're more inclined to being wrong, as if Galileo wasn't a minority.
Well said
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Even if they are true - they would not convince me to believe unless I believed in the content - the actual message.
But it seems that even these mathematical miracles seem to be false anyway from what I read about the first one on your link (365 days) it seems that he randomly decided what forms of Yawm to count and what forms to dismiss to reach the required number. It also seem the guy who did the 19 miracle also ignored some verses.
He counted the singulars, did he not?
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Please note that I may seem strong in my words and sound harsh, but would like to spit it out nevertheless strictly based upon point of views and the relevance of the subject matters carried out without getting bombarded on person and staying within the limits of rules. So here I go
Also, it is guaranteed that full justice and no more will be delivered in the Quran. I still see no problem, if God exists, and can create us, thus knowing us inside out, why is it impossible for God to not judge fairly? I see this thread as an attempt to justify your belief, not as an attempt to learn.
Belief in God is NOT A LAW and Muslims can't seem to understand this, because Muhammad enforced these beliefs and subjugated people as such to believe in him and his god or else get severely punished and ALL Muslims follow his footsteps, be it Quran Only, Quran + Ahadith Only or Quran + Ahadith + Sunnah Only. This is clearly exposed in the Quran alone (the supposed final revelation) which only Muslims believe in, which they can't seem to comprehend. People get punished because of their wrongdoings and misdeeds not because of their beliefs and ideologies. That is totally ludicrous. The notion of "why can't God do this or why can't God do that" and "if God this or if God that" or "God prohibited this and God prohibited that" etc., etc., etc., based upon an ancient book is absolutely baseless. It has no meaning in this real world.Accept the simple evidence (see a few posts back, also, 4522, 63, and others).
Exactly, accept this or else.....just what the doctor ordered in ancient time and Muslims ardently and wishfully follow this line of thought regardless. This line of reasoning is dangerous to all humanity. If every cult today took this stance and subjugated each other in their godly beliefs, then there would be religious chaos and wars all over the world. Note that it is only Muslims who fight and kill each other for this very belief. For Quran aloners, even this thought is not spared among themselves. It is no wonder that people in Holland and other European, western and Asian countries are getting sick of this nuisance that is causing a total rift of anger among all others and among themselves for which they want this Quran banned altogether. Now we see more and more websites of ex-Muslims popping up just for these reasons.Prison in itself is mental/psychological torture. Punishment in any way, shape or form is torture. Show me a quantitative limit from which "torture" can be called "punishment".
What happened at Abu Gharab is torture, what is happening in Iraq and Afghanistan is torture, what happened at underground "torture chambers" in Iraq by Saddam's men is torture, stoning people to death as witnessed in Iran is torture, massacring and displacing millions of lives in Palestine is torture and these very Muslims yell to the world that all this is unacceptable and cruel yet equate these acts of cruelty upon their Allah when it comes to their Quran for crying out loud and display fascism as to "why can't HE do it"? What? Is your "God" a human? O please, spare this dreadful, illogical and double standard reasonings.From some of the "free-minds" Quran ONLY beliefs, here's the general consesus
All sunnies are hypocrites and disbelievers
All shias are hypocrites and disbelievers
All wahabies are hypocrites and disbelievers
All ex-Muslims are hypocrites and disbelievers
All other Quran Aloners are hypocrites and disbelievers
All other religions and cults are hypocrites and disbelievers
All atheists and agnostics are hypocrites and disbelievers
All information other than the Quran is not needed because it says so.
Everyone of the above is deaf, dumb and blind.
The Quran can only be judged and understood from Arabic dictionaries.
All history is useless.
Islam is not Islam but islam.
Muslims are not Muslims but muslim.
Proper names are not proper names but common nouns.
Mecca never existed during Muhammad.
Quran cannot possibly be sent down other than a fathomless unperceivable GOD.Whatever others claim to say, it magically becomes either out-of-context, metaphorical or literal (whichever suits them) and cannot be understood by others because their minds are sealed. As a matter of fact each Muslim cult blame the other for being hypocrites, disbelievers and their minds being sealed.
The fact is, that if all Muslims relentlessly and unthinkably believe that the Quran is the final word of God and the entire humanity must believe in it for ALL TIMES, then absolutely NONE believe in it themselves. The Quran has become nothing more than a talk-of-the-town and a total farce.
Anything anyone disagrees with, please let it out and explain so that we can discuss it further (perhaps in the Quranic Divinity or Nature of God sections). Thanks.
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A) Duh! Thank you for stating the obvious - belief in God is not a law. In fact, according to the Quran, there is no compulsion in deen, which obviously encompasses a much broader category. In any case, thank you for stating what I've been trying to say for the last few posts. As for "The notion of "why can't God do this or why can't God do that" and "if God this or if God that" or "God prohibited this and God prohibited that" etc., etc., etc., based upon an ancient book is absolutely baseless. It has no meaning in this real world.", the argument is baseless/pointless/idle, corect. The simple logic used, however, is NOT. It's a pure thought experiment, in any case. So, you have re-iterated two simple points I have been parroting for the last few posts.
B) So you are comparing a simple statement/prompt to forced compulsion in deen? Jesus Christ... Where do you see "or else"? It is a simple prompt, maybe it would have been better worded as "acknowledge this evidence", but for you to rip on the argument based on semantics alone and then use it to go on an emotional rant is purely ridiculous, and irrelevant. I'm sure there would be "religious chaos all over the world" if people acknowledged it, but hey, scientists have found that breathing oxygen is linked to cancer.
C) You are correct. All this happening is torture. As for these acts of cruelty, keep in mind they are described as similitudes (see a few pages back). In any case, this argument applies to both sides. The difference here, is that we/I am advocating the punishment's relation to justice, whereas you are making an emotional plea and using a strawman argument (that there is no justice or fair judgement).
D) Please show where you have surveyed FM and found that to be the "consensus". Don't we all just love taking out-of-context quotes...
E) A typical argument of the "free thinking rational beacon of morality" sect. Negate the argument and claim that either side can be correct. Of course, for sane people, this has zero basis, and a cursory look at the actual arguments instead of endlessly citing them will show who is correct and who is incorrect. This same logic would mean Nazi-ism and Communism would have taken over the globe, because after all, they happen to exist. Mere existance of disagreement is not evidence of falsehood on both sides. I like how you use "magically", it just adds to the logical effect of your argument. Oh, wait, it didn't. Sorry.
F) And where have you suveyed this? Much of the Quran is implemented - the advice. People may be in states of acceptance and rejection of parts of the Quran, but practically nobody can deny that they have rejected the Quranic commands wholesale - unless we inteview a fornicating, warmongering rapist who happens to be a mass-murdering thief with 60 wives and a wealth amassed from hoarding interest. As for "talk of the town", the Quran is actually very widely implemented (the personal section), it is civil law and the grand scale where the disagreements begin. This, notwithstanding the problem of parrot fashion amongst Muslims, nowadays.
G) Why did you not make your own topic instead of shifting the topic yet again? Please reply to the "jizya" thread, specifically regarding the compensation section, as in the ACTUAL QURANIC CONTENT and not the supposed actions of people based on hearsay and conjecture.
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OPF, if you want to discuss the "no compulsion in religion", "contradictions and inconsistencies in the Quran" and the "belief in your Allah", then lets do it in the Quranic Divinity or Nature of God sections on a one-to-one basis. I can assure you that you will not be able to go step further. I am sorry to say that you are an excited thoughtless person and as seen from your above post, too quick to jump to conclusions. You are most welcome to bring along Zakir Naik or Harun Yahya if you wish or even call upon your Allah just to see if HE, the almighty can actually help you in this regard. Start praying. I am getting tired of Muslims such as yourself spouting baseless and meaningless renditions of Quran. It is time to end this matter from my perspectives. Let us all witness how strong is this OPF (O Profit of Freeminds) in his Quranic beliefs.
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Oh alright, that explains a lot. So ANY extraordinary signs wouldn't even raise your eyebrow simply because somethings don't appeal to you?
Chapter 26
- T?.S.M.
- These are the signs of the Scripture of clarity.
- Perhaps you are grieving yourself that they do not become believers.
- If We wish, We could send down for them from the heavens a sign, to which they would bend their necks in humility.
- And not a reminder comes to them from the Almighty, except that they turn away from it.
- They have denied, thus the news will come to them of what they used to ridicule.
PEACE
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Chapter 26
- T?.S.M.
- These are the signs of the Scripture of clarity.
- Perhaps you are grieving yourself that they do not become believers.
- If We wish, We could send down for them from the heavens a sign, to which they would bend their necks in humility.
- And not a reminder comes to them from the Almighty, except that they turn away from it.
- They have denied, thus the news will come to them of what they used to ridicule.
Zein,
- What is T'.S.M.?
- What signs of the scripture is this Quran talking about and were you present to witness these signs during Muhammad's time?
- What was the grieving about during Muhammad's time?
- How did Muhammad "wish" to send down signs from above to his people to which they would bend their necks in humility? Was it really a "wish"? What the heck is Muhammad talking about?
- Which almighty AND why would Muhammad "wish" for something that he supposedly already knew everthing what God ordained and especially being a messenger of God? Was God Almighty weak in sending HIS message to all mankind? Doesn't this alleged God Almighty had the power to control HIS own messenger for HIS OWN WORD? O man, good heavens, I just can't believe such idiocities coming out some "intelligent" people.
Do you realize how silly these verses are when talking about a fathomless unperceivable God of our Universe? Good grief!!!
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OPF, if you want to discuss the "no compulsion in religion", "contradictions and inconsistencies in the Quran" and the "belief in your Allah", then lets do it in the Quranic Divinity or Nature of God sections on a one-to-one basis. I can assure you that you will not be able to go step further. I am sorry to say that you are an excited thoughtless person and as seen from your above post, too quick to jump to conclusions. You are most welcome to bring along Zakir Naik or Harun Yahya if you wish or even call upon your Allah just to see if HE, the almighty can actually help you in this regard. Start praying. I am getting tired of Muslims such as yourself spouting baseless and meaningless renditions of Quran. It is time to end this matter from my perspectives. Let us all witness how strong is this OPF (O Profit of Freeminds) in his Quranic beliefs.
I have zilch to do with FM, but start your topic. I don't claim to know, in any case, but you have yet to correctly address a single argument, instead going on about Muhammad doing X or Y or Z, and droning on about the consensus/lack of consensus (when it suits you), and of course, the actions of claimed muslims around the world.
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I have zilch to do with FM, but start your topic. I don't claim to know, in any case, but you have yet to correctly address a single argument, instead going on about Muhammad doing X or Y or Z, and droning on about the consensus/lack of consensus (when it suits you), and of course, the actions of claimed muslims around the world.
"I have zilch to do with FM", that's the first LIE. "I don't claim to know", a second LIE? You are all over the forum beating drums, making false accusations about an alleged merciful Allah and his magical book descended 1500 years ago from heavens when you and your great grand fathers were not even born and act as if you've witnessed it all via Lane Lexicon dictionaries. The way you seem to make allegations about your Allah as if you know HIM personally and the Quran being the very word of your alleged Allah when you damn well know that it was ONLY an ancient narcist and a terrorist who said it, whose effects the world has constantly and patiently being witnessing? There is absolutely no doubt about it from both Quranic and Historical standings and it is impossible for a merciful and gracious Creator of the Worlds. There's no such thing as "prophet of GOD or messenger of GOD" in the real sense. It is all made-up ancient human stories exposed from idols and idolworshipping acts. If the real Muhammad was to suddenly appear today, he will be killed instantly by the Muslims themselves without a second thought.Where is your evidence that it was a fathomless unperceivable ALLAH who sent one of his body guards named Gabriel to HIS specially chosen Muhammad in cave in total seclusion from the entire outside world? Where you there sneaking behind a cave witnessing the speech of an Angel with numerous wings standing in front of Muhammad? Do you have any knowledge about Muhammad and his intentions to bring about a religion named Islam? Do you any knowledge of how the Quran was collected, compiled and revamped long after the death of Muhammad to begin with? Are you aware of or figure out why there are inumerous contradictions, inconsistencies and unecessary repetitions throughout the Quran or do they truely become out-of-context or misunderstood invariently by every Muslim cult as understood. You hop, dance, manipulate and twist around in excitement to show off your pathetic fairytale beliefs written down in an ancient book which you nor any Muslim has any grounds to concretely support and yet have the entire world to succumb and submit to it for ALL TIMES? Myself and the majority of the WORLD including ex-MUSLIMS and apostates who know it too well are being constantly deceived by your lies, attacks and cunning ways to enforce Quranic Rules one way or the other and you cry wolf when others want to ban this book totally? WHAT??? It's falling on ALL deaf ears?
I am truely sorry for the above but I must open up my chest and mind wide open for I cannot take such lies, deceit and manipulations any further and am getting sick of the non-stop parroting, bigoting and hypocritical nature of Muslims when it comes to Quran and belief in a supernatural UNKNOWN AND UNSEEN deity whom they deliberately take its name in vain.
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Wow, take a chill pill, really. It's the internet, no need to get emotional. Let's stick to reality
For instance, I don't believe almost all of the middle section of your rant, because frankly, it is unverifiable. Where do you find the "Angel (sic) standing in front of Muhammad" in the Quran? Where is the cave of Hira mentioned? Where in the Quran does it say that Gabriel has wings and did such and such? Who is crying wolf when people wish to ban Quran? Who is demanding that the world succumbs to the Quran? Where are the "cunning ways", the "lies" and "attacks", in any case?
If the real Muhammad was to suddenly appear today, he will be killed instantly by the Muslims themselves without a second thought.
Then apparently, I'm not a muslim, or something. The physical "Muhammad" is irrelevant to me, as is Abraham and others (though they have an example to be followed). But hey, the Quran tells me I am muslim by virtue of that statement in brackets .
I am truely sorry for the above but I must open up my chest and mind wide open for I cannot take such lies, deceit and manipulations any further and am getting sick of the non-stop parroting, bigoting and hypocritical nature of Muslims when it comes to Quran and belief in a supernatural UNKNOWN AND UNSEEN deity whom they deliberately take its name in vain.
Good. At least you let it out.
Now, please explain where I have any affiliation with FM aside from posting on here.
As for the "I don't claim to know", I thought that was self-evident, but I really don't know. Maybe I should place it in large red bold print in a signature, as a disclaimer? -
So you also realized this .
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Wow, take a chill pill, really. It's the internet, no need to get emotional. Let's stick to reality
For instance, I don't believe almost all of the middle section of your rant, because frankly, it is unverifiable. Where do you find the "Angel (sic) standing in front of Muhammad" in the Quran? Where is the cave of Hira mentioned? Where in the Quran does it say that Gabriel has wings and did such and such? Who is crying wolf when people wish to ban Quran? Who is demanding that the world succumbs to the Quran? Where are the "cunning ways", the "lies" and "attacks", in any case?
Then apparently, I'm not a muslim, or something. The physical "Muhammad" is irrelevant to me, as is Abraham and others (though they have an example to be followed). But hey, the Quran tells me I am muslim by virtue of that statement in brackets .
Good. At least you let it out.
Now, please explain where I have any affiliation with FM aside from posting on here.
As for the "I don't claim to know", I thought that was self-evident, but I really don't know. Maybe I should place it in large red bold print in a signature, as a disclaimer?
O, so its all about Internet, eh, so people like you can LIE AND DECEIVE THE HELL OFF and then talk about reality. I get it? On the contrary, if its not in the Quran it cannot possibly be anywhere written or said? Who told you that? Your fake "god" written in the Quran 1500 years ago? What a shame? Once again, you claim to know it all yet a minute ago you claimed that you don't know. This is the height of LIES and DECEIT coming from YOUR END, the MUSLIMS of the 21st Century? Welcome to the New Age Modern Islam, better than before. BRAVO!!! -
He counted the singulars, did he not?
Apparently he left out singulars like Yawmukum (Your day) and Yawmaithin (This day) but included the dual Yawmayn (2 days).
Seems rather arbitrary to me.
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Please note that I may seem strong in my words and sound harsh, but would like to spit it out nevertheless strictly based upon point of views and the relevance of the subject matters carried out without getting bombarded on person and staying within the limits of rules. So here I go
Belief in God is NOT A LAW and Muslims can't seem to understand this, because Muhammad enforced these beliefs and subjugated people as such to believe in him and his god or else get severely punished and ALL Muslims follow his footsteps, be it Quran Only, Quran + Ahadith Only or Quran + Ahadith + Sunnah Only. This is clearly exposed in the Quran alone (the supposed final revelation) which only Muslims believe in, which they can't seem to comprehend. People get punished because of their wrongdoings and misdeeds not because of their beliefs and ideologies. That is totally ludicrous. The notion of "why can't God do this or why can't God do that" and "if God this or if God that" or "God prohibited this and God prohibited that" etc., etc., etc., based upon an ancient book is absolutely baseless. It has no meaning in this real world.
Exactly, accept this or else.....just what the doctor ordered in ancient time and Muslims ardently and wishfully follow this line of thought regardless. This line of reasoning is dangerous to all humanity. If every cult today took this stance and subjugated each other in their godly beliefs, then there would be religious chaos and wars all over the world. Note that it is only Muslims who fight and kill each other for this very belief. For Quran aloners, even this thought is not spared among themselves. It is no wonder that people in Holland and other European, western and Asian countries are getting sick of this nuisance that is causing a total rift of anger among all others and among themselves for which they want this Quran banned altogether. Now we see more and more websites of ex-Muslims popping up just for these reasons.
What happened at Abu Gharab is torture, what is happening in Iraq and Afghanistan is torture, what happened at underground "torture chambers" in Iraq by Saddam's men is torture, stoning people to death as witnessed in Iran is torture, massacring and displacing millions of lives in Palestine is torture and these very Muslims yell to the world that all this is unacceptable and cruel yet equate these acts of cruelty upon their Allah when it comes to their Quran for crying out loud and display fascism as to "why can't HE do it"? What? Is your "God" a human? O please, spare this dreadful, illogical and double standard reasonings.From some of the "free-minds" Quran ONLY beliefs, here's the general consesus
All sunnies are hypocrites and disbelievers
All shias are hypocrites and disbelievers
All wahabies are hypocrites and disbelievers
All ex-Muslims are hypocrites and disbelievers
All other Quran Aloners are hypocrites and disbelievers
All other religions and cults are hypocrites and disbelievers
All atheists and agnostics are hypocrites and disbelievers
All information other than the Quran is not needed because it says so.
Everyone of the above is deaf, dumb and blind.
The Quran can only be judged and understood from Arabic dictionaries.
All history is useless.
Islam is not Islam but islam.
Muslims are not Muslims but muslim.
Proper names are not proper names but common nouns.
Mecca never existed during Muhammad.
Quran cannot possibly be sent down other than a fathomless unperceivable GOD.Whatever others claim to say, it magically becomes either out-of-context, metaphorical or literal (whichever suits them) and cannot be understood by others because their minds are sealed. As a matter of fact each Muslim cult blame the other for being hypocrites, disbelievers and their minds being sealed.
The fact is, that if all Muslims relentlessly and unthinkably believe that the Quran is the final word of God and the entire humanity must believe in it for ALL TIMES, then absolutely NONE believe in it themselves. The Quran has become nothing more than a talk-of-the-town and a total farce.
Anything anyone disagrees with, please let it out and explain so that we can discuss it further (perhaps in the Quranic Divinity or Nature of God sections). Thanks.
Excellent post Genteel.
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Where is your evidence that it was a fathomless unperceivable ALLAH who sent one of his body guards named Gabriel to HIS specially chosen Muhammad
Indeed! The bottom line is that there is no undeniable proof - no conclusive evidence - that the Qur'an is Gods word. What evidence is there - is not conclusive. It boils down to whether you believe it or not.
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Indeed! The bottom line is that there is no undeniable proof - no conclusive evidence - that the Qur'an is Gods word. What evidence is there - is not conclusive. It boils down to whether you believe it or not.
There you go. You've finally confirmed the only reason you're here for.
Sincerely,
Deluded Loony Fringe