Focal Point

ignoramus

Please explain why you disagree.
We have a physical cube, a physical institute, a physical station of Abraham, but somehow, a physically Straight Path (which is just a few metres away and leads straight into the mosque) is silly?

salam

perhaps in another thread, let us deal with the topic in hand in this one!

salam

warner

salam ignoramus

The verse 1087 is addressed to both Moses and Aaron. It may be that the verse is instructing them to establish houses for their people ?within Egypt/ bi misra? (since the command to take the Children of Israel and leave Egypt has not come as yet) and to make houses for Moses and Aaron in front /before/on the opposite meaning outside Egypt/out side the jurisdiction of Pharaoh. Please note the difference in the use of ?establish houses? for the people and ?make houses? for Moses and Aaron.

Although the verse is usually read Qiblathan it can be also ?Qubalathan? and according to Lanes this means ?The direction, point, place in front of a thing, the opposite direction?.

This is in line with the Quranic meaning when we check the use of this root in other verses. Qibla to mean 'a place of convening' or 'focal point' are natural off shoots of the corrupted meaning of ?direction?. These meanings have no basis in the Quraan.

ignoramus

salam ignoramus

The verse 1087 is addressed to both Moses and Aaron. It may be that the verse is instructing them to establish houses for their people ?within Egypt/ bi misra? (since the command to take the Children of Israel and leave Egypt has not come as yet) and to make houses for Moses and Aaron in front /before/on the opposite meaning outside Egypt/out side the jurisdiction of Pharaoh. Please note the difference in the use of ?establish houses? for the people and ?make houses? for Moses and Aaron.

Although the verse is usually read Qiblathan it can be also ?Qubalathan? and according to Lanes this means ?The direction, point, place in front of a thing, the opposite direction?.

This is in line with the Quranic meaning when we check the use of this root in other verses. Qibla to mean 'a place of convening' or 'focal point' are natural off shoots of the corrupted meaning of ?direction?. These meanings have no basis in the Quraan.

salam

your translation does not quite make sense to me, could you please give a complete translation of the verse. also, there seems to be mention of blessings towards the end.

thank you.

salam

Allen

salam ignoramus

Although the verse is usually read Qiblathan it can be also ?Qubalathan? and according to Lanes this means ?The direction, point, place in front of a thing, the opposite direction?.

This is in line with the Quranic meaning when we check the use of this root in other verses. Qibla to mean 'a place of convening' or 'focal point' are natural off shoots of the corrupted meaning of ?direction?. These meanings have no basis in the Quraan.

Qibla = focal point
can be proved from following logic.
A person ,who was learning English was repeating the word "Hen" loudly like this .
"Hen means black ,hen means black ,hen means black."
Someone listened and said to him "hen does not mean "black" rather it means a domestic bird which lays eggs.You know what did that person replied?? "I see.Don't you know that hen is sometimes black ? Yes ,then ? If hen is black ,then hen means black.

Samia

Although the verse is usually read Qiblathan it can be also ?Qubalathan? and according to Lanes this means ?The direction, point, place in front of a thing, the opposite direction?.

Salaam warner, all

The difference between "qiblatan" and "qubaalata" is not just the diatrical signs, but also the spelling. Where I put a double "a" is suppsed to be an alif that does not exist in "qiblatan"
qiblatan
qibaalata

Samia

Salaam all

In verse 1087 I am not much concerned with the word "qibla" as I am with "misr". The reason is that those people are supposedly in Egypt already, and definitely have homes; so why would Moses and Aaron be commanded to make homes for them in "Egypt"?

Here is my understanding
The word "misr" is not Egypt. It means "boarder; foot of mountain". This is logical. They are commanded to take those believers to the boarders, and the house/s of Aaroun and Moses will be the center of their homes so that they can meet and study their new faith or the ten commandments (yuqimuu al salaat) and be ready. Later, they will be lead across the boarders away from the jurisdiction of the Pharaoh. That's why they were asked to move the people near the boarders

warner

Salaam warner, all

The difference between "qiblatan" and "qubaalata" is not just the diatrical signs, but also the spelling. Where I put a double "a" is suppsed to be an alif that does not exist in "qiblatan"
qiblatan
qibaalata

Salaam Samia

I am checking on that. Thanks

warner

Salaam

Egypt is used in the Quran many times do you see all these uses as border? Even if the meaning of misr incorporates border it can mean the country Egypt.

1087 do you mean qiblathan means center? Why do you think it can not be towards.

Samia

Salaam

Egypt is used in the Quran many times do you see all these uses as border? Even if the meaning of misr incorporates border it can mean the country Egypt.

1087 do you mean qiblathan means center? Why do you think it can not be towards.

Well, maybe misr/Egypt is called so because it is the boarder of the region then. In this verse I just do not understand why Moses and Aaroun were commanded to "build houses" in Egypt to people who are already living in houses in Egypt.

As for the "centre", I think I was thinking faster than writing! qibla means facing each other { } ( from al qamous almuheet) , so I imagined that their house will be in the centre to be facing all the other houses.

Mazhar

Here is my understanding
The word "misr" is not Egypt. It means "boarder; foot of mountain". This is logical. They are commanded to take those believers to the boarders, and the house/s of Aaroun and Moses will be the center of their homes so that they can meet and study their new faith or the ten commandments (yuqimuu al salaat) and be ready. Later, they will be lead across the boarders away from the jurisdiction of the Pharaoh. That's why they were asked to move the people near the boarders {Sister Samia}

They did not have the so called ?Ten Commandments? when they were still in Egypt. Salaat has nothing to do with Ten Commandments. It was commanded much earlier by Ibrahim alaihissalam.

why Moses and Aaroun were commanded to "build houses" in Egypt to people who are already living in houses in Egypt.{Sister Samia}

?build houses? is perhaps not the proper translation; Would it not be proper to consider ?appoint/declare? keeping in view the earlier part of the verse

{for Urdu readers the point has been discussed here}

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/book_4/03/slides/01.html

Samia

They did not have the so called ?Ten Commandments? when they were still in Egypt.

Yes, you are right. But there was amessage anyhow which they were already following, including parts of the ten commandments. So the salat involved teachings and studying/programming.

That could be understood anyway you understand the meaning of salat. But what do you understand from ?
I don't understand urdu.

warner

Salaam Ignoramus

1087

And we inspired to Moses and his brother that you (both) establish houses to your people by/within Egypt and make your houses in front/in the opposite/facing and keep up salat and give glad tidings to the believers.

This is what I think but someone like Samia should be able to clarify this better, of course her view of the verse is different as you can see from her posts.

Basysyiril does not mean blessings as far as I know. It means announcement/tidings/news. Here it can be glad/good tidings.

ignoramus

Salaam Ignoramus

1087

And we inspired to Moses and his brother that you (both) establish houses to your people by/within Egypt and make your houses in front/in the opposite/facing and keep up salat and give glad tidings to the believers.

This is what I think but someone like Samia should be able to clarify this better, of course her view of the verse is different as you can see from her posts.

Basysyiril does not mean blessings as far as I know. It means announcement/tidings/news. Here it can be glad/good tidings.

salam

so far, sister Samia's understanding of misr makes sense and i still think qibla means (at least something along the lines of) facing/focus.

i am still no clear on the ending of the verse which most have interpreted as blessings. Sister Samia, could you comment on this please?

salam

Mazhar

That could be understood anyway you understand the meaning of salat. But what do you understand from ?{Sister Samia}

Sister not fair. You could have guided me by giving translation in keeping with the niceties, intricacies and vastness of Arabic language instead putting me in difficulty since you have far better understanding of Arabic and me is merely a student.
I could understand this

"prepare or acknowledge" for the nation of you both, houses in Egypt, and "appoint your {these prepared/acknowledged} houses as Qiblata and establish prayer".

Bani Israel could not make mosques facing Kaaba in the reign of Pharoah. And the Egypt was a planned city, houses could not be made in whatever direction people wanted to make them. And the city was divided into many blocks, parts. Bani Israel must be living in various parts. I understand that both the brothers were asked to select/ acknowledge suitable houses in vartious parts of the city and tell the people of that vicinity to consider such and such house as Qiblata for establishing prayer. For prayers there has to be a Qiblata {bait} in front of the person.

Samia

Sister not fair. You could have guided me by giving translation in keeping with the niceties, intricacies and vastness of Arabic language instead putting me in difficulty since you have far better understanding of Arabic and me is merely a student.
I could understand this

I am sorry you took it that way! I thought from your post that this part (the Arabic verse) was explained in your homepage in urdu.

Still, why mentioning Egypt? They are always in Egypt. If I want to buy a house or build a house, I am not going to say I want to build a house in the UK, unless there is another option. They do not have this other option, that's why I rule out Egypt.

"Bayt" is different from "manzel house" in that it is a place where you sleep (home) and it shares the same root as the verb "byt" to sleep over/spend the night. Maybe that's what was asked of the people of Moses and Haroun, to build some place near the borders or at the foot of the mountain where they spend the night so that the soldiers (who murder children) will not find them when they go to their houses.

They are commanded to make their homes qibla, i.e build them facing each other, more emphasis on safety and looking over each other.

Mazhar

But Sister, from where we can deduce "build", "to built". Can "bemisr" be taken as to mean "down town" and "Tabawwaa" as "earmark"?

Samia

But Sister, from where we can deduce "build", "to built". Can "bemisr" be taken as to mean "down town" and "Tabawwaa" as "earmark"?

Tabwwa'a generally means to settle, and here it can mean make them settle or earmark them places to settle in. But why do you think "misr" is "down town"? It means a place, generally on the boarder of a river (for example Kufa and Basra are also called the two misrs), a mountain or any natural landmark. It also means "limits, boarders" as in saying "the sun is the misr between day and night (poetry) .

This verse, in my opinion, is a preparation for the great exodus, especially as at the end of the verse wa bash-shiril mu'mineena and bring the good news/tidings to the believers. Good news of what? Of their salvation from the tyrant.

Allen

Tabwwa'a generally means to settle, and here it can mean make them settle or earmark them places to settle in. But why do you think "misr" is "down town"? It means a place, generally on the boarder of a river (for example Kufa and Basra are also called the two misrs), a mountain or any natural landmark. It also means "limits, boarders" as in saying "the sun is the misr between day and night (poetry) .

This verse, in my opinion, is a preparation for the great exodus, especially as at the end of the verse wa bash-shiril mu'mineena and bring the good news/tidings to the believers. Good news of what? Of their salvation from the tyrant.

No doubt the word "misr" does mean boundry or limit or partition.
In the verse 1087 word used is "bi-misra".It is being used as "diptote" while example qouted above is that of "triptote"i.e indefinite noun.Why is this so?

warner

Peace Ignoramus

4138
Pickthall Bear unto the hypocrites the tidings that for them there is a painful doom;
Transliteration Basysyiril muna_fiqina bi anna lahum 'aza_ban alima_(n).

Do you think the verse says blessings for hypocrites ?

Mazhar

Tabwwa'a generally means to settle, and here it can mean make them settle or earmark them places to settle in. But why do you think "misr" is "down town"? It means a place, generally on the boarder of a river (for example Kufa and Basra are also called the two misrs), a mountain or any natural landmark.{Sister Samia}

I was trying to refer to and obtain a considered opinion

{Refer 261}

denotes coming down from higher place to downward place, perhaps.

And if we take to mean a strip bordering a river then they were already at a place by the side of a river, nile.