According to the quran, what is the lowest heaven?
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This has me confused. If the heaven and earth were split apart, as this verse appears to clearly say..
Verse clearly says "We split/ruptured them" (i.e. both together) not split one from another, for they were not formed yet.
al-Anbiya' (The Prophets) 2130
Awa lam yara allatheena kafaroo anna alssamawati waal-arda kanata ratqan fafataqnahuma wajaAAalna mina alma-i kulla shay-in hayyin afala yu/minoona
Literal Did those who disbelieved not see that the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, they (B) were joined, so We split/ruptured them (B) , and We made/created from the water every thing alive/living, so do they not believe?http//lifeboat.com/images/big.bang.jpg
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al-Anbiya' (The Prophets) 2130
Awa lam yara allatheena kafaroo anna alssamawati waal-arda kanata ratqan fafataqnahuma wajaAAalna mina alma-i kulla shay-in hayyin afala yu/minoona
Literal Did those who disbelieved not see that the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, they (B) were joined, so We split/ruptured them (B) , and We made/created from the water every thing alive/living, so do they not believe?
How is it possible for the disbelievers to witness Big Bang when Muhammad, as allegedly claimed, was the only one secretly inspired by his god to claim as such (and that too by the Muslims of today)? The verse may be (possibly) pointing to a space/location on ground/land (fil ard) where the "prophets (We)" (Abraham, Ishmail, Issac, Hagar, Sarah, etc.) ruptured it to gush out water for the living/thirsty. Besides, this story is mentioned in the Torah, Bible and as well as the ahadith. (Read the story of Abraham and his family).The image you provided was not available back then and it seems to be that of sun. Anyhow, the Big Bang is only a theory and Muslim apologists are the first to jump right into their ancient holy book to quickly claim any scientific findings evolved from modern science. Harun Yahya's website is full of such manipulated/twisted nonsense.
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Verse clearly says "We split/ruptured them" (i.e. both together) not split one from another, for they were not formed yet.
What does asunder mean? It means into separate things.
al-Anbiya' (The Prophets) 2130
Awa lam yara allatheena kafaroo anna alssamawati waal-arda kanata ratqan fafataqnahuma wajaAAalna mina alma-i kulla shay-in hayyin afala yu/minoona
Literal Did those who disbelieved not see that the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, they (B) were joined, so We split/ruptured them (B) , and We made/created from the water every thing alive/living, so do they not believe?What does it mean when it says they were joined and then split? Can you be specific? In fact, I would like you to be very specific if you can. Afterall, you're the guy who posted it, right? So you must have some very specific reason and understanding for doing so, that you can share in a clear and specific way.
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How is it possible for the disbelievers to witness Big Bang when Muhammad, as allegedly claimed, was the only one secretly inspired by his god to claim as such (and that too by the Muslims of today)? The verse may be (possibly) pointing to a space/location on ground/land (fil ard) where the "prophets (We)" (Abraham, Ishmail, Issac, Hagar, Sarah, etc.) ruptured it to gush out water for the living/thirsty. Besides, this story is mentioned in the Torah, Bible and as well as the ahadith. (Read the story of Abraham and his family).
The image you provided was not available back then and it seems to be that of sun. Anyhow, the Big Bang is only a theory and Muslim apologists are the first to jump right into their ancient holy book to quickly claim any scientific findings evolved from modern science. Harun Yahya's website is full of such manipulated/twisted nonsense.
Can you deny the latter part of the verse? No.
As for the first part, if it's like English, there is a difference between "see/recognize" and "witness/observe directly".
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Arnold, I see what you are saying. My next obvious question is if you are convinced then what are you doing in this forum? Are you attempting to prove to the Quranites that this book is not written by a God?
Sure.
I have to be honest with you. I see dozens of things in the book that keeps me going; impossible for a human to write. Yet I see problems as well like paranormals. I will reach a final verdict once I complete the whole book. The issues where word games are involved (heavens, jinns etc) and where there are too many unknowns in the equations, ain't stopping me.
Look, what you don't understand is that this book is completely useless unless Muslims admit that it is not the letter for letter dictation of God. Then, maybe I could reconsider it, and it could be considered along the same way as other religious texts are considered. But you don't understand. You will never get this admission from Muslims, because if the Quran isn't the letter for letter dictation of Allah, then there isn't much left to the religion after that. This is the way they have set it up, not me. And I feel that this is true. For while Muslims boast of the supposed superior logic and common sense behind it, the writings are actually spiritually bankrupt and conflict with the teachings of Jesus and other mystics in ways that the author (Muhammad) didn't understand. Muhammad appeared to be a man about a sense of justice that he felt, without any understanding of deeper meanings of spirituality and what past prophets were talking about.
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Have you read this thread? Please do so. Thank you. Sorry, not to be rude, but I hate repeating. Thanks.
Name Arnold
Posts 57 (57 per day)
Position Beginner/Inquirer
Date Registered Yesterday at 070654 AM
Last Active Today at 064107 PMReally, you hate repeating; with 57 posts/day?
Drama queens, saviors, rescuers, feigners and attention-seekers
http//www.bullyonline.org/workbully/attent.htmWhat does asunder mean? It means into separate things.
What does it mean when it says they were joined and then split? Can you be specific? In fact, I would like you to be very specific if you can. Afterall, you're the guy who posted it, right? So you must have some very specific reason and understanding for doing so, that you can share in a clear and specific way.
http//www.quran-islam.org/universe.htm
How is it possible for the disbelievers to witness Big Bang when Muhammad, as allegedly claimed, was the only one secretly inspired by his god to claim as such (and that too by the Muslims of today)? The verse may be (possibly) pointing to a space/location on ground/land (fil ard) where the "prophets (We)" (Abraham, Ishmail, Issac, Hagar, Sarah, etc.) ruptured it to gush out water for the living/thirsty. Besides, this story is mentioned in the Torah, Bible and as well as the ahadith. (Read the story of Abraham and his family).
The image you provided was not available back then and it seems to be that of sun. Anyhow, the Big Bang is only a theory and Muslim apologists are the first to jump right into their ancient holy book to quickly claim any scientific findings evolved from modern science. Harun Yahya's website is full of such manipulated/twisted nonsense.
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/expo/expo_021.htm
SURAH 21 Al-Anbiy?
- "(Out of their sheer ignorance some people take natural phenomena as deities or divinities. This is despite the fact the entire continuum of the universe has been created by Allah and remains fervently in action according to His given programme. At present various phenomena in the universe appear to them as functioning separately from one another, but) Do they not seriously understand that in the initial stages of creation all of them were one mass which We then parted, so that the various celestial bodies started floating in their own orbits (2133; 3640). (Take for example the planet earth. In its initial stages it separated from the original mass, just like a stone thrown out from a catapult ~ 7930.) Later (when the earth became ready to bear or produce living things) We started life from water. (All living things are created from a mixture of water ~ 2445. And over this fountain of life Allah has kept His own control ~ 117.)
It is strange that even after all this explanation, they do not believe that only Allah wields absolute sovereignty over everything in the universe."
peace
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http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/expo/expo_021.htm
It is strange that even after all this explanation, they do not believe that only Allah wields absolute sovereignty over everything in the universe."
And it is even stranger that the idiot who cherry-picked certain verses out of the Quran in that link above to disgrace and demean others didn't for once realize that his very own man-made god promises to keep his slaves and fellowship intact from straying away, yet he breaks his godly promise to shun the very slaves and fellowship as he so wills and subjects them to horrendous punishments akin to an evil. This man-made god is beyond recognition and himself does not know what the heck he is talking about. You see, even an evil person is merciful to his own family, relatives and close friends when it comes to forced submissions. -
Look, what you don't understand is that this book is completely useless unless Muslims admit that it is not the letter for letter dictation of God. Then, maybe I could reconsider it, and it could be considered along the same way as other religious texts are considered.
Hello Arnold,
That is the only reason I am attracted to study this book. This is the only book that claims to be from God. If I conclude that this is not a God's word then I dont need a human written book to guide my life. I am better off without a book.
the writings are actually spiritually bankrupt and conflict with the teachings of Jesus and other mystics in ways that the author (Muhammad) didn't understand.
A logical point If Quran is not in harmony with Bible and other mystics then that does not necessarily make Quran false.
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Thanks explorer for the warm welcome. welcome I'd like to know your opinion of my interpretation of heaven as the particle horizon (Boundary of the known universe).
Peaceful Mind, I just read about the particle horizon on the wikipedia.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_horizon
Interesting concept.
However it would not explain the 7 heavens.
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Peaceful Mind, I just read about the particle horizon on the wikipedia.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_horizon
Interesting concept.
However it would not explain the 7 heavens.
May be there are 7 universes after all.
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And it is even stranger that the idiot who cherry-picked certain verses out of the Quran in that link above to disgrace and demean others didn't for once realize that his very own man-made god promises to keep his slaves and fellowship intact from straying away, yet he breaks his godly promise to shun the very slaves and fellowship as he so wills and subjects them to horrendous punishments akin to an evil. This man-made god is beyond recognition and himself does not know what the heck he is talking about. You see, even an evil person is merciful to his own family, relatives and close friends when it comes to forced submissions.
You obviously do not know what the heck you are talking about. What's the mercy of God got to do with this topic? And of course, the Muslims twist the verses when it comes to miracles in the Quran, while the "peace-loving" and "honest" missionaries do not twist the verses to serve thier corrupted agenda. How pathetic.
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Look, what you don't understand is that this book is completely useless unless Muslims admit that it is not the letter for letter dictation of God.
Do you not think the Bible is letter for letter dictation of God? I believe the Christians I have known think so.
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However it would not explain the 7 heavens.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14637.0
You see, even an evil person is merciful to his own family, relatives and close friends when it comes to forced submissions.
Where you get definition of evil?
For all acts/thoughts can be justified in one?s mind; everyone has freedom to choose thier attitude or ?intent? to act (if permitted) on any ideas which pop into thier heads setting up thier own dominos of life continuously every moment...
http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7699005803996302162
peace
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Name Arnold
Posts 57 (57 per day)
Position Beginner/Inquirer
Date Registered Yesterday at 070654 AM
Last Active Today at 064107 PMReally, you hate repeating; with 57 posts/day?
That's right, because they aren't repetitions.
Drama queens, saviors, rescuers, feigners and attention-seekers
http//www.bullyonline.org/workbully/attent.htmAd hominem always seems to be the answer of choice when one doesn't have an answer to the point.
http//www.quran-islam.org/universe.htm
What a lying piece of propaganda tripe. Boy, if I had the time, I'll rip this thing piece by piece. Here's an example of what these lying little propagandists do.
The orbits of the heavenly bodies are mentioned in the verse
"and the sun and the moon, all travelling in orbits." 2133
Note that the last verse said "all" and not 'both' which indicates that the reference to the sun and the moon is symbolic, that is, of all other heavenly bodies that obey the same rules.
Well, gee, how about if we look at the whole verse? Look at how he cleverly snipped off the first part of the verse
021.033
YUSUFALI It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.
PICKTHAL And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.
SHAKIR And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres.and look at how even the translators had to add their own comments in parenthesis? But anyway, it sure looks a little different if we post the whole verse, but he purposefully did not do that. Why not? We both know why not.
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/expo/expo_021.htm
SURAH 21 Al-Anbiy?
- "(Out of their sheer ignorance some people take natural phenomena as deities or divinities. This is despite the fact the entire continuum of the universe has been created by Allah and remains fervently in action according to His given programme.
Complete assumption.
At present various phenomena in the universe appear to them as functioning separately from one another, but) Do they not seriously understand that in the initial stages of creation all of them were one mass which We then parted, so that the various celestial bodies started floating in their own orbits (2133; 3640).
He needs to include 2130. And 3640 talks about the sun and moon not being able to catch each other as if normally they could? Doesn't that sound like they are orbiting in the same general space to you? It sure as heck does to me. Seems pretty obvious. If we were in the 15th century, we would both be in agreement as to what this means. The only thing that has changed is modern science which cause him to reinterpret the Quran to make it fit. Do you call that objective truth seeking?
(Take for example the planet earth. In its initial stages it separated from the original mass, just like a stone thrown out from a catapult ~ 7930.) Later (when the earth became ready to bear or produce living things) We started life from water. (All living things are created from a mixture of water ~ 2445. And over this fountain of life Allah has kept His own control ~ 117.)
The Quran would have done a much better job if it said the earth was split from all of the other planets and stars. But it didn't. It split the earth and the heavens into two parts. One was the ground (the earth) and one was the sky (the heavens) as if the sky were a canopy of sorts, and actual physical entity of sorts. Surely the sky is different than the planets and stars that decorate the sky.
It is strange that even after all this explanation, they do not believe that only Allah wields absolute sovereignty over everything in the universe."
peace
It is strange that Muhammad merely took plainly observable physical laws and occurrences, and arbitrarily attributed them to his God. That's all the guy ever did in the whole Quran. He never really displayed any true wisdom, he just said a lot of "do they not see?" and hijacked all of the wonders of nature and attributed them to his particular God. Anybody can do that. The question is, why believe him?
peace
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Hello Arnold,
That is the only reason I am attracted to study this book. This is the only book that claims to be from God. If I conclude that this is not a God's word then I dont need a human written book to guide my life. I am better off without a book.
A logical point If Quran is not in harmony with Bible and other mystics then that does not necessarily make Quran false.Yes true, but it pretends to be the completion of such things, when in fact, it's clear that it misunderstands such things. If you read certain mystics, you would know exactly what I'm talking about. As far as biblical tradition goes, Moses was the law maker for the beginning. Jesus was supposed to be the next evolution. Jesus was clearly a mystic, regardless of the Son of God stuff. If you know mystics, you'll recognize these concepts all over Jesus' words. But most people don't know these things, so they have a very difficult time understanding Jesus. And I believe Muhammad didn't understand him, because Muhammad generally returned the religion from mystic spirituality back to strict rules and regulations, and in an even more regulated fashion than Moses.
For example, Islam is clearly political. Muhammad thought that the religion of God must also be a political ruler as well as a religious ruler. But when we look at Jesus, he clearly separated his kingdom from anything political. "Give to Caesar what is his and give to God what is his". And now Muhammad comes along and reverses that and makes religion very political. Another example is when a guy asked Jesus to settle an inheritance dispute between him and his brother and Jesus said he did not come to settle such disputes. What he really meant is that they are silly and one shouldn't be so focused on money anyway and instead focus on the heart and soul. Remember, Jesus gave himself very little wealth. He simply didn't care about it. If anything, it just got in his way and was extra baggage to carry around. But then Muhammad sees this in the New Testament (or hears about it), and mistakenly perceives it as an unmet task that Jesus didn't have time to meet, and therefore sets about to create an entire convoluted system for splitting up inheritance money. And it turned out to be a flawed system where in some situations, the fractions ended up adding up to more than 100%. In order to fix this, Muslims reinvented a few rules of math and shifted the position of the math paragraphs to shift the order in which things are added up. For example 16 / (5 + 3) = 8 But (16 / 5) + 3 yields a different answer. This is how they covered the errors.
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Do you not think the Bible is letter for letter dictation of God? I believe the Christians I have known think so.
No I don't. But I don't think any scripture needs to be. Words are just pointers that help us deal with concepts that are ultimately beyond words. They help get you there, but once you're there, they are no longer needed. The donkey one uses to get to the home is not the means by which you enter the home. One must dismount. So for me, I don't need any scriptures to be the letter for letter dictation of God as the exact words ultimately are not that important, but rather the spirit behind them is what is important. I don't know why some Christians insist upon letter for letter. The Bible is merely a collection of stories designed to retell events that happened between God and humans, and in these events and quotes are lessons to be had. Who needs anything more? Even if there are mistranslations here and there or oddities that conflict with modern science, it doesn't effect the larger message. The lessons are pretty clear.
Muslims claim that Jesus came with a book, so that he can look more like Muhammad, where the book becomes the emphasis, not the miracles (which Muhammad never did). But Jesus never came with any book at all, nor do he ever intend to write one. "The law shall be written on the hearts of men". The Gospels were merely a logical occurrence where people would of course want to retell the story of Jesus. This is why none of the books are called the Gospel according to Jesus. It's that way on purpose. Did you ever think of that? Jesus never came with any book, he merely came with the truth. The word Gospel, when used during Jesus' time, meant "truth". This word was then later used for the written books called The Gospel of...., which really means, the Truth of...... But never, never was there any mention of a book that Jesus brought with him. This was Muhammad's invention so that it can parallel what he was trying to do with the Quran.
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No I don't. But I don't think any scripture needs to be. Words are just pointers that help us deal with concepts that are ultimately beyond words. They help get you there, but once you're there, they are no longer needed. The donkey one uses to get to the home is not the means by which you enter the home. One must dismount. So for me, I don't need any scriptures to be the letter for letter dictation of God as the exact words ultimately are not that important, but rather the spirit behind them is what is important. I don't know why some Christians insist upon letter for letter. The Bible is merely a collection of stories designed to retell events that happened between God and humans, and in these events and quotes are lessons to be had. Who needs anything more? Even if there are mistranslations here and there or oddities that conflict with modern science, it doesn't effect the larger message. The lessons are pretty clear.
So you basically say that the Bible is not divine and has error in it.
Muslims claim that Jesus came with a book, so that he can look more like Muhammad,
Jesus came with a book to teach you the wisdom and oneness of God. Alas, you have corrupted it.
where the book becomes the emphasis, not the miracles (which Muhammad never did).
Muhammed did miracles.
But Jesus never came with any book at all, nor do he ever intend to write one.
That's you own subjective distorted opinion.
"The law shall be written on the hearts of men".
You mean the Old Testament.
The Gospels were merely a logical occurrence where people would of course want to retell the story of Jesus. This is why none of the books are called the Gospel according to Jesus. It's that way on purpose. Did you ever think of that? Jesus never came with any book, he merely came with the truth. The word Gospel, when used during Jesus' time, meant "truth". This word was then later used for the written books called The Gospel of...., which really means, the Truth of...... But never, never was there any mention of a book that Jesus brought with him. This was Muhammad's invention so that it can parallel what he was trying to do with the Quran.
Muhammed did not come up with inventions. The Quran is the word of God. Grow up and stop clutching at staws.
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Well, gee, how about if we look at the whole verse? Look at how he cleverly snipped off the first part of the verse
021.033
YUSUFALI It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.
PICKTHAL And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.
SHAKIR And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres.and look at how even the translators had to add their own comments in parenthesis? But anyway, it sure looks a little different if we post the whole verse, but he purposefully did not do that. Why not? We both know why not.
The guy's interpretation is correct. Obviously night and day do not travel, they are signs of the sun and the moon, which, among other objects, orbit in thier rounded course.
Anyway, I believe I have already explained the heaven issue.