SECTARIANISM is what's killing us!!!!
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Peace all,
After reading This Article by Dr. Manzoor 'ul Haque, I've decided to do further research and studying into the whole sectarian issue and I finally realize that we here at this forum are just as guilty of sectarianism as the traditional muslims. '(
I want to give you all a briefing of my conclusions and the research I have done to come to them.
First the research I simply used 3031-32, 3103, and 6159 as my points of departure. I studied these verses and all the words that are in these verses, then I re-read Manzoor 'Ul Haque's article (along with a few other articles of similar import), and studied those verses again...and again...and again...and yet again. I have been pondering pretty heavily on this topic for at least a month now.
I had looked up the root words Sheen-Yaa-'Ayn and Faa-Raa-Qaf in every standard Arabic or Quran Dictionary at my disposal and after much reading and pondering, I have come to the conclusion that those who profess a Quran Alone stance are not innocent of this crime. A crime that is described as shirk, the unforgivable offense.
My conclusions
The ones who follow Quran Alone have decided to seperate/break off/distinguish themselves from the traditional muslims by banding together to follow their own way. The Quran only faction are just as guilty of 3032 as are the many factions of the traditional muslims. And much like the traditional muslims, the quran alone faction are further divided into many other sub-factions.
Anytime a group of people decide to seperate/distinguish themselves from a group of others, go by a name/label different from the others, extend brotherhood to one another within the group as opposed to those outside of the group, and refuse unity with those outside of the group are officially practicing partisanship/sectarianism and are GUILTY of committing Idolatry.
I no longer call myself Quran Only Muslim, Quran Alone Muslim or Quranist or Quraniyy. I am simply a Muslim. Nothing more, nothing less. I also accept the terms Mumin (Believer) and Haneef (Monotheist/Pro-GOD) since they are also utilised in the quran favourably. Though I must say while stating this I only take GOD's Book as my source of guidance and knowledge in matters of Deen.
Sects are always started when there are enough people that are dissatisfied with the practices and views of the current group and wish to seperate themselves from that group and become their own ideal group. This is the essence of sectarianism.
Dr. Manzoor 'ul Haque pointed out in his very informative article how Aaron (brother of Moses) deliberately allowed Bani Israel to make the golden idol in Moses' absence because he did not wish to arouse a situation that will create division among the people and yet neither GOD nor Moses chastised Aaron for doing this. This is a very strong indication of the seriousness of factionalism and divisionism in GOD's view.
I ask you all who come across this thread to do two things (not for me. Do it for your own sake)...Study, and I mean really, really Study the root words Sheen-Yaa-'Ayn and Fa-Ra-Qaf inside and out. Study them in every standard Arabic Dictionary and Lexicon that you can get your hands on. Then read the above mentioned verses and all the other verses where derivatives of these words are used in the quran. Notice how the quran utilises these words. Notice what GOD says about divisionism/factionalism/sectarianism and how it is tantamount to Shirk!! Shirk, the one offense that GOD will Never Forgive.
Even the many different Masaajid (Mosques) that are abundantly scattered in many different parts of your average city here in the U.S. My city is not that big, yet I can tell you that there are definately 9 Mosques here that am 100% certain of. And these are just the Mosques that I know of. There could be others. These Mosques were NOT established for convenience of location. And neither do the individuals who prefer any one Mosque over the others frequent them on merit of location. No, they go to the one that they believe is more correctly inclined than the others are. That's just the bottom line.
My only question now that I haven't been able to answer is how to Effectively address this issue while guarding ourselves against the illegitimate practices of the muslim factions at the same time. I pondered on this thought as well and I must say that it looks extremely bleak. What to do, what to do? hypno
Let's talk about it.
Salaam,
Damon. -
Peace Navid,
Thanx bro. I'll read it and get back to you, GOD Willing.
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Peace
If you have any suggestions/comments/questions, please let me know.
I no longer call myself Quran Only Muslim, Quran Alone Muslim or Quranist or Quraniyy. I am simply a Muslim.
I do agree with you here. This makes it seem as if we're a separate sect, when in fact we are not.
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I never call myself "Quran alone" or any such thing
Such a term makes no sense, in any case.
You are correct, in any case.
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I think it is very naif to think that our broblem with sectarianism is so suprficial as to scratch jut at their name. I aslo want to point out that the name "qur'aniyyuun" was not chosen by those who follow qur'aan alone, but by the sectarians themselves. And yes, we want (I want) to stand different from them. I do not mind if someone calls me qur'aaniyya or munkira lilhadeeth (hadith rejector) or anything, yet I do not say "I am qur'aaniyya" if someone asks me my religion. I do not say "muslim", period, either. Labels never make someone a believer or an idolator. When a "muslim" commits atrocities, people would say he is not a muslim. These labels express your beliefs, but do not make them.
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Peace Navid,
Nice article you wrote bro. I like the conclusion you came to concerning a solution to the problem, but I agree with Manzoor ul Haque's idea of a solution better.
I do agree with you here. This makes it seem as if we're a separate sect, when in fact we are not.
I have to disagree with you Navid. Maybe You are not sectarian minded, but I can assure you that many others here are. The fact remains that most people who frequent this site as well as any of the other Quran Alone sites do not frequent traditional muslim forums on a regular basis, except maybe to do battle against them. That, my friend, is a case of the sectarian phenomenon.
How many regular members here are also regular members at ourbeacon.com, submission.org, or 19.org? How many regular members of ourbeacon.com and 19.org also frequent this forum on a regular basis? Arnold Yasin is the only person that I know of who does this.
How many people here still pray the traditional salat? I apologize if it looks like I'm finger pointing or slinging accusations around. It is certainly nothing personal towards this forum or the members here. I am merely pointing out an observance I have made and the conclusion that came from it.
Salaam,
Damon. -
Peace Navid,
Nice article you wrote bro. I like the conclusion you came to concerning a solution to the problem, but I agree with Manzoor ul Haque's idea of a solution better.
I have to disagree with you Navid. Maybe You are not sectarian minded, but I can assure you that many others here are. The fact remains that most people who frequent this site as well as any of the other Quran Alone sites do not frequent traditional muslim forums on a regular basis, except maybe to do battle against them. That, my friend, is a case of the sectarian phenomenon.
How many regular members here are also regular members at ourbeacon.com, submission.org, or 19.org? How many regular members of ourbeacon.com and 19.org also frequent this forum on a regular basis? Arnold Yasin is the only person that I know of who does this.
How many people here still pray the traditional salat? I apologize if it looks like I'm finger pointing or slinging accusations around. It is certainly nothing personal towards this forum or the members here. I am merely pointing out an observance I have made and the conclusion that came from it.
Salaam,
Damon.So what do you want to say that we should make a cocktail of all those sects and follow them &
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How many people here still pray the traditional salat? I apologize if it looks like I'm finger pointing or slinging accusations around. It is certainly nothing personal towards this forum or the members here. I am merely pointing out an observance I have made and the conclusion that came from it.
And how many of you send salam on the prophet? Or had Holy Communion?
I don't think so...
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Peace Navid,
Nice article you wrote bro. I like the conclusion you came to concerning a solution to the problem, but I agree with Manzoor ul Haque's idea of a solution better.
Thank you, I will read Manzoor ul Haque's article in its entirety.
I have to disagree with you Navid. Maybe You are not sectarian minded, but I can assure you that many others here are. The fact remains that most people who frequent this site as well as any of the other Quran Alone sites do not frequent traditional muslim forums on a regular basis, except maybe to do battle against them. That, my friend, is a case of the sectarian phenomenon.
I meant that I agree with you in that some people here make it seem as if we are a separate sect. However, I don't think people here not going on traditional forums (if this is true) is directly correlated with sectarianism. Perhaps it is a result of most people who follow the quran only have already experiences and been part of a sect their whole life, so they tend to stay on sites like FM. The opposite is true for most sunni/shia; they have been sunni/shia their whole life.
How many regular members here are also regular members at ourbeacon.com, submission.org, or 19.org? How many regular members of ourbeacon.com and 19.org also frequent this forum on a regular basis? Arnold Yasin is the only person that I know of who does this.
How many people here still pray the traditional salat? I apologize if it looks like I'm finger pointing or slinging accusations around. It is certainly nothing personal towards this forum or the members here. I am merely pointing out an observance I have made and the conclusion that came from it.
Again, I don't see how this implies sectarianism.
Peace
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I think it is very naif to think that our broblem with sectarianism is so suprficial as to scratch jut at their name. I aslo want to point out that the name "qur'aniyyuun" was not chosen by those who follow qur'aan alone, but by the sectarians themselves. And yes, we want (I want) to stand different from them. I do not mind if someone calls me qur'aaniyya or munkira lilhadeeth (hadith rejector) or anything, yet I do not say "I am qur'aaniyya" if someone asks me my religion. I do not say "muslim", period, either. Labels never make someone a believer or an idolator. When a "muslim" commits atrocities, people would say he is not a muslim. These labels express your beliefs, but do not make them.
Samia, re-read my post and you will see that you are ranting about things that are not the point of my post or have anything to do with the topic. I did not say not calling myself a quraniyy any more solves the problem or is the heart of the problem either. The label is merely one of the many manifestations of the sectarian/seperatist/divisionist mindset that I am talking about.
Now if someone wishes to call me a quraniyy or munkirulhadeeth and refuses to acknowledge me as a muslim and wishes not to call me brother, that's fine by me. That person is the one guilty of seperation and division, not me. He will have to answer to GOD for it, not me.
I wish to disengage myself from the sectarian madness and strive for the unity that GOD is speaking of in His Book. And the mindset that I am operating with is the Unity of the 'Cool'. Meaning if you are 'cool' with me, then I am 'cool' with you. If you have a problem with my way of practicing Islam and wish not to be 'cool' with me, so be it. To you your way and to me my way. GOD is the one who will judge between us.
By the way, the term quraniyoon was deliberatly chosen by Subhi Ahmed and his comrades in Egypt (Ahlul Quran). This is a name they chose for themselves for their own reasons and have absolutely nothing to do with whatever others wish to label them as.
Question for you Samia, have you read Dr. Manzoor ul Haque's article ? If so, what points do you disagree on and what are your refutations against them?
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Salaam Navid,
Again, I don't see how this implies sectarianism.
Peace
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Turn towards Him and be dutiful to Him; be firm in devotion, and do not become an idolater,
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(Or) one of those who created rifts in their order and are divided into sects, with each group exulting in what it has (carved out for itself) --
(Ahmed Ali translation) -
Returning to God/repenting/obeying* to Him, and fear and obey Him, and keep up/start* the prayers, and
do not be from the sharers/takers of partners (with God). -
From those who separated (in) their religion, and they were groups/parties (sects)* , each/every group/party
(sect)* with what (is) at them they are happy/rejoiced*.
(Mohamed & Samira Ahmed translation)
Now, we just need to ask ourselves two fundamental questions...
Upon their disillusionment of what the traditional muslims are doing, did not the free-minders (and quran aloners in general) separate themselves from the traditional muslims and made themselves into a seperate identity within Islam? Yes or No ?
Also, are not the free-minders (and quran aloners in general) happy and rejoicing in what they have going on as a group of believers and see no need to show brotherhood/comradery with the other groups of believers within islam? Yes or No ?
I leave you all with those two question for now.
Salaam all,
Damon. -
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Now, we just need to ask ourselves two fundamental questions...
Upon their disillusionment of what the traditional muslims are doing, did not the free-minders (and quran aloners in general) separate themselves from the traditional muslims and made themselves into a seperate identity within Islam? Yes or No ?
Also, are not the free-minders (and quran aloners in general) happy and rejoicing in what they have going on as a group of believers and see no need to show brotherhood/comradery with the other groups of believers within islam? Yes or No ?
Sects within Islam are derived from following humans and manmade works. We all agree on the validity of the quran; the creation of sects relies inevitably in following humans. The quran clarifies this fact
You shall submit to Him, reverence Him, observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and - whatever you do - do not ever fall into idol worship.
(Do not fall in idol worship,) like those who divide their religion into sects; each party rejoicing with what they have.
This makes clear that "rejoicing with what they have" is referring manmade works each sect follows, since everyone agrees on the quran. This is all we are doing, following the quran only, this is how we avoid sectarianism. All we are simply doing is having a forum in which we can better ourselves as muslims in the context of our beliefs (following the quran only). This is nowhere near what the quran talks about, in regards to sects.
Peace
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You can't say I was "ranting" and then acknowledge that "label" was one of many manifestations. It should not be any of the manifestations, hence my comment.
As for the name "qur'aaniyyun", I know of "ahlul qur'aan" a long time ago before Sub7i Mansour appeared on the arena. I was also asked if I were "qur'aaniyya" during the early ninties.
Yes Damon, I read the article. My problem is not just with the writter, but with your understanding of the article. I think you could have simply referred to verse 6153 to understand what is meant by 3103. If mere unity is what God wants us to be, why sending messengers? We could well unite in idol worshipping or no belief at all (Isn?t this what some allude to in understanding verses 2092-94?). As I mentioned before, just because "qur'aanism" is on the rise now, this does not make it a "new" sect. It IS what God wants us to follow exclusively. Thanks to the internet which neutralised suppression of thought now like-minded people can communicate and learn. Muhammad have distanced himself before from idol worshippers. Does that make him "happy with what he got"?
What I do not understand from the author is his focus on "how to pray" as the sign of unity!
Ah, and the author speaks of Masjid-E-Zarrar!
So, yes, I also have a problem with the author.
I also do not have any problem with any group that does not take hadeeth as divine "sayings". I have a big problem with anybody who takes hadeeths as divine. Does that make me muslim like them?
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peace brother Damon,
Dr. Manzoor 'ul Haque pointed out in his very informative article how Aaron (brother of Moses) deliberately allowed Bani Israel to make the golden idol in Moses' absence because he did not wish to arouse a situation that will create division among the people and yet neither GOD nor Moses chastised Aaron for doing this. This is a very strong indication of the seriousness of factionalism and divisionism in GOD's view.
Interesting, although I have not studied the story thoroughly.
When I read your post, I first thought of chapter 9, specifically 911.
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Peace Damon,
After reading This Article by Dr. Manzoor 'ul Haque, I've decided to do further research and studying into the whole sectarian issue and I finally realize that we here at this forum are just as guilty of sectarianism as the traditional muslims. '(
Dr. UlHaque doesn't even understand basic concepts such as the concept of "deen"/obligation and "muslim"/peacemaker. Thus he is unable to translate them or see their implications.
I want to give you all a briefing of my conclusions and the research I have done to come to them.
First the research I simply used 3031-32, 3103, and 6159 as my points of departure. I studied these verses and all the words that are in these verses, then I re-read Manzoor 'Ul Haque's article (along with a few other articles of similar import), and studied those verses again...and again...and again...and yet again. I have been pondering pretty heavily on this topic for at least a month now.Since you have studied those passages then please share with us your translation of those passages based on your understanding.
I had looked up the root words Sheen-Yaa-'Ayn and Faa-Raa-Qaf in every standard Arabic or Quran Dictionary at my disposal and after much reading and pondering, I have come to the conclusion that those who profess a Quran Alone stance are not innocent of this crime. A crime that is described as shirk, the unforgivable offense.
I agree. There is no such thing as Quran Alone. So professing such a meaningless stance is false. The great reading is a true description not a label. It is a book that must be studied in the context of the god's signs in us and around us and never "alone". It is like a map. It provides guidance but you still need to keep an eye on the road and on your speed, etc. Being a "Map Aloner" is meaningless nonsense and will never get you to any destination.
My conclusions
The ones who follow Quran Alone have decided to seperate/break off/distinguish themselves from the traditional muslims by banding together to follow their own way. The Quran only faction are just as guilty of 3032 as are the many factions of the traditional muslims. And much like the traditional muslims, the quran alone faction are further divided into many other sub-factions.Damon, since you studied it in depth, please share your knoweledge by translating 3032.
I don't think that there is such a thing as traditional peacemakers. It is a trait and a manner of acting. It is not a club that someone belongs to. You either do it or you don't.
Anytime a group of people decide to seperate/distinguish themselves from a group of others, go by a name/label different from the others, extend brotherhood to one another within the group as opposed to those outside of the group, and refuse unity with those outside of the group are officially practicing partisanship/sectarianism and are GUILTY of committing Idolatry.
Then you are guilty of this too by naming/labeling yourself Muslim instead of taking it as a universal concept.
I no longer call myself Quran Only Muslim, Quran Alone Muslim or Quranist or Quraniyy. I am simply a Muslim. Nothing more, nothing less. I also accept the terms Mumin (Believer) and Haneef (Monotheist/Pro-GOD) since they are also utilised in the quran favourably. Though I must say while stating this I only take GOD's Book as my source of guidance and knowledge in matters of Deen.
The names Muslim and Deen that you use are just as empty a name/label as all the other names/labels you objected to.
Sects are always started when there are enough people that are dissatisfied with the practices and views of the current group and wish to seperate themselves from that group and become their own ideal group. This is the essence of sectarianism.
No according to the great reading sects are always started when they separate their obligation and are happy with what they have NOT when they separate from a current group and are dissatisfied with its practices. It seems that you are implying that we should be "happy with practices and views of the current group". The great reading is saying the opposite of what you are saying. Do you think that the people of the cave were sectarians? Do you think that Abraham was a sectarian? Do you think Moses was a sectarian? do you think that Lot was a sectarian?
Dr. Manzoor 'ul Haque pointed out in his very informative article how Aaron (brother of Moses) deliberately allowed Bani Israel to make the golden idol in Moses' absence because he did not wish to arouse a situation that will create division among the people and yet neither GOD nor Moses chastised Aaron for doing this. This is a very strong indication of the seriousness of factionalism and divisionism in GOD's view.
Moses chastised Aaron and destroyed the idol. Aaron was wrong and his excuse was lame.
I ask you all who come across this thread to do two things (not for me. Do it for your own sake)...Study, and I mean really, really Study the root words Sheen-Yaa-'Ayn and Fa-Ra-Qaf inside and out. Study them in every standard Arabic Dictionary and Lexicon that you can get your hands on. Then read the above mentioned verses and all the other verses where derivatives of these words are used in the quran. Notice how the quran utilises these words. Notice what GOD says about divisionism/factionalism/sectarianism and how it is tantamount to Shirk!! Shirk, the one offense that GOD will Never Forgive.
I think that this is good advice. You should also study other root words such as "DYN" and "SLM".
Even the many different Masaajid (Mosques) that are abundantly scattered in many different parts of your average city here in the U.S. My city is not that big, yet I can tell you that there are definately 9 Mosques here that am 100% certain of. And these are just the Mosques that I know of. There could be others. These Mosques were NOT established for convenience of location. And neither do the individuals who prefer any one Mosque over the others frequent them on merit of location. No, they go to the one that they believe is more correctly inclined than the others are. That's just the bottom line.
My only question now that I haven't been able to answer is how to Effectively address this issue while guarding ourselves against the illegitimate practices of the muslim factions at the same time. I pondered on this thought as well and I must say that it looks extremely bleak. What to do, what to do? hypnoThe first step is to understand what the very concept of "muslim" means and be able to explain it and translate it. If you do then everything will become extremely clear.
Peace,
Ayman
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You can't say I was "ranting" and then acknowledge that "label" was one of many manifestations
Of course I can which is why I did it. It was a premature rant that assumed in the beginning of it that I was pushing the idea that adopting "labels" was the problem and to discard any given "label" was its solution. If you had bothered to carefully read my post instead of jumping to conclusions and adopting your confrontational post to me you will realize that I am happy with the term muslim because it is a Sectarian Mindset (as far as I am concerned) that is not happy with that description and hence requires some sort of adjective in front of it.
It should not be any of the manifestations, hence my comment.
But unfortunately it IS one of the manifestations of the mindset, hence MY comment.
As for the name "qur'aaniyyun", I know of "ahlul qur'aan" a long time ago before Sub7i Mansour appeared on the arena.
So have I, your point?
Yes Damon, I read the article. My problem is not just with the writter, but with your understanding of the article
And I'm sure that you are well aware that I have a problem with your understanding of it as well.
I think you could have simply referred to verse 6153 to understand what is meant by 3103.
I feel as though that the other verses that I brought up are just as pertinent to understanding 3103 as you believe 6153 to be. Are you now going to say that you are right and I am wrong? Or your understanding is better than my understanding? Is this what it's really boiling down to?
If mere unity is what God wants us to be, why sending messengers?
This goes to show that you did not sit down and try to understand the point of my post. I never said that we should be pushing for mere unity. Read the post again Samia and notice the question I asked at the end of it. How can we address the sectarian issue without becoming guilty of the sectarian practices and divisionism ourselves? If mere unity was my concern, I wouldn't ask this question nor would I want to address this issue. I would just adopt their ways and practices and do everything like them for the sake of mere unity.
As I mentioned before, just because "qur'aanism" is on the rise now, this does not make it a "new" sect.
I totally disagree with this understanding presented here. If you give it a name (qur'aanism), have a profile of a person that fits the description of "quraniyy" and establish yourselves as your own little "quraniyy" group, it IS a "new" sect. A "new" sect among "other" sects within islam. Quraniyyoon have the same "my way is better than yours" mentality as the other factions within Islam. Don't kid yourself.
It IS what God wants us to follow exclusively
The only thing you and I agree on so far. Thing is, WE are not the first people to have come to the conclusion that the traditional muslims are practicing ideas that are not consistent with the quranic message. The people who do not agree with the ways of the traditionists have been apart of this movement of islam since time immemorial. What THEY have done is address the issue from within this community of people and tried their level best to do this in the spirit of universal brotherhood. What WE are doing is addressing the issue from outside of this community of people and we are not doing it in the spirit of universal brotherhood. I understand that it is difficult to do this when so many of them will shun you the instant you tell them that you are not a hadith follower, but I have come to learn that not all of them will react this way. Some of them will lend you an ear. It is these people we can and should reach and hopefully these same people can do the same thing. But we do not have to do this in the name of yet another "group/faction" under the banner of islam.
Muhammad have distanced himself before from idol worshippers. Does that make him "happy with what he got"?
I don't know where you got your knowledge of Muhammad from, but I know that the messenger I speak of who received revelation from GOD was told in 6159 that he is to keep himself aloof from those who wish to be divided and seperated from the rest of the pack. Were he here today, I believe that he would have distanced himself from all those who practice sectarianism. How do you think he would react to you?
What I do not understand from the author is his focus on "how to pray" as the sign of unity!
Like you I also do not agree with his focus on the salat as the sign of unity, but unlike you I do not use that one issue as a reason to disregard the author or the rest of his understandings he presented in his article. You found one thing in my initial post (the use of "labels" and your very first response to me in this thread was not only condescending, but quite confrontational. This attitude will not get you very far in life.
I continued to read the article anyway and I simply took careful note of the points that I do agree with and simply ignored what I do not agree with. On top of that, I am more than willing to correspond with the author on those issues instead of merely shooting him and his article down. I am humble enough to realize that I do not know everything.
So, yes, I also have a problem with the author.
Yes Samia, that is quite apparent.
I also do not have any problem with any group that does not take hadeeth as divine "sayings". I have a big problem with anybody who takes hadeeths as divine. Does that make me muslim like them?
No, but it does make you sectarian like them if you are not willing to extend a hand of sisterhood and try to educate them on that issue, but instead cut yourself off from them, associate yourself with your own exclusive "quraniyyoon" group and take on the "My school of thought is better than your school of thought" mentality that all the other sects of islam have also taken on.
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Peace Ayman,
Dr. UlHaque doesn't even understand basic concepts such as the concept of "deen"/obligation and "muslim"/peacemaker. Thus he is unable to translate them or see their implications.
This is only an assertion on your part Ayman. Anybody in the world has just as much oppurtunity to say that you don't understand basic concepts such as Deen for the same reason you say so about Dr. Manzoor; namely that you don't agree with his understanding. I think you would present a more humble stance if you would say that you don't agree instead of saying a person doesn't know a certain thing. You never know when you may have to humble yourself and retract those kinds of statements. He simply has a different understanding than yours Ayman. You can't say that your right, he's wrong and you know more than him. GOD is the ONLY ONE who is flawless in knowledge and wisdom.
Since you have studied those passages then please share with us your translation of those passages based on your understanding.
Damon, since you studied it in depth, please share your knoweledge by translating 3032.
There is no need for me to give an independent translation since I have posted two translations with which I agree (Mohamed Ahmed and Ahmed Ali). I share their understanding of 3032.
I don't think that there is such a thing as traditional peacemakers. It is a trait and a manner of acting. It is not a club that someone belongs to. You either do it or you don't.
It is a "label" that is mutually understood between those who go by it as well as those who do not. I'm sure everyone here already knew that.
Then you are guilty of this too by naming/labeling yourself Muslim instead of taking it as a universal concept.
Then you must say that GOD is also guilty of this since HE is the one who gave me this description. He who does not submit to Him is labeled as Kafir. I did not come with this name. GOD DID!! And it is onbiously not a universal concept as you prematurely claim otherwise there would be no such thing as mushrik, kafir and zaleem, etc.
The names Muslim and Deen that you use are just as empty a name/label as all the other names/labels you objected to.
WOW!! You have to take that up with the quran and the one who revealed it. I guess both of these terms are used in the quran simply to fill up the empty spots of the pages.
No according to the great reading sects are always started when they separate their obligation and are happy with what they have NOT when they separate from a current group and are dissatisfied with its practices
This is total nonsense Ayman. How can they seperate their obligation when their is not already a core foundation (be it correct or incorrect) for them to seperate from? And who is upholding this core foundation? What, did they seperate from nothingness? In order to divide and seperate, their has to be something for you to divide and seperate from. That is only plain logic.
It seems that you are implying that we should be "happy with practices and views of the current group".
Ayman, I am telling you the same thing that I told Samia. Read my post before coming up with baseless accusations like that. You either did not read my entire posts in this thread or you wish to flip my words around to come to your conclusion that I am implying that you should be happy with the practices and views of the current group. I addressed the practices and views of the current group more than once in this thread and not one time did I say that we should be happy with them. I asked how many people here frequent other forums that are not quran alone forums or who here totally shun the traditional way of Salat. Do not try to use that and say That I am implying that you be happy with the practices of the current group because the current group has thousands of views and practices that I am not happy with and will not uphold.
The great reading is saying the opposite of what you are saying
No, the great reading agrees with me completely. I say that people here have established themselves as a group apart from the rest and are happy and rejoice in it. Now read 3032 and you will notice that it says that Kulluu Hizb/EACH party rejoices in what is with it. EACH GROUP Ayman. That includes the group who call themselves quraniyyoon.
Moses chastised Aaron and destroyed the idol.
Can you please give me the chapter and verse where he does so? It certainly isn't 2092-94 which are the verses that I am speaking of. Which verses are you speaking of where Moses chastised Aaron?
Aaron was wrong and his excuse was lame.
If Aaron was wrong and his excuse lame then GOD could have chastised him for it.....but he didn't!!!
I think that this is good advice. You should also study other root words such as "DYN" and "SLM".
Again with the unwarranted and premature assumptions. I can tell that you not only assume that I have not studied those root words, but I get the feeling that you think that you are lingusitically superior to me when it comes to the quran and it's language. is this your attitude towards me Ayman?
I end my post with another piece of advice for everyone here. My understanding of 5679 is that it is the purifed heart that GOD teaches. Arrogance is not becoming of a true muslim. It is usually the arrogant ones who I have learned don't even know half of what they think they know.
Peace be with you,
Damon. -
Can you please give me the chapter and verse where he does so? It certainly isn't 2092-94 which are the verses that I am speaking of. Which verses are you speaking of where Moses chastised Aaron?
If Aaron was wrong and his excuse lame then GOD could have chastised him for it.....but he didn't!!!
It actually is 2092-95.
This is from Ahmed Ali's translation, who you say you agree with
- But (Moses) said "O Aaron, when you saw that they had gone astray, what hindered you
- From coming after me? Did you not disobey my command?" (And Moses pulled him by the hair).
- "O son of my mother," (Aaron cried), do not pull me by my beard or my hair! I was really afraid you may say that I had created a rift among the children of Israel, and did not pay heed to your command."
Pretty clear chastisement. Moreover, it's interesting because these verses go to the heart of what you're saying. Moses asks Aaron why he did not stop the children of Israel from creating the idol and he responds, "I was really afraid you may say that I had created a rift among the children of Israel."
From the context, it is clear that Aaron's concerns were misinformed and misdirected. Coincidentally, if I am understanding you correctly, Aaron's concerns are similar to your concerns in this very thread.
