Sun orbits the galaxy?
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You know the verses from the Quran, do I really need to post them?. Why do you think the Quran is talking about the sun orbiting the galaxy, but not the moon orbiting the galaxy as well? Why does it have to mention that Allah prevents one orbit from outstripping the other as if they could possibly outstrip each other without Allah preventing this?
Because "Allah" isn't like the stereotypical Christian white man with a beard who stirs the planets with his hands, "Allah" refers to a passive entity, whose rules are implemented by will alone.
Please refute the verse, because clearly, as said above, the Sun doesn't collide with the moon, the night doesn't outstrip the day, and they all swim in their own orbits, therefore the verse is correct - it is only when you use your own preconceptions of "Allah" and imagine "Allah" moving the planets with his "hand" that it turns into rubbish.
Logic is rare in this world...
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Logic is rare in this world...
True, especially of him. He is here with agenda, not seeking the truth.
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You know the verses from the Quran, do I really need to post them?. Why do you think the Quran is talking about the sun orbiting the galaxy, but not the moon orbiting the galaxy as well? Why does it have to mention that Allah prevents one orbit from outstripping the other as if they could possibly outstrip each other without Allah preventing this?
Because "Allah" isn't like the stereotypical Christian white man with a beard who stirs the planets with his hands, "Allah" refers to a passive entity, whose rules are implemented by will alone.
Bashing Christianity does not answer my question. In fact, usually when a Muslim runs out of answers, they turn to bash the Bible. So what you are really telling mne, is that you can't answer the point.
Please refute the verse, because clearly, as said above, the Sun doesn't collide with the moon, the night doesn't outstrip the day, and they all swim in their own orbits, therefore the verse is correct - it is only when you use your own preconceptions of "Allah" and imagine "Allah" moving the planets with his "hand" that it turns into rubbish.
Logic is rare in this world...
OK, so let's use some logic, right? ;D
036.040
YUSUFALI It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law).
PICKTHAL It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
SHAKIR Neither is it allowable to the sun that it should overtake the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day; and all float on in a sphere.Would you bother to mention that something or someone prevents the sun and moon from outstripping each other or overtaking each other? I wouldn't because it's clearly impossible for the two the overtake each other as they both orbit two entirely different things. Therefore, the statement would be rather pointless or meaningless as the fact that the two can't overtake each other goes without saying. Therefore, the statement of Allah preventing this becomes fairly meaningless as it is unnecessary to mention because it is a given. But, if it is perceived that they orbit the same thing (earth), then it would be possible for one to overtake the other. Therefore, telling us that Allah prevents this from happening, even though it could happen, suddenly becomes a very important and meaningful statement.
But here again is the real question that everybody refuses to answer. If it says the sun orbits the galaxy, then why shouldn't we think it means the moon orbiting the galaxy as well?
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OK, so let's use some logic, right?
Finally...
036.040
YUSUFALI It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law).
PICKTHAL It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
SHAKIR Neither is it allowable to the sun that it should overtake the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day; and all float on in a sphere.Would you bother to mention that something or someone prevents the sun and moon from outstripping each other or overtaking each other? I wouldn't because it's clearly impossible for the two the overtake each other as they both orbit two entirely different things. Therefore, the statement would be rather pointless or meaningless as the fact that the two can't overtake each other goes without saying. Therefore, the statement of Allah preventing this becomes fairly meaningless as it is unnecessary to mention because it is a given. But, if it is perceived that they orbit the same thing (earth), then it would be possible for one to overtake the other. Therefore, telling us that Allah prevents this from happening, even though it could happen, suddenly becomes a very important and meaningful statement.
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Firstly it mentions everything being in control and in precise placements...leading to-
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It is not meaningless, as what comes out of it is "It is not permitted for the sun to overtake the moon's orbit etc" = behind apparent chaos/apparent order there is perfect control and a reason for everything.
But here again is the real question that everybody refuses to answer. If it says the sun orbits the galaxy, then why shouldn't we think it means the moon orbiting the galaxy as well?
Irrelevant question when the verse explains itself perfectly without the need for bringing in what really orbits a galaxy...
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Finally...
- Firstly it mentions everything being in control and in precise placements...leading to-
Where? Take the words out of that verse and show me? This is just your own projection. It's not there. All it says is that Allah prevents one from catching up to the other. This is a very irrelevent statement if the quran meant that the sun orbits the galaxy and the moon orbits the earth
- It is not meaningless, as what comes out of it is "It is not permitted for the sun to overtake the moon's orbit etc" = behind apparent chaos/apparent order there is perfect control and a reason for everything.
You don't need order to prevent the sun and moon from catching up to each other when their orbits aren't even remotely related in the least. You need to maintain order if the two were orbiting in the same general space
Irrelevant question when the verse explains itself perfectly without the need for bringing in what really orbits a galaxy...
That is not an irrelevant question and you know it isn't. I am pointing out the cheating that goes on in the logic. If science says something, then you automatically assume that this is what the Quran is saying. That is very faulty and subjective and counter to true, objective reasoning. Are you familiar with the term "self fulfilling prophecy"? Please research it because you'll find that you are more familiar with it than you realize because you are practicing it right now.
So therefore, since you won't answer the question, I'll answer it for you. Why should we believe that the Quran is talking about the sun orbiting the galaxy but not talking about the moon orbiting the galaxy? Because science says this isn't true. But science should have nothing to do with the meaing of the words of the Quran or what they are telling us. But muslims cheat and make the Quran agree with science. If science says xyz, then surely that's what the quran meant. This is extremely faulty.
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Because "Allah" isn't like the stereotypical Christian white man with a beard who stirs the planets with his hands, "Allah" refers to a passive entity, whose rules are implemented by will alone.
Bashing Christianity does not answer my question. In fact, usually when a Muslim runs out of answers, they turn to bash the Bible. So what you are really telling mne, is that you can't answer the point.
OK, so let's use some logic, right? ;D
036.040
YUSUFALI It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law).
PICKTHAL It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
SHAKIR Neither is it allowable to the sun that it should overtake the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day; and all float on in a sphere.Would you bother to mention that something or someone prevents the sun and moon from outstripping each other or overtaking each other? I wouldn't because it's clearly impossible for the two the overtake each other as they both orbit two entirely different things. Therefore, the statement would be rather pointless or meaningless as the fact that the two can't overtake each other goes without saying. Therefore, the statement of Allah preventing this becomes fairly meaningless as it is unnecessary to mention because it is a given. But, if it is perceived that they orbit the same thing (earth), then it would be possible for one to overtake the other. Therefore, telling us that Allah prevents this from happening, even though it could happen, suddenly becomes a very important and meaningful statement.
But here again is the real question that everybody refuses to answer. If it says the sun orbits the galaxy, then why shouldn't we think it means the moon orbiting the galaxy as well?
If you read, I said "stereotypical" quite clearly. Many Christans don't see God as a man in the sky, and it's good for them. Also, please read the last part of that sentence instead of nitpicking.
OK, so let's use some logic, right? Grin
036.040
YUSUFALI It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law).
PICKTHAL It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
SHAKIR Neither is it allowable to the sun that it should overtake the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day; and all float on in a sphere.Would you bother to mention that something or someone prevents the sun and moon from outstripping each other or overtaking each other? I wouldn't because it's clearly impossible for the two the overtake each other as they both orbit two entirely different things. Therefore, the statement would be rather pointless or meaningless as the fact that the two can't overtake each other goes without saying. Therefore, the statement of Allah preventing this becomes fairly meaningless as it is unnecessary to mention because it is a given. But, if it is perceived that they orbit the same thing (earth), then it would be possible for one to overtake the other. Therefore, telling us that Allah prevents this from happening, even though it could happen, suddenly becomes a very important and meaningful statement.
But here again is the real question that everybody refuses to answer. If it says the sun orbits the galaxy, then why shouldn't we think it means the moon orbiting the galaxy as well?
Finally, some logic
Now, the verse denotes a very simple, and self-evident concept. The Sun is not permitted, i.e. it is impossible, for it to "overtake" the Moon, because each runs on its own computed path. Nothing more than that. It does not say "God holds them apart", this comes from the (Biblical?) anthropomorphic concept of God. It says simply enough, that the laws of God just don't allow for it to happen.
The Quran is a book full of tautology, it's a common theme. What appears to us as tautology today would have been at the forefront of science thousands of years ago. It is tautological that everything is made of different, discrete, substances. That didn't stop the Greeks from believing it was a mixture of earth, fire, air and water.
If it is perceived that they orbit the same thing (earth) then it would be possible for one to overtake the other, MEANING THAT VERSE WOULD BE FALSE. The reason being, that verse states they will never overtake each other. Comprende? So in reality, when one contemplates this verse, it makes the case only against geocentrism. To look for allegorical meaning in a clear, tautological verse is just idiotic, sorry to say. If a Quranic verse says "water can only be wet", it is not saying "water can be un-wet", it is saying "water can only be wet". Likewise. People whose vocal processor runs faster by degrees of magnitude than their brain's processor generally fall into that trap.
But here again is the real question that everybody refuses to answer. If it says the sun orbits the galaxy, then why shouldn't we think it means the moon orbiting the galaxy as well?
In reality, the entire universe revolves around the Earth, every 24 hours. In reality, the solar system orbits around the Earth every 365 days. In reality, the moon orbits the galaxy as well. Some people struggle with the idea of no absolute space, but it happens. Generally, these are the same people whose vocal chords run at higher frequencies. Ahem.
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Where? Take the words out of that verse and show me? This is just your own projection. It's not there. All it says is that Allah prevents one from catching up to the other. This is a very irrelevent statement if the quran meant that the sun orbits the galaxy and the moon orbits the earth
You don't need order to prevent the sun and moon from catching up to each other when their orbits aren't even remotely related in the least. You need to maintain order if the two were orbiting in the same general space
That is not an irrelevant question and you know it isn't. I am pointing out the cheating that goes on in the logic. If science says something, then you automatically assume that this is what the Quran is saying. That is very faulty and subjective and counter to true, objective reasoning. Are you familiar with the term "self fulfilling prophecy"? Please research it because you'll find that you are more familiar with it than you realize because you are practicing it right now.
So therefore, since you won't answer the question, I'll answer it for you. Why should we believe that the Quran is talking about the sun orbiting the galaxy but not talking about the moon orbiting the galaxy? Because science says this isn't true. But science should have nothing to do with the meaing of the words of the Quran or what they are telling us. But muslims cheat and make the Quran agree with science. If science says xyz, then surely that's what the quran meant. This is extremely faulty.
Some humans have issues with reverse-deriving the concept of God from the Quran, instead of fitting the Quran to their preconceptions and claiming it is false, because their preconceptions are false.
All it says is that Allah prevents one from catching up to the other.
Where? Take the words out of that verse and show me? This is just your own projection. It's not there. All it says is that they will never catch one another and they follow certain paths. Please note that there is only a passive implication in this verse, you have to bring evidence of active (i.e. expending energy) involvement. Good luck.
You don't need order to prevent the sun and moon from catching up to each other when their orbits aren't even remotely related in the least. You need to maintain order if the two were orbiting in the same general space
Anthropomorphism is a deep hole. Your problem is not with the Quran, but your own brain for failing you in terms of logical thinking, and by attempting to apply its own delusions to reality. Your concept of God has no basis in the Quran and God rejects anthropomorphism repeatedly. God, again, is completely passive. This is summed up in 2117. Be, and it is, it just doesn't get simpler than that. God's decree is absolute, and God doesn't need to expend any energy to keep order, as the simple laws of physics show here.
That is not an irrelevant question and you know it isn't. I am pointing out the cheating that goes on in the logic. If science says something, then you automatically assume that this is what the Quran is saying. That is very faulty and subjective and counter to true, objective reasoning. Are you familiar with the term "self fulfilling prophecy"? Please research it because you'll find that you are more familiar with it than you realize because you are practicing it right now.
Are you familiar with the term "hypocrisy"? Please research it because you'll find that you are more familiar with it than you realize because you were practicing it, hence me being able to copy and paste your own arguments against you.
So therefore, since you won't answer the question, I'll answer it for you. Why should we believe that the Quran is talking about the sun orbiting the galaxy but not talking about the moon orbiting the galaxy? Because science says this isn't true. But science should have nothing to do with the meaing of the words of the Quran or what they are telling us. But muslims cheat and make the Quran agree with science. If science says xyz, then surely that's what the quran meant. This is extremely faulty.
Incorrect. The Quran states each of those follows its decreed path and nothing more. If the moon orbits the galaxy, then the moon orbits the galaxy.
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If you read, I said "stereotypical" quite clearly. Many Christans don't see God as a man in the sky, and it's good for them.
None of them think about God that way. You're thinking of Zeus.
Also, please read the last part of that sentence instead of nitpicking.
Finally, some logic )
Now, the verse denotes a very simple, and self-evident concept. The Sun is not permitted, i.e. it is impossible, for it to "overtake" the Moon, because each runs on its own computed path. Nothing more than that.
It's an insignificant statement if it meant the sun orbits the galaxy and the moon orbits the earth. A given. A wasted sentence that need not even be mentioned But it becomes a very significant if it's talking about the sun and moon both orbiting the earth. Then, it would clearly be a sign of allah's continuing power that continually prevents the two from catching up to each other.
It does not say "God holds them apart", this comes from the (Biblical?) anthropomorphic concept of God. It says simply enough, that the laws of God just don't allow for it to happen.
The Quran is a book full of tautology, it's a common theme.
Tautology
2) Logic An empty or vacuous statement composed of simpler statements in a fashion that makes it logically true whether the simpler statements are factually true or false; for example, the statement Either it will rain tomorrow or it will not rain tomorrow.The Quran is a tautology????
What appears to us as tautology today would have been at the forefront of science thousands of years ago.
Yeah? So what?
It is tautological that everything is made of different, discrete, substances. That didn't stop the Greeks from believing it was a mixture of earth, fire, air and water.
I don't believe that tautology is the word you want to use here.
If it is perceived that they orbit the same thing (earth) then it would be possible for one to overtake the other, MEANING THAT VERSE WOULD BE FALSE.
No it wouldn't because it meant that the two CAN overtake each other, but that Allah prevents this. you conveniently forgot to mention the "Allah prevents this" part of the equation. Why?
The reason being, that verse states they will never overtake each other. Comprende?
Yes, because Allah's power prevent this, and otherwise, they might overtake each other, which is why the issue was even mentioned at all. Comprende?
So in reality, when one contemplates this verse, it makes the case only against geocentrism. To look for allegorical meaning in a clear, tautological verse is just idiotic, sorry to say.
It would appear that you are not even using the word tautology correctly. And who's looking for an allegory? Where did i ever say that? Why are you now throwing allegory into the equation?
If a Quranic verse says "water can only be wet", it is not saying "water can be un-wet", it is saying "water can only be wet". Likewise. People whose vocal processor runs faster by degrees of magnitude than their brain's processor generally fall into that trap.
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036040 Khan It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all float, each in an orbit.
036040 Maulana Neither is it for the sun to overtake the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day. And all float on in an orbit.
036040 Pickthal It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
036040 Rashad The sun is never to catch up with the moon - the night and the day never deviate - each of them is floating in its own orbit.
036040 Sarwar how the sun is not supposed to catch-up with the moon, nor is the night to precede the day. All of them are to float in a certain orbit;
036040 Shakir Neither is it allowable to the sun that it should overtake the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day; and all float on in a sphere.
036040 Sherali It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day. All of them float smoothly in an orbit.
036040 Yusufali It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law).
Here, it mentions the moon cannot catch up with the sun, just as the night cannot catch up with the day. Do you see here how the sun's and moon's movement is also related to night and day? Moon doesn't catch the sun, and night never catches the day. Is an orbit around the galaxy related to night and day in the least? So why do we find the concepts of night and day and the sun's and moon's orbit right next to each other in the same exact verse? Come on, it's obvious.
In reality, the entire universe revolves around the Earth, every 24 hours.
That's not what I've heard. How can the sun revolve around the earth in 24 hours? Are you just playing a little game of relativity between the earth spinning or everything else moving?
In reality, the solar system orbits around the Earth every 365 days.
So everything orbits the earth in 24 hours and a subset of the everything (the solar system) orbits the earth in 356 days?
In reality, the moon orbits the galaxy as well. Some people struggle with the idea of no absolute space, but it happens. Generally, these are the same people whose vocal chords run at higher frequencies. Ahem.
Nope. Nice try with the grey area diversion, but it didn't work. This relativity stuff is nothing but a poor mask or excuse. Go on a space shuttle and tell me how everything is orbiting the earth, but the earth is not spinning. Show me the sun doing on full revolution around the earth in 24 hours from the perspective of a space shuttle. So this relativity excuse is overused and useless. So how can the universe do a full revolutuion around the earth in 24 hours when the sun can't even do that?
I've seen this before. When the questions get tough, one technique is to make the issue as complex, grey and confusing as possible so that it gets so confusing, the issue goes away. I've seen this technique before. It doesn't work.
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This is just your own projection. It's not there.
Ironically, your whole argument is based on projecting your own view onto the verses
Can anybody tell us why we are supposed to think that the Quran tells us the sun orbits the galaxy and not the earth? Why should we think that in the case of the moon, it's telling us about an orbit around the earth, but in the case of the sun, it's telling us about an orbit around the galaxy? Why shouldn't we think it's also telling us that the moon orbits the galaxy as well? Why shouldn't we think it's telling us that the sun orbits the earth as well?
Why? You already said it... because it's not there.
http//free-islam.com/extraimages/slamdunk.gif
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Now you just need the O0 and the high tops Wakas.
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Some humans have issues with reverse-deriving the concept of God from the Quran, instead of fitting the Quran to their preconceptions and claiming it is false, because their preconceptions are false.
There is no correct system of logic in the world, be that religious or non religious, that says when searching for the truth, one must first assume something is true and THEN go out and find truths that match the thing. That is simply backwards from any reasoning perspective. It is the logical fallacy of "self fulfilling prophecy". It means that one merely sees things the way they want to see or or sees them in a way that will confirm their pre-existing notions rather than attempting to see them for what they really are, with no personal desires or considerations involved. Hasn't anybody ever taught you the meaning of objective reasoning? It would appear not.
Where? Take the words out of that verse and show me? This is just your own projection. It's not there.
All it says is that they will never catch one another and they follow certain paths.
And, in the same exact verse, right next to it, it says the night will never catch the day either. So do you think it's possible that the sun's and moon's orbit is being related to the day and night?
Please note that there is only a passive implication in this verse, you have to bring evidence of active (i.e. expending energy) involvement. Good luck.
What does passive have yo do with anything?
Anthropomorphism is a deep hole. Your problem is not with the Quran, but your own brain for failing you in terms of logical thinking, and by attempting to apply its own delusions to reality
I am using standard, accepted, objective logic. It is YOU who breach the rules of logic for your own personal whims.
Your concept of God has no basis in the Quran
Good. Maybe I'm doing something right.
and God rejects anthropomorphism repeatedly.
You don't know that. All you know is what the Quran tells you.
God, again, is completely passive. This is summed up in 2117. Be, and it is, it just doesn't get simpler than that. God's decree is absolute, and God doesn't need to expend any energy to keep order, as the simple laws of physics show here.
Right, so God merely makes the sun and moon orbit at the right speed so that they don't catch up with each other. So your answer did nothing to answer the two of them orbiting the earth.
Are you familiar with the term "hypocrisy"? Please research it because you'll find that you are more familiar with it than you realize because you were practicing it, hence me being able to copy and paste your own arguments against you.
But you haven't used them against me. You simply didn't think things through very thoroughly.
Incorrect. The Quran states each of those follows its decreed path and nothing more. If the moon orbits the galaxy, then the moon orbits the galaxy.
Would you be ok with that if the Quran said the moon orbits the galaxy?
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None of them think about God that way. You're thinking of Zeus.
It's an insignificant statement if it meant the sun orbits the galaxy and the moon orbits the earth. A given. A wasted sentence that need not even be mentioned But it becomes a very significant if it's talking about the sun and moon both orbiting the earth. Then, it would clearly be a sign of allah's continuing power that continually prevents the two from catching up to each other.
It does not say "God holds them apart", this comes from the (Biblical?) anthropomorphic concept of God. It says simply enough, that the laws of God just don't allow for it to happen.
The Quran is a book full of tautology, it's a common theme.
Tautology
2) Logic An empty or vacuous statement composed of simpler statements in a fashion that makes it logically true whether the simpler statements are factually true or false; for example, the statement Either it will rain tomorrow or it will not rain tomorrow.The Quran is a tautology????
Yeah? So what?
I don't believe that tautology is the word you want to use here.
No it wouldn't because it meant that the two CAN overtake each other, but that Allah prevents this. you conveniently forgot to mention the "Allah prevents this" part of the equation. Why?
Yes, because Allah's power prevent this, and otherwise, they might overtake each other, which is why the issue was even mentioned at all. Comprende?
It would appear that you are not even using the word tautology correctly. And who's looking for an allegory? Where did i ever say that? Why are you now throwing allegory into the equation?
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036040 Khan It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all float, each in an orbit.
036040 Maulana Neither is it for the sun to overtake the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day. And all float on in an orbit.
036040 Pickthal It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
036040 Rashad The sun is never to catch up with the moon - the night and the day never deviate - each of them is floating in its own orbit.
036040 Sarwar how the sun is not supposed to catch-up with the moon, nor is the night to precede the day. All of them are to float in a certain orbit;
036040 Shakir Neither is it allowable to the sun that it should overtake the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day; and all float on in a sphere.
036040 Sherali It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day. All of them float smoothly in an orbit.
036040 Yusufali It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law).
Here, it mentions the moon cannot catch up with the sun, just as the night cannot catch up with the day. Do you see here how the sun's and moon's movement is also related to night and day? Moon doesn't catch the sun, and night never catches the day. Is an orbit around the galaxy related to night and day in the least? So why do we find the concepts of night and day and the sun's and moon's orbit right next to each other in the same exact verse? Come on, it's obvious.
That's not what I've heard. How can the sun revolve around the earth in 24 hours? Are you just playing a little game of relativity between the earth spinning or everything else moving?
So everything orbits the earth in 24 hours and a subset of the everything (the solar system) orbits the earth in 356 days?
Nope. Nice try with the grey area diversion, but it didn't work. This relativity stuff is nothing but a poor mask or excuse. Go on a space shuttle and tell me how everything is orbiting the earth, but the earth is not spinning. Show me the sun doing on full revolution around the earth in 24 hours from the perspective of a space shuttle. So this relativity excuse is overused and useless. So how can the universe do a full revolutuion around the earth in 24 hours when the sun can't even do that?
I've seen this before. When the questions get tough, one technique is to make the issue as complex, grey and confusing as possible so that it gets so confusing, the issue goes away. I've seen this technique before. It doesn't work.
http//webexhibits.org/colorart/i/michelangelo-creation-adam-.jpg
http//free-islam.com/extraimages/slamdunk.gif
;D
It's an insignificant statement if it meant the sun orbits the galaxy and the moon orbits the earth. A given. A wasted sentence that need not even be mentioned But it becomes a very significant if it's talking about the sun and moon both orbiting the earth. Then, it would clearly be a sign of allah's continuing power that continually prevents the two from catching up to each other.
Insignificant, really?
This is what you, yourself, acknowledged
Yeah? So what?
So, to people who studied the Quran objectively in the days of old, they would have came to the same conclusion.
But it becomes a very significant if it's talking about the sun and moon both orbiting the earth. Then, it would clearly be a sign of allah's continuing power that continually prevents the two from catching up to each other.
Apparently, you are oblivious to reality which is described by the Quran as "Be and it is" meaning there is no need for "continuing power that continually prevents... blah blah blah". In your obliviousness, you also failed to understand what "passive" meant.
The Quran is a tautology????
Book full of tautology. Please read your own definition. Your cherry picking of definitions is also pathetic.
http//www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=define%3Atautology&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
I don't believe that tautology is the word you want to use here.
Your belief and reality are literally worlds apart.
No it wouldn't because it meant that the two CAN overtake each other, but that Allah prevents this. you conveniently forgot to mention the "Allah prevents this" part of the equation. Why?
Because it isn't there.
Yes, because Allah's power prevent this, and otherwise, they might overtake each other, which is why the issue was even mentioned at all. Comprende?
What the hell are you talking about? "otherwise, they might overtake each other,"? The issue was mentioned, because a while back, it was not so much of a tautology as the forefront of science. Again, you apply your own ridiculous notions to it, and fail to grasp why I don't even mention the "Allah prevents this" part of the equation.
Here, it mentions the moon cannot catch up with the sun, just as the night cannot catch up with the day. Do you see here how the sun's and moon's movement is also related to night and day? Moon doesn't catch the sun, and night never catches the day. Is an orbit around the galaxy related to night and day in the least? So why do we find the concepts of night and day and the sun's and moon's orbit right next to each other in the same exact verse? Come on, it's obvious.
Exactly. The moon and sun never catch each other out, and they follow their predefined courses. As for their orbits, it can not mean Earth because as the verse itself states, it is impossible for the day to overtake night, sun to overtake moon, meaning that your reversed definition which allows for the possibility is false. There is no room for your definition in this verse, simple as that. In surah 51, many things are mentioned side by side in the same sentence (though not ayah). 517 even states that there are many paths through the heaven. It isn't obvious, it's false. If the Quran wished to state that the Sun orbited around the Earth and so did the Moon, both through their geodesics, then it would have had active denial (God prevents), not passive denial (it is not allowed).
That's not what I've heard. How can the sun revolve around the earth in 24 hours? Are you just playing a little game of relativity between the earth spinning or everything else moving?
Well, whoever you heard has no grasp of reality. Of course the sun can revolve around the Earth in 24 hours, just not through the geodesic. And yes, it's relative. You caught on fast.
So everything orbits the earth in 24 hours and a subset of the everything (the solar system) orbits the earth in 356 days?
Please find your local neurosurgeon and donate your brain to science... You just cannot be serious. To be blunt, everything orbits the Earth, relative to the Earth, in 24 hours. The solar system orbits the Earth, relative to the Earth, in 365 days, as does everything else. It depends on your origin, reference point, etc, etc. The reference point for 24 hours is the centre of the Earth's rotating axis, as for 365 days, I'd imagine somewhere else...
I've seen this before. When the questions get tough, one technique is to make the issue as complex, grey and confusing as possible so that it gets so confusing, the issue goes away. I've seen this technique before. It doesn't work.
If you are being confused by things my young nephew could understand, I feel for you.
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There is no correct system of logic in the world, be that religious or non religious, that says when searching for the truth, one must first assume something is true and THEN go out and find truths that match the thing. That is simply backwards from any reasoning perspective. It is the logical fallacy of "self fulfilling prophecy". It means that one merely sees things the way they want to see or or sees them in a way that will confirm their pre-existing notions rather than attempting to see them for what they really are, with no personal desires or considerations involved. Hasn't anybody ever taught you the meaning of objective reasoning? It would appear not.
And, in the same exact verse, right next to it, it says the night will never catch the day either. So do you think it's possible that the sun's and moon's orbit is being related to the day and night?
What does passive have yo do with anything?
I am using standard, accepted, objective logic. It is YOU who breach the rules of logic for your own personal whims.
Good. Maybe I'm doing something right.
You don't know that. All you know is what the Quran tells you.
Right, so God merely makes the sun and moon orbit at the right speed so that they don't catch up with each other. So your answer did nothing to answer the two of them orbiting the earth.
But you haven't used them against me. You simply didn't think things through very thoroughly.
Would you be ok with that if the Quran said the moon orbits the galaxy?
To be objective means to derive everything realistically, from reality. If the Quran allows for a complete description of reality in it then you simply cannot argue against it. THAT would be backwards thinking. If it allows it, and the theme of the book regards it, then there is a pretty high chance that the interpretation of the statement pertaining to "it" is correct, namely 100%.
And, in the same exact verse, right next to it, it says the night will never catch the day either. So do you think it's possible that the sun's and moon's orbit is being related to the day and night?
Of course it is. The thing is, these never overlap, because it isn't part of their courses to do so. It is physically impossible for day to overlap night, by the very essence of reality. No active deity is needed to hold the Earth while slowing down the Sun with the other hand, so it doesn't overtake the Moon.
What does passive have yo do with anything?
Pretty much everything, when we talk about God. Active = expending energy to do something, Passive = "Be and it is".
I am using standard, accepted, objective logic. It is YOU who breach the rules of logic for your own personal whims.
If we used your logic, we would still be burning scientists for telling the truth.
Good. Maybe I'm doing something right.
I don't know about your real concept of God, I am talking about your pathetically erroneous understanding of "Allah" in the Quran. There, I used separate words, hopefully you may understand if I use "Allah" instead of "God".
You don't know that. All you know is what the Quran tells you.
I posted the verses in another thread. 17111, 123-4, there are many others but it requires a detailed study of the Quran (though not time consuming). Those are the most obvious verses pointing towards it. Please note that I use "God" synonymously with "Allah", and by those terms, I mean "the entity, set of laws, or any other construct that created or resulted in the creation of human beings and the present universe". Our creator, whether that is a man in the sky, or the laws of physics themselves.
Right, so God merely makes the sun and moon orbit at the right speed so that they don't catch up with each other. So your answer did nothing to answer the two of them orbiting the earth.
The verse states that it is impossible for such a scenario to happen, meaning it rules out the possibility. God does things in absolute terms. Regardless, as the theme of my posts, and my understanding of Quran goes, this all relates to God and his passiveness.
But you haven't used them against me. You simply didn't think things through very thoroughly.
Please show where it says "allah prevents" or rather, whatever I quoted you saying. This was a completely valid usage, I believe I placed that question in italics because it was a verbatim copy from your post. There is no "thinking things through very thoroughly", spits, there is a simple request for evidence of active (i.e. expending energy) involvement (though the request itself is actually for you to prove what I quoted you saying).
Would you be ok with that if the Quran said the moon orbits the galaxy?
It doesn't. The moon does follow a predefined path through the galaxy.
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So, to people who studied the Quran objectively in the days of old, they would have came to the same conclusion.
Ummm, people of old DID think the sun orbited the earth, and we find this concept in the hadiths as well. The prophet himself was supposed to have spoken about the sun going somewhere every night and the returning every day and one day, it will return from the opposite direction. If that's not talking about a sun orbiting the earth, I don't know what is.
Apparently, you are oblivious to reality which is described by the Quran as "Be and it is" meaning there is no need for "continuing power that continually prevents... blah blah blah". In your obliviousness, you also failed to understand what "passive" meant.
No, I understood it, and I said that Allah set the orbits of the earth and moon at the right speed so that one wouldn't catch the other. AND I mentioned the clear relation ion the verse between the sun and moon and night and day.
Book full of tautology. Please read your own definition. Your cherry picking of definitions is also pathetic.
http//www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=define%3Atautology&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
Here's from your link. Same thing my dictionary definition says, so what are you talking about?
n logic, a tautology is a proposition that is already true by definition, not because of any logical deduction. Usually, it is a non-sensical statement. For instance, "All triangles have three sides" is an inherently true proposition, but it doesn't tell us anything new.
Your belief and reality are literally worlds apart.
Beliefs have no place or are pointless in a conversation. only logical deduction, which you are not doing very well at so far.
Because it isn't there.
What the hell are you talking about? "otherwise, they might overtake each other,"?
Sure. Why mention that Allah prevents something from happening, unless it was something that could possibly happen if Allah didn't prevent it? If I travel east and you travel west, does it need to be mentioned that one will not catch up with the other? Of course not. It's a given. But if we both do a circle around the same thing, then it is no longer a given that one would never catch the other, and therefore the statement that the two cannot catch each other (due to allah's control) suddenly becomes very neaningful and worth mentioning. and, to make it even more clear, it tells us that the night cannot catch the day, in the very same verse where it says the moon can't catch the sun. So why are the movements sun and moon and night and day related so closely in the same exact verse?
The issue was mentioned, because a while back, it was not so much of a tautology as the forefront of science. Again, you apply your own ridiculous notions to it, and fail to grasp why I don't even mention the "Allah prevents this" part of the equation.
It's ridiculous to think that Allah prevents the moon from catching up to the sun? Isn't allah responsible for everything?
Exactly. The moon and sun never catch each other out, and they follow their predefined courses. As for their orbits, it can not mean Earth because as the verse itself states, it is impossible for the day to overtake night, sun to overtake moon, meaning that your reversed definition which allows for the possibility is false
Doesn't the day and night refer to the earth? So why shouldn't the sun and moon refer to the earth as well, especially since they are all right next to each other in the same verse. And they are all right next to each other in other verses as well.
There is no room for your definition in this verse, simple as that.
Boy, wouldn't you love it to be as simple as that.
In surah 51, many things are mentioned side by side in the same sentence (though not ayah).
What? Please quote verses and explain.
517 even states that there are many paths through the heaven.
So?
It isn't obvious, it's false. If the Quran wished to state that the Sun orbited around the Earth and so did the Moon, both through their geodesics, then it would have had active denial (God prevents), not passive denial (it is not allowed).
Passive denial can also simply mean setting the orbit speed for both correctly so that one doesn't catch the other. The concept of one catching the other isn't even relevant if it was talking about two totally unrelated orbits where the sun orbits the galaxy and the moon orbits the earth. But boy, is it ever relevant if it was talking about both orbiting the earth
Well, whoever you heard has no grasp of reality. Of course the sun can revolve around the Earth in 24 hours, just not through the geodesic. And yes, it's relative. You caught on fast.
Yeah, been there, done that. It's an often used excuse, but it never really works. So how fast does the sun travel do to a full circle around the earth?
Please find your local neurosurgeon and donate your brain to science... You just cannot be serious.
Then why don't you pay attention to what you write? Didn't you say everything orbits the earth in 24 hours and also say that the solar sytem orbits the earth in 365 days? Go back and read it. Hey, so far, you've been the guy with the holes in your statements, and I don't just make the claim, I show you exactly why.
To be blunt, everything orbits the Earth, relative to the Earth, in 24 hours. The solar system orbits the Earth, relative to the Earth, in 365 days, as does everything else. It depends on your origin, reference point, etc, etc. The reference point for 24 hours is the centre of the Earth's rotating axis, as for 365 days, I'd imagine somewhere else...If you are being confused by things my young nephew could understand, I feel for you.
There you go. you just said it again. Clearly you said that everything orbits the earth in 24 hours, relative to the earth and also said everything orbits the earth in 365 days, relative to the earth. That's what you said. Look at it again. It's not my problem that you can't communicate clearly. If you explain things this way, then you're nephew will not understand you as nobody is supposed to understand a contradictory sentence such as that. Would you care to reword this? Thank you.
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3640 It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law). - English
Topics discussed in this Verse
La alshshamsu yanbaghee laha an tudrika alqamara wala allaylu sabiqu alnnahari wakullun fee falakin yasbahoona
2133 It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course. - English
Topics discussed in this Verse
Wahuwa allathee khalaqa allayla waalnnahara waalshshamsa waalqamara kullun fee falakin yasbahoona
- The Sun does not collide with the moon.
- The night cannot outstrip the day.
- They swim in thier own orbits.
What's your problem with that?
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- The Sun does not collide with the moon.
- The night cannot outstrip the day.
- They swim in thier own orbits.
What's your problem with that?
Because it is relating the motion of the sun and moon to day and night. The moon cannot outstrip the sun and the night cannot outstrip the day. Both right there, in the same sentence, right next to each other as if they were even said in the same exact breath. Seems far more likely that the Quran thought the sun orbited the earth, as the naked eye told 7th century people, then it thought the sun orbited the galaxy. If the repercussions of this weren't so bad, you'd have no problems seeing this clear relationship.
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Because I am relating the motion of the sun and moon to day and night. The moon cannot outstrip the sun and the night cannot outstrip the day. Both right there, in the same sentence, right next to each other as if they were even said in the same exact breath. Seems far more likely to me that the Quran thought the sun orbited the earth, as the naked eye told 7th century people, then it thought the sun orbited the galaxy. If the repercussions of this weren't so bad, you'd have no problems seeing this clear relationship.
I took the liberty of proofreading and enhancing your post for you.
