Under what circumstances believer can lie
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Peace Ijaz, everyone,
The plan was god's plan and not Youssef's plan as clear from 1276. Youssef revealed himself to his brother in 1269 prior to the whole episode. Since we don't know how the item went missing, Youssef could have indeed made his brother really take the missing item as part of the god's plan.
This is certainly not a lie. This is using irony as a rhetoric device. When I tell you "it was a cool 45 degrees C in the shade", this is obviously not a lie because everyone knows that this is not what I meant. It is a device to make you think more about how hot it is. It provokes a "wait a minute" kind of response as opposed to a "so what" kind. This is a normal rhetoric device that people use and it is not a lie.
For example, if I came to your computer and smashed all the number keys on your keyboard and I just left the 1 and 9. Knowing that I criticize your beloved numerology codes, you ask me if I did this with your numbers. I would reply, "it is the big 19 who did it. Go ask your Code 19, if it can speak". Well...you get the picture. Who knows, you may realize your folly or you may do like the people of Ibrahim. In this case you might "ask" your Code 19 by trying my name concatenated with the date of the incident and err... unfortnately it doesn't add up to a 19 divisible. But hey you add the missing 4 because your computer is a Pentium 4 and now it adds up to a 19 divisible!!! So this confirms to you that I must have done it. We are in the information age not the stone age (for some at least) so as you can see modern idolators are getting more and more creative and modern day idols can be made to appear to "answer"!
Good so you know very well that 7431 is clearly saying that the counting of 19 is ONLY an oppression/"fitna". Who is counting 19 everywhere? Not me.
Peace,
Ayman
The rhetoric he used is still a lie, per se. Are you saying it was an admission of guilt?
The plan was god's plan and not Youssef's plan as clear from 1276. Youssef revealed himself to his brother in 1269 prior to the whole episode. Since we don't know how the item went missing, Youssef could have indeed made his brother really take the missing item as part of the god's plan.
God's plan has no deception. Misguidance, yes, but deception, no -479.
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Salaam OPF,
The rhetoric he used is still a lie, per se. Are you saying it was an admission of guilt?
I agree with that.
God's plan has no deception. Misguidance, yes, but deception, no -479.
And I totally agree with this;
They commit a gross sin, then say, "We found our parents doing this, and GOD has commanded us to do it." Say, "GOD never advocates sin. Are you saying about GOD what you do not know?"
Kind Regards
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Attention is also invited
019041
YUSUFALI (Also mention in the Book (the story of) Abraham He was a man of Truth, a prophet.
PICKTHAL And make mention (O Muhammad) in the Scripture of Abraham. Lo! he was a saint, a prophet.
SHAKIR And mention Ibrahim in the Book; surely he was a truthful man, a prophet. -
Attention is also invited
019041
YUSUFALI (Also mention in the Book (the story of) Abraham He was a man of Truth, a prophet.
PICKTHAL And make mention (O Muhammad) in the Scripture of Abraham. Lo! he was a saint, a prophet.
SHAKIR And mention Ibrahim in the Book; surely he was a truthful man, a prophet.Thanks, I stand corrected. But how does that work against the original charge? Even though Abraham said the large idol did it, he got burnt, or they attempted to do so, was that an indirect admission of guilt?
The plan was god's plan and not Youssef's plan as clear from 1276. Youssef revealed himself to his brother in 1269 prior to the whole episode. Since we don't know how the item went missing, Youssef could have indeed made his brother really take the missing item as part of the god's plan.
There is still an element of deception there, towards the other brothers and every one else of the court.
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Dear OPF,
The testimony quoted was of no less than Allah. He said Ibrahim alaihissalm was a truthfull person. Ibrahim alaihissalam had also prayed that he should be rememered as a truthful person in time and space. {2684} and then Allah has announced that his reputation is that of a truthfull person {1950}.
The two points which are being discussed on the thread, there the translators have been quite casual and under the influence of Hadith of Bukhari. Can you presume that a person who had made his intentions known to the people in advance that night and had told them that he will do something with their lords, idols immediately after they go from him {2157-58}could lie or deny as to what he had done and announced before doing that? Kindly study for yourself the entire episode by concentrating on the words used in the Quran and Allah willing you will find that there is not an iota of truth what people have been saying on the strength of Hadith of Bukhari.
I have studied this topic at length but regret my inability at this point of time to put it in English. In Urdu it is available here if you could read/understand Urdu or some friend may convert that in English.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/book_1/17/slides/01.html
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Dear OPF,
The testimony quoted was of no less than Allah. He said Ibrahim alaihissalm was a truthfull person. Ibrahim alaihissalam had also prayed that he should be rememered as a truthful person in time and space. {2684} and then Allah has announced that his reputation is that of a truthfull person {1950}.
The two points which are being discussed on the thread, there the translators have been quite casual and under the influence of Hadith of Bukhari. Can you presume that a person who had made his intentions known to the people in advance that night and had told them that he will do something with their lords, idols immediately after they go from him {2157-58}could lie or deny as to what he had done and announced before doing that? Kindly study for yourself the entire episode by concentrating on the words used in the Quran and Allah willing you will find that there is not an iota of truth what people have been saying on the strength of Hadith of Bukhari.
I have studied this topic at length but regret my inability at this point of time to put it in English. In Urdu it is available here if you could read/understand Urdu or some friend may convert that in English.
I already understand I got caught up by the words, and forgot the context & actual scenario here.
I am more concerned with the story of Joseph.
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019041
YUSUFALI (Also mention in the Book (the story of) Abraham He was a man of Truth a prophet.Surely your translation for 1941 is incorrect, it is ;
Mention in the scripture Abraham; he was a saint, a prophet.
Also Abrahim did lie Abraham Proves His Point
He said, "It is that big one who did it. Go ask them, if they can speak."
However, he broke the statues..
How do you explain that..
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He said, "It is that big one who did it. Go ask them, if they can speak."
However, he broke the statues..
Brother this is very casual and irresponsible manner of translating the verses of Quran and reflects nothing but a preconceived notion and understanding of the event imprinted on the memory.
This is your perception what Sydena Ibrahim alaihissalm had told the managers of statues. But what was their perception about the statement of Sydena Ibrahim alahissalam is evident from their confessional statement
You O Ibrahim had known it yesterday night that they cannot speak.
too loudly negates the story of Bukhari and others.
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Brother this is very casual and irresponsible manner of translating the verses of Quran and reflects nothing but a preconceived notion and understanding of the event imprinted on the memory.
This is your perception what Sydena Ibrahim alaihissalm had told the managers of statues. But what was their perception about the statement of Sydena Ibrahim alahissalam is evident from their confessional statement
You O Ibrahim had known it yesterday night that they cannot speak.
too loudly negates the story of Bukhari and others.
Muzhar,
Basically you are saying "the reason justifies the mean" and I am saying opposite of that ie lieing is lieing no matter how and I confirmed this with Quran. Another confirmation is that no where in the Quran Abrahim is proclaimed to be Honest (either honest messenger or prophet) why because this is the book of truth and Abrahim was less then honest when he lied
Basing on your Hadith ridden idea that "the reason justifies the mean", don't you think the Hadith is misleading many, ie the Terrorists are also adopting this attitude ie there reason is that it is Jahad (reason), and any atrasity (means)is justifiable because of it.
This is one of the reason why we are only encouraged to follow the Quran;
Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things GOD has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Which Hadith, beside this, do they believe in?
The Quran is All We Need
In their history, there is a lesson for those who possess intelligence. This is not fabricated Hadith; this (Quran) confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a beacon and mercy for those who believe.
Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless Hadith, and thus divert others from the path of GOD without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution.
The Best Hadith
GOD has revealed herein the best Hadith; a book that is consistent, and points out both ways (to Heaven and Hell). The skins of those who reverence their Lord cringe therefrom, then their skins and their hearts soften up for GOD's message. Such is GOD's guidance; He bestows it upon whoever wills (to be guided). As for those sent astray by GOD, nothing can guide them.
Which Hadith?*
These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?
Regards
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Nowhere in al-quran does siddiq or its derivatives mean 'saint'
The appropriate definition of siddiqan is
one who is true and sincere or one who speaks the truth
Actually study the words of al-quran instead of insisting on replacing hadeeth with RK's translation
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Nowhere in al-quran does siddiq or its derivatives mean 'saint'
The appropriate definition of siddiqan is
one who is true and sincere or one who speaks the truth
Actually study the words of al-quran instead of insisting on replacing hadeeth with RK's translation
I will go along with "true and sincere", are not saints "true and sincere"??
I will not go with "man of Trurth" because once in Abrahim's life he had to lie under opression.. None the less he lied. There are no contridictions in the Quran, if you believe that Abrahim was always true then you are believing Hadith..
Rashad Khalifa was the messenger of the covenant, he must have been inspired to translate the verse in such a way.. Many more translations are also translated this way therefore he could not have been wrong..
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Look up the definition of 'saints'. It's more aligned with christianity and is kin to idolatry.
There are no contridictions in the Quran, if you believe that Abrahim was always true then you are believing Hadith..
rotfl
Rashad Khalifa was the messenger of the covenant, he must have been inspired to translate the verse in such a way
http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/submitters.htm
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Look up the definition of 'saints'. It's more aligned with christianity and is kin to idolatry.
I understand Rashad Khalifa's short comings and I am also familiar with his successes. And I believe the translation of this verse 1941 is his success and he is spot on.
Saint also means a person having lived a life of holiness and exceptional virtue. And this is the only reason the word "Saint" could have been used in this verse by Rashad. The usage of word "Saint" is in with line with the following verse, and Rashad did exceptionaly well in doing what he did ie spreading message to Christians, Jews, and converts..
Unity of All Submitters
Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
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I will go along with "true and sincere", are not saints "true and sincere"??
I will not go with "man of Trurth" because once in Abrahim's life he had to lie under opression.. None the less he lied. There are no contridictions in the Quran, if you believe that Abrahim was always true then you are believing Hadith..
Rashad Khalifa was the messenger of the covenant, he must have been inspired to translate the verse in such a way.. Many more translations are also translated this way therefore he could not have been wrong..
I have to rethink, his lie was transparent as glass. I forgot the context when I said he lied, but if I smashed up your room and keyboard, as Ayman said, and left the 1 and 9 keys on only, then told you it was the keyboard, ask it who did it, would you believe it?
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I have to rethink, his lie was transparent as glass. I forgot the context when I said he lied, but if I smashed up your room and keyboard, as Ayman said, and left the 1 and 9 keys on only, then told you it was the keyboard, ask it who did it, would you believe it?
You are just trying to make excuses for Abrahim. The fact is he lied, no matter what the reason is.
You are saying that "reason justifies the means", this is precisely what the Terrorists all around the world are using as an excuse to blow up innocent people.
Abrahim had choice, he could have said I did it, but he did not, he said the "Big one did it", it is beside the point why he did it, he still lied.
Do not be influenced by "reason justifies the means", lie is always a lie, and it does not justify the means..
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Basically you are saying "the reason justifies the mean" and I am saying opposite of that ie lieing is lieing no matter how and I confirmed this with Quran. Another confirmation is that no where in the Quran Abrahim is proclaimed to be Honest (either honest messenger or prophet) why because this is the book of truth and Abrahim was less then honest when he lied
Basing on your Hadith ridden idea that "the reason justifies the mean", don't you think the Hadith is misleading many, ie the Terrorists are also adopting this attitude ie there reason is that it is Jahad (reason), and any atrasity (means)is justifiable because of it.
It is true that most of the time one need not call an idiot and stupid a fool since they keep reflecting themselves.
It is the famous Hadith of Bukhari that Allah forbids Ibrahim aliahissalam had lied thrice in his life. Then he recaled two and forgot to mention or narrate the so called third lie.It would be stupid to presume and infer from earlier post like this
Basing on your Hadith ridden idea that "the reason justifies the mean",
. And it will be stupid on my part to argue with a person who compares Sidq with Alhaqo. Good day.