Focal Point
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Salaam Ignoramus
1087
And we inspired to Moses and his brother that you (both) establish houses to your people by/within Egypt and make your houses in front/in the opposite/facing and keep up salat and give glad tidings to the believers.
This is what I think but someone like Samia should be able to clarify this better, of course her view of the verse is different as you can see from her posts.
Basysyiril does not mean blessings as far as I know. It means announcement/tidings/news. Here it can be glad/good tidings.
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Salaam Ignoramus
1087
And we inspired to Moses and his brother that you (both) establish houses to your people by/within Egypt and make your houses in front/in the opposite/facing and keep up salat and give glad tidings to the believers.
This is what I think but someone like Samia should be able to clarify this better, of course her view of the verse is different as you can see from her posts.
Basysyiril does not mean blessings as far as I know. It means announcement/tidings/news. Here it can be glad/good tidings.
salam
so far, sister Samia's understanding of misr makes sense and i still think qibla means (at least something along the lines of) facing/focus.
i am still no clear on the ending of the verse which most have interpreted as blessings. Sister Samia, could you comment on this please?
salam
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That could be understood anyway you understand the meaning of salat. But what do you understand from ?{Sister Samia}
Sister not fair. You could have guided me by giving translation in keeping with the niceties, intricacies and vastness of Arabic language instead putting me in difficulty since you have far better understanding of Arabic and me is merely a student.
I could understand this"prepare or acknowledge" for the nation of you both, houses in Egypt, and "appoint your {these prepared/acknowledged} houses as Qiblata and establish prayer".
Bani Israel could not make mosques facing Kaaba in the reign of Pharoah. And the Egypt was a planned city, houses could not be made in whatever direction people wanted to make them. And the city was divided into many blocks, parts. Bani Israel must be living in various parts. I understand that both the brothers were asked to select/ acknowledge suitable houses in vartious parts of the city and tell the people of that vicinity to consider such and such house as Qiblata for establishing prayer. For prayers there has to be a Qiblata {bait} in front of the person.
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Sister not fair. You could have guided me by giving translation in keeping with the niceties, intricacies and vastness of Arabic language instead putting me in difficulty since you have far better understanding of Arabic and me is merely a student.
I could understand thisI am sorry you took it that way! I thought from your post that this part (the Arabic verse) was explained in your homepage in urdu.
Still, why mentioning Egypt? They are always in Egypt. If I want to buy a house or build a house, I am not going to say I want to build a house in the UK, unless there is another option. They do not have this other option, that's why I rule out Egypt.
"Bayt" is different from "manzel house" in that it is a place where you sleep (home) and it shares the same root as the verb "byt" to sleep over/spend the night. Maybe that's what was asked of the people of Moses and Haroun, to build some place near the borders or at the foot of the mountain where they spend the night so that the soldiers (who murder children) will not find them when they go to their houses.
They are commanded to make their homes qibla, i.e build them facing each other, more emphasis on safety and looking over each other.
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But Sister, from where we can deduce "build", "to built". Can "bemisr" be taken as to mean "down town" and "Tabawwaa" as "earmark"?
Tabwwa'a generally means to settle, and here it can mean make them settle or earmark them places to settle in. But why do you think "misr" is "down town"? It means a place, generally on the boarder of a river (for example Kufa and Basra are also called the two misrs), a mountain or any natural landmark. It also means "limits, boarders" as in saying "the sun is the misr between day and night (poetry) .
This verse, in my opinion, is a preparation for the great exodus, especially as at the end of the verse wa bash-shiril mu'mineena and bring the good news/tidings to the believers. Good news of what? Of their salvation from the tyrant.
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Tabwwa'a generally means to settle, and here it can mean make them settle or earmark them places to settle in. But why do you think "misr" is "down town"? It means a place, generally on the boarder of a river (for example Kufa and Basra are also called the two misrs), a mountain or any natural landmark. It also means "limits, boarders" as in saying "the sun is the misr between day and night (poetry) .
This verse, in my opinion, is a preparation for the great exodus, especially as at the end of the verse wa bash-shiril mu'mineena and bring the good news/tidings to the believers. Good news of what? Of their salvation from the tyrant.
No doubt the word "misr" does mean boundry or limit or partition.
In the verse 1087 word used is "bi-misra".It is being used as "diptote" while example qouted above is that of "triptote"i.e indefinite noun.Why is this so? -
Tabwwa'a generally means to settle, and here it can mean make them settle or earmark them places to settle in. But why do you think "misr" is "down town"? It means a place, generally on the boarder of a river (for example Kufa and Basra are also called the two misrs), a mountain or any natural landmark.{Sister Samia}
I was trying to refer to and obtain a considered opinion
{Refer 261}
denotes coming down from higher place to downward place, perhaps.
And if we take to mean a strip bordering a river then they were already at a place by the side of a river, nile.
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I was trying to refer to and obtain a considered opinion
{Refer 261}
denotes coming down from higher place to downward place, perhaps.
And if we take to mean a strip bordering a river then they were already at a place by the side of a river, nile.
The word does not mean necessarily "to come down from higher to lower place "(It is just one of its meanings).When it is followed by some place or city then it means simply "to enter "
) (
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- ( 1 / 5042)
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The word does not mean necessarily "to come down from higher to lower place "(It is just one of its meanings).When it is followed by some place or city then it means simply "to enter "
Can we also take it in reverse order? Words made from this Root perhaps appear eight times and at all those places the reflection is perhaps from higher to lower place.
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Can we also take it in reverse order? Words made from this Root perhaps appear eight times and at all those places the reflection is perhaps from higher to lower place.
Out of all these eight locations in the Quran ,none of this root derivative is followed by any place except the above mentioned verse.
In this verse "Ihbitoo" is followed by a "place " misran" (city).It will mean as "Enter" as clarified in the dictionaries of the classical Arabic.
Another dictionary.
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No doubt the word "misr" does mean boundry or limit or partition.
In the verse 1087 word used is "bi-misra".It is being used as "diptote" while example qouted above is that of "triptote"i.e indefinite noun.Why is this so?Maybe it is (bi misrin) not (bi misra)? This is pure grammar.
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(1087)
I also have a "mushaf" and I can see this. What I am saying is if you remove the grammar markers or case endings, you can read the verse/word in either way
(1087)
The word "misr" is written with a nunnation ( ) when it has to appear on an alif. We cannot rule out, therefore, that it is also nunnated here
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I also have a "mushaf" and I can see this. What I am saying is if you remove the grammar markers or case endings, you can read the verse/word in either way
(1087)
The word "misr" is written with a nunnation ( ) when it has to appear on an alif. We cannot rule out, therefore, that it is also nunnated here
That is why vowelling has been put.
It is "bimisra" = diptote .
not a triptote.So triptote examples are not applicable here . -
Greetings,
Though this thread has been inactive for quite a while, but I recently had some discussions with some people and see that a theory about the "qibla" or "focal point" is quite interesting.
Let's consider this analysis/theory about the "qibla"/focal point
NOTE This is just a THEORY. The following is a redition of the verses explaining this theory. Please help correct/check it and show your views.
NOTE This is probably about a nation that has passed away as in 2134, 2141, so please don't take too much attention on it more than believing in God and doing good.*Please note that the believers referred to here are those who are with the prophet at that time, and you mostly refers to the prophet.
-Prior to 240 God is re-telling the stories that the people of the scripture know.
-God adresses the Children of Israel directly from 240 onwards, telling them to realize and accept this new revelation that God has sent down, authenticating what they already have, clarifying what they mixed with falsehood, etc... Read on...
-In 2114, God shows that the people of the scripture boycott God's temple, not allow God's name to be mentioned in the temples... Not allowing people to do so, so in 2115 God shows that God is everywhere, no need to worry about their disallowance at that time maybe deal with it later.
-2125 shows that God entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael to purify the temple for those who visit a gathering place for those who want to humbly accept and follow God's bonds/laws that were revealed and remember/praise/discuss about God there. The people of the scripture came to disallow this as in 2114. (Yes, it's evident that most probably this is at the rock in Jerusalem see Layth's Where was Muhammad article at http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/moh.htm)
-The prophet and believers now probably realize that the original gathering place/temple set by God is Abraham's temple. So the prophet and the belivers are eager to go and gather there to remember, praise God, study the revelations there, etc.
-Since it is disallowed to gather there, a debate between God's Messenger (Muhammad) and the people of the scripture starts from 2135, God tells the Messenger what to tell them (2136 onwards...)
-*** Now, in 2142 shows that some people in this ongoing debate came to ask what made the believers change their ***gathering place/qibla from what they were on. That is, why the believers come to gather here at this temple which the people of the scripture forbade? The reason is shown from the context that they come here because they want to go to re-use the temple where God entrusted Abraham to set up.
-In 2143 - it shows that the reason that God entrusted Abraham to make such a temple/place/gathering point was to distinguish who really follows God's messenger(s) from those who will turn on their heels. It's like who's willing to take action do the belief as practical reality. This is also probably the reason why God reavealed Abraham's temple story/details to them. It was a great thing for the believers or those who came to accept belief to clearly identify themselves - step out to cross the line. God was not to waste their belief God gave them a chance to do better by taking action.
-In 2144, (God sees the eagerness of the prophet to use this original gathering place as revealed) God decrees onto the believers to set themselves to this original place as the gathering place/point to conquer it back from the oppressors who disallowed to use it even the believers with the prophet are to be chased out (go out”. They know about it but they hide the truth disallow gathering there.
-2145 Shows none of the groups would gather together. The people of the scripture know that this is Abraham's (physical) temple/sanctuary yet they disallow using it for the causes as in 2125.
-2148 Shows that whatever the group, it's besst to remember to maintain doing good.
-2149 - 150 tells the prophet and the believers there to take this decree to gather at Abaraham's temple strongly. And, since the people of the scripture don't gather there so they won't come to debate overthere except those who are wicked as in 2114 who want to disallow its use don't fear them but fear God instead so God can guide & bless the believers (this is probably the God will not waste your belief in 2143)
-2151-153 Re assures the believers of God's blessing upon them by revealing this revelation to them so be grateful to God and so hold on to God's bond/salat patiently.
-Upto now, since the believers show their standing point clearly, confrontation would happen, so 2154-157 shows about handling these situations.
Conclusion
According to this theory, qibla or Focal Point means gathering point/place. Try it with 1087 also.
This theory is also based on the theories/understandings that
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The masjid al haram is at the dome of the rock in Jerusalem. See http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/moh.htm
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Salat means bond (mostly used as upholding God's commandments). See http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm and http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm
May God Guide.
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As Salaamu Alaika Zidane,
Without going to the ayaat this second to study each conclusion you have made; upon first reading I like what you have said about qibla. I will study the conclusions here more and comment later, Allah willing. I am also in agreement about the Dome of the Rock. But my understanding/definition of As Salaat, as I have posted in another thread, is here
As Salaat is worship. Worship is devotional obedience. Worship is to obey Allah?s will, submit your will to do His. Not only is As Salaat worship/devotional obedience, but so should everything that we do in life be directed as such. As Salaat is going through training given to you by Allah the most High. The orientation of the mind to find or know thyself, is the most important thing. The Quran is given to wake up the mentally and spiritually dead to their original nature, or fitr. Allah created the human person to ascend in his person and soul. Allah created us for freedom of intellect. We should ask questions and learn all about ourselves, our nafs. Surrendering is to want to be reconciled with Allah?s original purpose for our creation. As Salaat is worship as a ritual that holds many signs and keys for our growth as human persons and human souls. To be able to stand up in your soul is the greatest achievement for the human being. As Salaat is a ritual that preserves knowledge. Knowledge about how to receive, follow and obey the guidance given to the human being from Allah.
Ritual 1a. The prescribed order of a religious ceremony. B. The body of ceremonies or rites used in a place of worship. 2a. The prescribed form of conducting a formal secular ceremony. B. The body of ceremonies used by a fraternal organization. 3. A book of rites or ceremonial forms. 4. rituals. A. A ceremonial act or series of such acts. B. The performance of such acts. 5a. A detailed method of procedure faithfully or regularly followed. B. A state or condition characterized by the presence of established procedure or routine.
Allah gives us many detailed descriptions about the ritual of As Salaat in Al Quran. The rituals are physical acts that preserve the knowlege and guidance contained in them and hidden from those who refuse to follow the command to perform them, or from those who do so without the sincerity required by Allah. The physical aspects of performing the ritual are not meant to be the most important aspect, but the spiritual growth that you get from performing the physical aspects of the ritual as instructed to you by Allah. Just as in this life the human body is connected to the human soul, and once they are separated, i.e. death, this existence ends; also in As Salaat if one leaves off the physical aspects as defined by Allah in Al Quran, the spiritual aspects will be dead according to what Allah has given as the guidance for it in Al Quran.
When one is trying to define As Salaat from Al Quran, one must be conscious of the different grammatical forms that the root of the phrase is used as, S L W. All words containing the same root word are not meant or intended to mean the same thing in ANY language, including Quranic Arabic. Please notice the different definitions and grammatical forms of words with the root S L W already pointed out by DArgento earlier in this post. To disregard grammatical forms in definitions is to cheat yourself in understanding.
Greetings,
Though this thread has been inactive for quite a while, but I recently had some discussions with some people and see that a theory about the "qibla" or "focal point" is quite interesting.
Let's consider this analysis/theory about the "qibla"/focal point
NOTE This is just a THEORY. The following is a redition of the verses explaining this theory. Please help correct/check it and show your views.
NOTE This is probably about a nation that has passed away as in 2134, 2141, so please don't take too much attention on it more than believing in God and doing good.*Please note that the ?believers? referred to here are those who are with the prophet at that time, and ?you? mostly refers to the prophet.
-Prior to 240 God is re-telling the stories that the people of the scripture know.
-God adresses the Children of Israel directly from 240 onwards, telling them to realize and accept this new revelation that God has sent down, authenticating what they already have, clarifying what they mixed with falsehood, etc... Read on...
-In 2114, God shows that the people of the scripture boycott God's temple, not allow God's name to be mentioned in the temples... Not allowing people to do so, so in 2115 God shows that God is everywhere, no need to worry about their disallowance at that time ? maybe deal with it later.
-2125 shows that God entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael to purify the temple for those who visit ? a gathering place for those who want to humbly accept and follow God's bonds/laws that were revealed ? and remember/praise/discuss about God there. The people of the scripture came to disallow this as in 2114. (Yes, it's evident that most probably this is at the rock in Jerusalem ? see Layth's ?Where was Muhammad? article at http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/moh.htm)
-The prophet and believers now probably realize that the original gathering place/temple set by God is Abraham's temple. So the prophet and the belivers are eager to go and gather there to remember, praise God, study the revelations there, etc.
-Since it is disallowed to gather there, a debate between God's Messenger (Muhammad) and the people of the scripture starts from 2135, God tells the Messenger what to tell them (2136 onwards...)
-*** Now, in 2142 shows that some people in this ongoing debate came to ask what made the believers change their ***gathering place/qibla from what they were on. That is, why the believers come to gather here at this temple which the people of the scripture forbade? The reason is shown from the context that they come here because they want to go to re-use the temple where God entrusted Abraham to set up.
-In 2143 - it shows that the reason that God entrusted Abraham to make such a temple/place/gathering point was to distinguish who really follows God's messenger(s) from those who will turn on their heels. It's like who's willing to take action ? do the belief as practical reality. This is also probably the reason why God reavealed Abraham's temple story/details to them. It was a great thing for the believers or those who came to accept belief to clearly identify themselves - step out to cross the line. God was not to waste their belief ? God gave them a chance to do better by taking action.
-In 2144, (God sees the eagerness of the prophet to use this original gathering place as revealed) God decrees onto the believers to set themselves to this original place as the gathering place/point ? to conquer it back from the oppressors who disallowed to use it even the believers with the prophet are to be chased out (?go out?). They know about it but they hide the truth ? disallow gathering there.
-2145 Shows none of the groups would gather together. The people of the scripture know that this is Abraham's (physical) temple/sanctuary yet they disallow using it for the causes as in 2125.
-2148 Shows that whatever the group, it's besst to remember to maintain doing good.
-2149 - 150 tells the prophet and the believers there to take this decree to gather at Abaraham's temple strongly. And, since the people of the scripture don't gather there so they won't come to debate overthere except those who are wicked as in 2114 who want to disallow its use ? don't fear them but fear God instead so God can guide & bless the believers (this is probably the ?God will not waste your belief? in 2143)
-2151-153 Re assures the believers of God's blessing upon them by revealing this revelation to them so be grateful to God and so hold on to God's bond/salat patiently.
-Upto now, since the believers show their standing point clearly, confrontation would happen, so 2154-157 shows about handling these situations.
Conclusion
According to this theory, ?qibla? or ?Focal Point? means ?gathering point/place?. Try it with 1087 also.
This theory is also based on the theories/understandings that
-
The ?masjid al haram? is at the dome of the rock in Jerusalem. See http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/moh.htm
-
Salat means bond (mostly used as upholding God's commandments). See http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm and http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm
May God Guide.
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