Can we finally answer the question of timing of salaat and sawm?
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Peace to all.
The ritual I detailed was a product of my researches as a faithful quraan alone muslim.
The truth is that people will spend countless hours trying to uncover the proper way of performing salaat according to the Quraan. Unfortunately they will never find it.
The Quraan is not an educational text, meaning there is nothing in the Quraan which is truly new. It's all about clarifying the mistakes of the past communities and explaining the nature of Allah. So you will never find a detailed explanation of Salaat, nor how to give Zakaat, or even the process of becoming a Muslim (shahaadah).
The Quraan is a wonderful and edifying scripture. It must however take its place alongside the other scritpures of Allah.
Have a wonderful day,
Talib ben Abraham -
Salaam
What is the connection between the times of Fajr and Isha/Evening Salat and the times of start of fast and breaking fast as for the Quran? How will these time rules apply to salat and sawm in different locations in the world and in different periods and seasons of the year?
Also do you think we can follow times specified in the Quran for salat and fasting if we follow the lunar calendar?
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Salaam Wakas
You are right. What I was trying to question is the times for Salat and Sawm can not contradict (or become practically impossible) to the times mentioned in the Quran just because our location on earth and the time of the year.
I am not talking about the extreme such as the people in the space or the poles since people usually do not live there (or a very small minority) but I am thinking about locations such as Scandinavian countries and even places like Australia, Falkland islands on the south.
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peace,
As far as I'm aware to abstain/sawm is only for those who witness the month/full-moon, thus if you do not witness it, you do not abstain/sawm in it. Also, it gives options if one is ill, not sure about generally unable, as I haven't studied it.
And as for the regular/timed salat/bond, I am only aware of one usage in a plural audience address and that is 2458. In this verse, the sun is not directly mentioned, thus I take it to mean at the start and end of your day, whenever your day is. When I say plural address I mean to the mumineen (and referring to timing), not general usage.
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Salaam Wakas , all
What is the possibility for someone not to witness a month?
How about times of start and end of fasting for different locations on Earth?
Thanks for explaining your view on salat. My view on salat is different so I will not discuss salat with you here .
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peace,
What is the possibility for someone not to witness a month?
It depends on what timing mechanism you use. If it is the moon/sun and the usual cycle is not present where you live, then you may not witness it.
How about times of start and end of fasting for different locations on Earth?
Well different locations would start and end their sawm at different times, based on the sunrise/sunset times.
Thanks for explaining your view on salat. My view on salat is different so I will not discuss salat with you here .
I agree, our view on what salat is not really important if discussing timing issues only.
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Salaam
I still have some unanswered questions on Ramadan and fasting. The word Ramadan appears only once in the Quran and also no other words appear from that root. The succession of the root has no connection to heat or scorching heat. We have to rely totally on the Lexicon. It maybe correct but we can not be certain. I am not challenging or trying to build a theory but I needed to clear some doubts. The word Heat has other words in Arabic even really fierce heat as we can see in 981. But it is possible somewhere maybe even after the Quran was revealed Ramadan and fasting were connected to a period of scorching heat.
As most here agree the year should be fixed to the sun and the calendar should be solar. It is absurd to have the months spinning across the seasons by using a lunar calendar. If we agree Ramadan means scorching heat then there are few factors we should consider. The hottest temperature can vary in different places in different times of the year. In the Death Valley USA it may be July/August, India and Pakistan it maybe May in Amman, Jordan and Madina, S.A. it is August. The highest recorded temperature in the world was in Libya in a month of September. So we can not fix the month of Ramadan to the hottest month since the hottest month may vary in each location. Also scorching heat suggests high temperature high humidity climate. Because for that kind of heat both temperature and humidity matters. Also 1400 years ago they did not have thermometers they may have described the temperature or the heat based on how they feel. Hot humid climate is more difficult to bear than just the heat. If we look in that direction September will be the month of scorching heat for places such as Amman, Jordan and Madina, S.A.
Also I feel to be fair each location (at least the normally populated places) should have the equal number of hours for day and night of fasting. In July for example many places will have a variation of up to 4 hours between night and day i.e. between Sun rise and sunset. But in and around September 23 the time of the Autumn Equinox (September Equinox) most places on earth will have day and night almost for an equal number of hours. On September 23 it will be equal day and night but 2 weeks prior and after will not have major differences (maybe less than one hour) in the number of hours in most locations.
Also I think to determine Ramadan some clues maybe there in start and end of fasting. The time mentioned for start of fasting in 2187 until the white thread of dawn appears to you distinct from its black thread is a phenomenon in the early morning sky before sunrise. I think this time is the time between Astronomical twilight and Nautical Twilight. (Some may refer to this as false dawn and real dawn). I am not an expert in this subject but I think in some months of the year the twilight can take many hours whereas near the equinoxes it may be within 30 minutes. Even the ending the fast in the night (2187) can be affected because of long twilights before the night/darkness which may take few hours in some periods of the year in certain locations of the earth. All this may make difficult or sometimes impossible to up hold the fast according to the times specified to start and end the fast in the Quran in certain months.
So once again this is not a theory I want to propagate but a discussion I would like to have on the suggestions for different months of Ramadan.
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So we can not fix the month of Ramadan to the hottest month since the hottest month may vary in each location.
Why not? Do muslims have to be united down to the miswak they use? ;D
Also I feel to be fair
Bad.
Hot humid climate is more difficult to bear than just the heat.
Very good point.
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Peace OPF
The guy who thinks the tooth brush has to be same for everyone is ignorant and the guy who thinks every individual can have their own month of Ramadan is an idiot.
?I feel to be fair?, what I meant or what you failed to read in between was ? I feel fasting to be fair to everyone that it should be a similar number of hours for all?
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Peace Warner,
I still have some unanswered questions on Ramadan and fasting. The word Ramadan appears only once in the Quran and also no other words appear from that root. The succession of the root has no connection to heat or scorching heat. We have to rely totally on the Lexicon. It maybe correct but we can not be certain. I am not challenging or trying to build a theory but I needed to clear some doubts. The word ?Heat? has other words in Arabic even really fierce heat as we can see in 981. But it is possible somewhere maybe even after the Quran was revealed Ramadan and fasting were connected to a period of scorching heat.
We cannot understand the word "ramadan" by looking at it in isolation. We have to take the whole expression "shahr ramadan" and try to undestand it. Accordingly, here is what we can easily know from the great reading alone (even without dictionaries)
- "shahr ramadan" is not an abstraction but is an actual observable phenomenon that can be witnessed.
- "shahr ramadan" where the great reading was descended is also referred to as "the night of measure" (971).
- As relating to timing, the word "measure" also occurs in 3639 which is describing how the god has measured the moon's "manazil"/descents (i.e., its descent in size) until it becomes the crescent shape. So the start of the measure is from the full-moon shape.
All the words except "ramadan" occur multiple times in the great reading and thus can be cross-referenced without the use of dictionaries.
As most here agree the year should be fixed to the sun and the calendar should be solar. It is absurd to have the months spinning across the seasons by using a lunar calendar.
Yes, the year is solar but how do you divide the solar year for timing purposes? There are two major observable phenomenon in the solar year, the two solstices (where the shade is at its max (winter) and min (summer)). There is a need to further divide the solar year for timing between those two events. All purely solar calendars arbitrarily divide the solar year. Thus, nothing in those divisions is "observable". So you can't, for example, witness the beginning of September or any solar month for that matter.
If we agree Ramadan means scorching heat then there are few factors we should consider. The hottest temperature can vary in different places in different times of the year. In the Death Valley USA it may be July/August, India and Pakistan it maybe May in Amman, Jordan and Madina, S.A. it is August. The highest recorded temperature in the world was in Libya in a month of September. So we can not fix the month of Ramadan to the hottest month since the hottest month may vary in each location. Also scorching heat suggests high temperature high humidity climate. Because for that kind of heat both temperature and humidity matters. Also 1400 years ago they did not have thermometers they may have described the temperature or the heat based on how they feel. Hot humid climate is more difficult to bear than just the heat. If we look in that direction September will be the month of scorching heat for places such as Amman, Jordan and Madina, S.A.
Again, the meaning must be looked at in the context of the expression "shahr ramadan" and the three points above. The term "scorching" has two connotations "red" and "hot". You are only considering the meaning of "hot" but not that of "red". Also, you are assuming that "shahr" means "month" but this contradicts the great reading because a "month" is an abstraction and it is not an observable phenomenon that can be witnessed.
Also I feel to be fair each location (at least the normally populated places) should have the equal number of hours for day and night of fasting. In July for example many places will have a variation of up to 4 hours between night and day i.e. between Sun rise and sunset. But in and around September 23 the time of the Autumn Equinox (September Equinox) most places on earth will have day and night almost for an equal number of hours. On September 23 it will be equal day and night but 2 weeks prior and after will not have major differences (maybe less than one hour) in the number of hours in most locations.
The god told us that those who can abstain but with difficulty can instead feed the needy. So this would apply to anyone living in an area where the day is excessively long.
Also I think to determine Ramadan some clues maybe there in start and end of fasting. The time mentioned for start of fasting in 2187 ?until the white thread of dawn appears to you distinct from its black thread? is a phenomenon in the early morning sky before sunrise. I think this time is the time between Astronomical twilight and Nautical Twilight. (Some may refer to this as false dawn and real dawn). I am not an expert in this subject but I think in some months of the year the twilight can take many hours whereas near the equinoxes it may be within 30 minutes. Even the ending the fast in the night (2187) can be affected because of long twilights before the night/darkness which may take few hours in some periods of the year in certain locations of the earth. All this may make difficult or sometimes impossible to up hold the fast according to the times specified to start and end the fast in the Quran in certain months.
The ending of the fast is at sunset (when the "layl" begins according to the great reading). This is a precisely demarked point of time. On the other hand, clearly observing the white thread of dawn can be somewhat subjective. So when we start the abstinence is not very precise. This is OK because one is probably more inclined to care about precision when he is thirsty and hungry than when he is not.
For more info please see
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Warner,
We cannot understand the word "ramadan" by looking at it in isolation. We have to take the whole expression "shahr ramadan" and try to undestand it. Accordingly, here is what we can easily know from the great reading alone (even without dictionaries)
- "shahr ramadan" is not an abstraction but is an actual observable phenomenon that can be witnessed.
Ayman
(2185)
In this verse the word "Ramadan" is being used as a "diptote".So it must be a "Proper noun"
Secondly word "shahida " does mean ' to witness" but it is not its only meaning.Its other meaning is "to be present".{ }
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( 1 / 2061)
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} {
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. . . .
( )
)Whosoever is present during this month (Ramadan) is bound to fast.
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Peace Allen,
Thank you for your comments.
(2185)
In this verse the word "Ramadan" is being used as a "diptote". So it must be a "Proper noun"This is what we are taught in school and most people accept it without questioning. In reality, the Arabic grammar that we are taught at school is different from the grammar of the great reading. People typically realize this when they study it more in depth. When we research and study pre-quranic and early post-quranic Arabic, we can immediately see the following facts
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None of the early quranic or Arabic manuscripts have case endings or any vocalization marks. It is not until the 9th - 10th century CE that we gradually see consistent vocalization in manuscripts of the great reading. This is a full 300-400 years after the revelation of the great reading.
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Moreover, even without the indisputable archeological evidence, an intelligent reading of the text will show that vocalization marks have very low functional load. In fact, they have such low functional load that people have naturally realized that they are useless and modern standard Arabic has done away with them. Thus you are able to read Al-Ahram newspaper and clearly understand what it says without case endings or any vocalization marks whatsoever.
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It is clear from reciting the great reading itself that it originally didn?t have case endings. Thus, nobody, even the most ardent believer in case endings ever recites the Fatiha as
"bismi allahi alarhmani alarahimi, alhamdu lilahi rabi al?alamina, alarhmani alarahimi, maliki yawmi aldini, Iyaka na3budu wa iyaka nasta?ainu, ihdina alsirata almustaqima, ... wa la aldalina. "
Everyone who recites the great reading routinely and completely ignores case endings because most passages in the great reading sound awkward with them. For example, try reading Chapter 55 with the case endings and you will see why everyone intuitively doesn't use the vocalization marks for the case endings there. Just listen to any recitation. You will NEVER hear anyone saying "AlrahmanU 3allama alquranA". You will ALWAYS hear them say "Alrahman 3alam alquran". Even the most stringent defenders of vocalization marks and Sibaweh's grammar are forced to read it this way and are forced to admit this fact. Reading it any other way would sound terribly awkward and pretentious. So it is a fact that the great reading didn?t originally have case endings and those are completely manmade.
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Even the consonantal text of the great reading often shows complete disregard of case endings. Some well-known examples include 569 where "Sabi'una" should be "Sabi'ina" according to the rules of so-called Classical Arabic. Another is "moqimin" should be "moqimun" in 4162 and in 2177 "sabirin" should be "sabirun", etc.
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There is absolutely no evidence of a pre-quranic month named Ramadan.
Based on the above facts, your observation about the case ending doesn?t really have much weight. Add to this the actuality that the common noun meaning of "ramadan" fits in the context and there is really nothing to support the proper name theory. Thus the initial part of 2185 can be translated as follows
- A scorching full-moon is the one where the intense reading was descended...
Secondly word "shahida " does mean ' to witness" but it is not its only meaning. Its other meaning is "to be present".
I think that besides the obvious redundancy of such meaning as Ignoramus pointed out above, there is no other occurrence in the great reading where the meaning of "shahida" is "to be present", so why single this occurrence as the odd one out?
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Allen,
Thank you for your comments.
This is what we are taught in school and most people accept it without questioning. In reality, the Arabic grammar that we are taught at school is different from the grammar of the great reading. People typically realize this when they study it more in depth. When we research and study pre-quranic and early post-quranic Arabic, we can immediately see the following facts
-
None of the early quranic or Arabic manuscripts have case endings or any vocalization marks. It is not until the 9th - 10th century CE that we gradually see consistent vocalization in manuscripts of the great reading. This is a full 300-400 years after the revelation of the great reading.
-
Moreover, even without the indisputable archeological evidence, an intelligent reading of the text will show that vocalization marks have very low functional load. In fact, they have such low functional load that people have naturally realized that they are useless and modern standard Arabic has done away with them. Thus you are able to read Al-Ahram newspaper and clearly understand what it says without case endings or any vocalization marks whatsoever.
-
It is clear from reciting the great reading itself that it originally didn?t have case endings. Thus, nobody, even the most ardent believer in case endings ever recites the Fatiha as
"bismi allahi alarhmani alarahimi, alhamdu lilahi rabi al?alamina, alarhmani alarahimi, maliki yawmi aldini, Iyaka na3budu wa iyaka nasta?ainu, ihdina alsirata almustaqima, ... wa la aldalina. "
Everyone who recites the great reading routinely and completely ignores case endings because most passages in the great reading sound awkward with them. For example, try reading Chapter 55 with the case endings and you will see why everyone intuitively doesn't use the vocalization marks for the case endings there. Just listen to any recitation. You will NEVER hear anyone saying "AlrahmanU 3allama alquranA". You will ALWAYS hear them say "Alrahman 3alam alquran". Even the most stringent defenders of vocalization marks and Sibaweh's grammar are forced to read it this way and are forced to admit this fact. Reading it any other way would sound terribly awkward and pretentious. So it is a fact that the great reading didn?t originally have case endings and those are completely manmade.
-
Even the consonantal text of the great reading often shows complete disregard of case endings. Some well-known examples include 569 where "Sabi'una" should be "Sabi'ina" according to the rules of so-called Classical Arabic. Another is "moqimin" should be "moqimun" in 4162 and in 2177 "sabirin" should be "sabirun", etc.
-
There is absolutely no evidence of a pre-quranic month named Ramadan.
Based on the above facts, your observation about the case ending doesn?t really have much weight. Add to this the actuality that the common noun meaning of "ramadan" fits in the context and there is really nothing to support the proper name theory. Thus the initial part of 2185 can be translated as follows
- A scorching full-moon is the one where the intense reading was descended...
I think that besides the obvious redundancy of such meaning as Ignoramus pointed out above, there is no other occurrence in the great reading where the meaning of "shahida" is "to be present", so why single this occurrence as the odd one out?
Peace,
Ayman
In arabic "i3raab" mean a lot no matter these are in written form as in "Al-kitaab" or in the spoken form.
Here the verse under discussion is using " "
What is your opinion about it ?
1Was it revealed with this spoknen i3raab (ramadaana) as it is in the Mushaf ??
2Was it revealed with some other spoken i3raab but changed later ? -
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Peace to all.
The ritual I detailed was a product of my researches as a faithful quraan alone muslim.
The truth is that people will spend countless hours trying to uncover the proper way of performing salaat according to the Quraan. Unfortunately they will never find it.
The Quraan is not an educational text, meaning there is nothing in the Quraan which is truly new. It's all about clarifying the mistakes of the past communities and explaining the nature of Allah. So you will never find a detailed explanation of Salaat, nor how to give Zakaat, or even the process of becoming a Muslim (shahaadah).
The Quraan is a wonderful and edifying scripture. It must however take its place alongside the other scritpures of Allah.
Have a wonderful day,
Talib ben AbrahamTrue but however its seems the koran and the previous scriptures talks about 3 prayers a day. One in the morning and one in the evening and one in the middle between noon and sunset.
http//pressthat.wordpress.com/2007/09/21/salat-timings-of-quran/#comment-1083
